A Case for Pre-wrath rapture

[PastorHarrison]

No offense meant Ben, but 1260 days and the one week of Daniel couldn't be more plain....but one must be willing to see and believe the Bible.... I encourage you to reconsider but am confident that regardless, you're a saved man and a brother....will be entertaining to see your face and the look on it when you find out we got raptured before the trib and before you thought it'd happen :Green Then we'll throw manna at you at the marriage supper table and shout Glory!!

[Calvary]

Hi Ben,

I personally have a few ideas as to why the Lord uses the distinct phrases in the book of Revelation that pertain to time clues.
Why does the Lord say 1260 days, then why does He say 42 months, then why does he say Time, times and half a time? Why three days and a half? Have you ever thought that there is a reason for every word of God and that it's not just a whim? I trust that you do. I also trust the answer to those questions would iron out a lot of overlapping you have going. ;-)

I look forward to your response.

God bless,

Calvary

[PreacherBen]

Bro. Calvary,
I never think the Lord puts things in on a whim. What do you think, I would love to hear your ideas. I think EVERY WORD OF GOD is carefully handcrafted and put in place like art.

Ben

[Wilchbla]

There will be both a rapture before the tribulation and than one midway. The church, the body of Christ, will be raptured before the tribulation but the 144,000 will be raptured midway. You are dealing with two different groups.

[Invicta]

The Antichrist negotiates and enters with Israel into a 7 yr covenant with Israel AT the outset day 1 of the 70th week (the tribulation period). The reject this is to reject scripture....surely we're all agreed? If then the Anti-christ is to enter a 7 yr covenant at the beginning of the trib then it goes without saying he is alive, on the scene and has been revealed to the world.....and Israel has by that point reached a state of readiness for peace with her wicked Ishmaelite half brothers that surround her today.

There is nothing that says the Antichrist or anyone else will enter into a 7 year covenant with Israel. That is pure imagination.

[Wilchbla]

There is nothing that says the Antichrist or anyone else will enter into a 7 year covenant with Israel. That is pure imagination.

If you can read plain English there is.

[PreacherBen]

Wilchbla,

Let me say before we continue discussing, I am very teachable. I don't want this discussion to turn sour. Please show me the clear 7 year fomat for the tribulation. I do read, consider, and implement these thoughts into my personal study. Thank you, I appreciate you.

Bro. Ben

If you can read plain English there is.

[Invicta]

If you can read plain English there is.

The plain English I have no problem with, it is the interpretation that I do have problems with.

[PreacherBen]

I'm still actively engaged in study of a pre wrath rapture. I have made some corrections and additions to the original post (which is on my personal site.) I realize alot of this will be a duplication, but it contains more supporting scripture to consider.

................begin.........................

So, what does this mean, Pre-Wrath Rapture? Instead of the rapture taking place at the beginning of and marking the start of the tribulation, it will take place toward the end of the tribulation prior to time when God pours his wrath out on his enemies. Actually the end times will find the church in the tribulation period. There is a big difference between tribulation and God's wrath. The entire tribulation is not a time of God's wrath. God has never said Chritians would escape persecution or tribulation, but actually stated otherwise. Notice:

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

2Cor. 1:4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

But, God has promised that he would not subject believers to wrath,

1Thess 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1Thess 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to OBtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Before the time of JacOB's Trouble, the pouring out of God's wrath, Jesus will catch away (rapture) the believers, at the seventh (last) trump of the Revelation. This will be the end of the times of the Gentiles, the end of the mystery, the New Testament Bride of Christ, the church.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

When the Gentile era is complete, and the mystery of the New Testament church has been finished, the Lord will catch his bride away in the rapture. The Old Testament records this event also. Notice what the Lord said through the prophet Isaiah:

Isaiah 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

This O.T. passage shows the that event known as the first resurrection. Compare this verse with the following:

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

When Jesus comes in the air to resurrect the bodies of the dead saints, Israel will see him whom they pierced.

Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. .

When the Jews see Jesus when he comes to take the resurrected and the believers away, they will realize they have been wrong this last two thousand years and weep bitter tears of repentence. At that point God will wash away their sins.

Isa 27:9 By this therefore shall the iniquity of JacOB be purged; and this is all the fruit to take away his sin...

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from JacOB:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

God will bring the bride to the Judgment Seat of Christ and then the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. Israel will be called into hiding and the providential protection of God while he pours out his wrath.

Isaiah 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
Isaiah 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Jer 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of JacOB's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

Jesus told the believers that he was preparing a place that he would take them to when he comes again.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

The Lord prepared a place for us and will call his children out as he prepares for the Great Day of the Lord, Armageddon. This time of God's wrath is a short time. Zechariah the prophet spoke of the brevity of this time.

Zec 11:8 Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me.

Isaiah said more about this:

Isa 10:25 For yet a very little while, and the indignation shall cease, and mine anger in their destruction.

So we see that the time of God's wrath is a very short time at the end of the tribulation.

The Last Trump

Paul made it clear when the rapture would be, he said it would be at the last trump. If we will just compare scripture with scripture we will find that trumpet.

1Cor. 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Cor. 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It only makes sense, if Paul said the rapture would be at the last trump after the first resurrection, we should look in the Revelation for the last trump. We know of seven trumpets listed in the Revelation, and logic proves you have to have more than one trumpet for one to be refered to as the last trump. John recorded:

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

This same event is described in Rev. 14:14-16 and is refered to as the first harvest, notice:

Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Rev 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

This is not to be mistaken for the "second harvest," because that is refered to the gathering of the grapes of wrath.

Rev 14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Rev 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

This is the time of God's wrath.

So you see, there is no rapture at the beginning of the tribulation. The actual mark of the beginning of the tribulation is as follows:

2Thess. 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,
2Thess 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Thess 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: [that day shall not come],except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Most pre-trib teaching places these events after the rapture, but this is not so. The bible clearly tells us that there will be a "falling away" first, then "the man of sin will be revealed."

This is going to deceive the shallow professors who know not Christ, and stun the true believers who have put all their stock in the pre-trib rapture. It does not take a great theologian to see that the falling away is happening now all around us. Most reading this have received invitations to "new churches" openning in their area offering a gospel without repentance, a security without change, and entertainment just like the world instead of sOBer-minded preaching of God's word. The early church would have no prOBlem calling this apostacy, why don't we?

[Brother Rick]

Hey Ben,

Nice to see you again, I respect your opinion though I do cordially disagree with you. The pre-wrath rapture theory basically hangs on two words in one, single lone verse - "last trump". That's all. That's why I don't subscribe to it. I wish I had a great explanation for why Paul chose to call it the "last trump", but I admit I don't.

1. The wrath of God is poured out in droves during the entire tribulation, not just the last year or so which is what the pre-wrath rapture theory insinuates.

2. The "last trump" in Revelation is nothing more than a declaration that Christ is now king, it's at the very end of the tribulation. So, if Paul meant "last trump" as in the actual last trumpet to sound in Revelation that would mean that we fly out of here after going through ALL of the wrath of the tribulation. That would violate the verse that says we're saved from wrath.

3. The purpose of the tribulation is to bring the Jew back to a point where they can accept their Messiah. It has nothing to do with the Gentile church, and with John being called up to Heaven in Rev. 4:1 we see a picture of the rapture happening before the tribulation.

4. Then there's the can of worms reason - dare I crack it open - that a person in the tribulation that takes the mark goes to hell. It's wishful thinking to say no Christian will ever do that in the tribulation. In other words, they can lose it. We can't. (Rick runs for cover)

Edited April 1, 2010 by Rick Schworer

[Covenanter]

My comments in blue - I'll have a look at your 'Revelation' later.

Hey Ben,

Nice to see you again, I respect your opinion though I do cordially disagree with you. The pre-wrath rapture theory basically hangs on two words in one, single lone verse - "last trump". That's all. That's why I don't subscribe to it. I wish I had a great explanation for why Paul chose to call it the "last trump", but I admit I don't.

I've discussed this with Ben before. By my understanding of Scripture, the wrath to come is ultimately hell, for the unrepentant wicked.

1. The wrath of God is poured out in droves during the entire tribulation, not just the last year or so which is what the pre-wrath rapture theory insinuates.

The great tribulation is in its Mat. 24 context the tribulation inflicted on Jerusalem at the AD 70 destruction. It is the wrath of God against the generation that rejected its Messiah, & suffered accordingly.

The rapture is the resurrection at the last trump.

2. The "last trump" in Revelation is nothing more than a declaration that Christ is now king, it's at the very end of the tribulation. So, if Paul meant "last trump" as in the actual last trumpet to sound in Revelation that would mean that we fly out of here after going through ALL of the wrath of the tribulation. That would violate the verse that says we're saved from wrath.

That scenario is a development of the Darby/Scofield teaching, & is derived from a range of Scriptures, none of which teach it.

3. The purpose of the tribulation is to bring the Jew back to a point where they can accept their Messiah. It has nothing to do with the Gentile church, and with John being called up to Heaven in Rev. 4:1 we see a picture of the rapture happening before the tribulation.

Sadly, its purpose is the punishment of the generation that rejected its Messiah. To see Rev. 4 in that way, rather than seeing God in glory, & the triumphant Lion/Lamb is to remove Revelation from the context of its readers for whom it was written. (Rev. 1)

4. Then there's the can of worms reason - dare I crack it open - that a person in the tribulation that takes the mark goes to hell. It's wishful thinking to say no Christian will ever do that in the tribulation. In other words, they can lose it. We can't. (Rick runs for cover)

Believers are secure in Christ. We do suffer tribulation aka persecution, but the believing Jews were safely delivered from Jerusalem before the tribulation. They are represented by the 144,000.

[Brother Rick]

My comments in blue - I'll have a look at your 'Revelation' later.

I really hope that comment wasn't meant to be snide.


The great tribulation is in its Mat. 24 context the tribulation inflicted on Jerusalem at the AD 70 destruction. It is the wrath of God against the generation that rejected its Messiah, & suffered accordingly.

I agree to a certain point, the idea of JacOB's trouble is to refine and bring Israel to a point to where they will accept Christ as Saviour and Messiah.


I said: 2. The "last trump" in Revelation is nothing more than a declaration that Christ is now king, it's at the very end of the tribulation. So, if Paul meant "last trump" as in the actual last trumpet to sound in Revelation that would mean that we fly out of here after going through ALL of the wrath of the tribulation. That would violate the verse that says we're saved from wrath.

You Repied: That scenario is a development of the Darby/Scofield teaching, & is derived from a range of Scriptures, none of which teach it.

I have no idea what Darby or Scofield say about this, and I wouldn't base what I believe on a man's teaching without scripture to back it up. The second coming of Christ is divided into four seperate accounts in Revelation just like the first coming of Christ has four gospels. The 7th trumpet is the end of one of those accounts:

Rev. 11:15, "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

Believers are secure in Christ. We do suffer tribulation aka persecution, but the believing Jews were safely delivered from Jerusalem before the tribulation. They are represented by the 144,000.

Yes, believers are secure in Christ, and they do suffer perecution on this earth. They are also delivered from the wrath of God, therfore they are delivered from the wrath of God manifested in the first half of the tribulation in the form of wars, mass murder, genocide, famine, disease, starvation, etc. We're told to look for the blessed hope, not the antichrist.

Edited April 5, 2010 by Rick Schworer

[Covenanter]

I really hope that comment wasn't meant to be snide.

Certainly not. If you have taken the trouble to do a study, & refer us it would be discourteous not to look at it. I've had a quick look & will comment, I hope positively, though OBviously I won't agree on all points.

[Covenanter]

Revelation needs to be read alongside the allusions in the Old & New Covenant Scriptures.

My understanding of Revelation is that it is firmly within the Bible, & must be understood in line with other NT prophecy, & that the message to suffering Christians before the destruction should be an encouragement to all believers down the ages.

Rev 1:3 Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches;

When the Lord prophesied the destruction, he added this message for all of us:

Mark 13:33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
....
37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.