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Christian World View vs. Secular World View


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The Bible is clear that nations and/or people groups are held accountable collectively. Consider that when Babylon conquered and enslaved the Jews' date=' due to their disobeying the Lord, the righteous as well as the unrighteous were effected. [/quote']

Many thanks for both your comments, John. You point out in your second response that war takes place between nations and not individuals, that civilian casualties have always been a fact of war and that America does more to prevent civilian casualties than other nations. I wouldn't disagree with any of that--I was specifically talking about what civilian casualties in war actually represents.

If a civilian is killed in a battle who would not be killed if encountered one-on-one or put before a judge, then their death must be justified as part of a larger goal of vanquishing the enemy, on account of the fact that the enemy can't be destroyed without also killing civilians. That seems to me to be a case of 'the end justifies the means'. The end is the destruction of the enemy. The means is killing civilians. The means wouldn't be acceptable in of itself, but is justified by the end. If there's Biblical justification for it, that's fine, but doesn't that simply mean that there is sometimes a Biblical case for 'the end justifies the means'?

I'm not arguing against civilian casualties in war, btw.
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Just because a person is a civilian doesn't mean they are not the enemy. The enemy comprise the people/nation you are at war with, not just those who wear a uniform. The enemy comprises the entirity of the enemy people nation, civilian and soldier alike.

I'm not sure how familiar you are with history and warfare, but any idea that civilians are not a part of the enemy or are separate from war plans and aims is an almost exclusively European concept (which spread to European dominated lands) and was a relatively modern concept that has seen its ups and downs depending upon who was in power and the case at hand.

Villages, towns and cities (filled with civilians) have long been targets and a part of war.

I don't think in the case of war it's that the ends justify the means (although there are clear cases where the targetting of civilians is totally unnecessary to achieve ones war aims) but rather a part of war as a whole. Enemy civilians are just that, the enemy, and as such are subject to the consequences of war.

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Villages' date=' towns and cities (filled with civilians) have long been targets and a part of war.[/quote']

Again, I'm not disputing this is part of history. I've been told that allowing soldiers to rape and pillage was once-upon-a-time their payment for agreeing to fight. And of course some nations have gone to war with genocide as an aim; obviously in those circumstances civilians have been deliberately targeted. And even when they are not targeted, civilians get killed because they are in the way. Not disputing any of that.

Thanks for explaining that the idea of 'civilians' is a modern secular concept; I'm not familiar with warfare and didn't know this. So the Bible supports an older idea of 'total war' with all the people of a nation? Killing non-military is not a 'means to an end' after all, then, according to a Christian worldview.

Psalm 18_28: how is this conversation off-topic? We're talking about secular vs Christian ideas of war and also whether 'means to an end' is only part of a secular worldview. Seems to go directly back to OP.
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Would like to voice out my view: Is war, as a rule, really part of God's will? If yes, then why is it that in the Millennial Kingdom, and in Heaven there are no weapons?

"And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." - Isaiah 2:4

Isn't war all about destruction and killing? The Scriptures say, "Thou shalt not kill" (or rather, do no murder), and "Thou shalt not steal".

Why do wars even erupt in the first place?
- Some happen because of competition over resources.
- Some happen because of blind patriotism - that says, "My country, right or wrong".
- Some happen because of religion. NEVER the Biblical way because the gospel cannot be spread by the sword!

Very rarely are there any other reason apart from those. God only allowed OT Israel to overcome the pagans as a punishment for their disobedience to God's Word. The reverse (Israel's defeat) was true when Israel disobeyed God.

But today, wars happen almost all the time due to the fallen nature of Man - greed, pride and hatred of his fellow neighbor. It's not good for civilization as well - so much $ could be spent on building factories, cars, tools that benefit people (and not forget churches plus Bibles) - instead go to killing machines.

I'm not saying that pacifism is good, but war should be primarily for defence rather than offence. So killing of innocents and civilians - not a good idea. It's for defending the weak and needy, and not for slaughtering them.

This totally fits the Biblical worldview: "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world." (James 1:27)

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War is not a part of God's pefect will but in this fallen world God uses war just as He uses wicked weather, sickness and the wicked schemes of the devil and sinners to bring about His will.

The book of Joshua is filled with examples of how God used war to punish those in Canaan. We also have many examples in Scripture of God using war to chastise wayward Israel.

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