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well, that is a better answer than "drums are evil" but a sound can not be evil. No matter how fast or loud. As long as the music does not go against God's word then nothing is wrong with it.

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[quote]
Saying a specific style of music is ungodly is like saying a specific language is ungodly.
[/quote]

Music [b]is[/b] a language. Just as some words in the English (or any other Christian) are not appropriate for use by the Christian, so are some sounds not appropriate in the language of music.

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A certain sound doesn't make music. Music is a combination of sounds that [i]says something.[/i] Music in general is a language, but as soon as you specify a style, you are specifying some things about the content of the message. If you say something is written in English, it doesn't tell you much. If I say I'm writing a business letter, an essay, a novel, a newspaper article, or a love letter, it's more specific.

I think we can all agree that language can be used in a way that glorifies God, or in a way that is sinful. Not because a language is sinful, but because it can communicate a message that is wrong. To say that a piece of music is amoral is to deny that music has any meaning in and of itself.

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What it comes down to is that there are some with very liberal standards, who don't like others drawing the line in a way that contradicts them. It doesn't matter how many reasons you can come up with why Rock music is wrong, they want to listen to it, so will justify it anyway they can. Because there is no specific verse that says "Thou shalt not listen to Rock music," they think that they are fine where they stand. Never mind the fact that satan was involved in leading music in Heaven - and the fact that he has 6000 years on any of us - who are we to say that any type of music is wrong or has evil influences? (Like Satan is really not going to twist something he know so much about to lead others astray!) :roll:

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[quote="Jerry"]
What it comes down to is that there are some with very liberal standards, who don't like others drawing the line in a way that contradicts them.
[/quote]

It seems to me that you do not like the line the bible has drawn when it comes to this matter. The bible says that God made all things and that it was good. I am not looking for a verse in the bible that says "Rock music is bad" There is no verse that even points in that direction and in fact there are many verses that say the complete opposite! Look at 1 Corinthians 8 and 10, please look at it with an honest heart. If you do then you can not honestly tell me the bible condemns rock music because it is associated with "evil". These passages say that it is okay to eat meat sacrificed to idols as long as it does not cause another to stumble or violate your own conscience. The same verse applies to a genre of music that may have sinful stigmas tagged to it. If we look at the bible from an exegetical stand point we can come up with no other answer. You are the one making the eisogetical statements, not me.

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There are Biblical principles regarding musical choices in many different threads on this website - however you choose not to accept any of them. Does that mean we are wrong about this? Not necessarily. If you applied Scriptural principles consistently in all your other standards, you might not have as hard a time seeing where we are coming from on this one.

How about "Be not conformed to this world?"

How about "Love not the world?"

How about "Abstain from fleshly lusts?" The rock beat appeals to the flesh. Even unsaved musicians will attest to that - it is only the professing, worldly Christians that have a problem when other Christians repeat the same claims. Though we know what fleshly music does to us!

How about "Abtain from all appearance of evil?" When you got the Christian's performing the same music as the lost world, there is something wrong.

How about principles of separation?

Holiness?

Godliness?

Christ-likeness?

Seems Moses and Joshua knew there was a difference between God's music and Satan's music - yet the average professing Christian states there is none. Who is wrong - God who put Exodus 32 in our Bibles - or you?

By the way, your reference to Genesis one is not applicable here - that was stated BEFORE sin entered into the world, so to use it to imply that all things are good or even amoral is wrong.

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I, for one, have never run across a single convincing argument for the neutrality of music. And if you want to be free to choose whatever music you like, you have to prove that music is neutral... which you can't. And since music itself isn't neutral, you have to draw a line somewhere. Most people don't want to draw a line at all.

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[quote="termite"]
you have to draw a line somewhere. Most people don't want to draw a line at all.
[/quote]

How true! Most people draw the line according to their own [i]preferences[/i], not according to [i]convictions [/i]based on Bible principles.

How about looking at it from the opposite viewpoint: Whatsoever is not of faith is sin!

Just doing what you want - if it is not of faith (ie. based on the Word of God), then it is sin.

Are there Biblical principles that you (ie. anyone reading this) have based your choice of music on? I can honestly say that there are principles for why I reject rock/CCM (and certain other types of music) and why I choose the music I do listen to.

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Once again you show me no biblical basis for any of this. You say "live a holy life" who determines what a holy life is? God determines that, not man. You say "do not appeal to the flesh" How am I being sinful in listening to rock music? Are you not allowed to enjoy anyhting that makes you feel good. There is nothing wrong with feeling good within God's standards and as far as the bible is concerned this is within God's standards. I believe Jesus spoke of people like you, he called them pharisees.

As long as it fits your presuppositions its okay, huh? Well, I am sorry but God is the only standard and his word is truth, not your opinions that you like to call fact. Jesus is Lord, there is no truth outside of him.

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Hello All!

I am a percussionist,playing the conga drums and other hand drums(bongo drums,djembe,doumbek,and frame drums) as the music requires at my church's 11am service.

I began playing about 30 years ago and for most of those years,I played for a few churches that I was a member of and have been at my current church for 3 years.

I

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[quote="Mr.Frodo"]
I believe Jesus spoke of people like you, he called them pharisees.
[/quote]

:lol: Seems that's the typical response you have to anyone who has standards in any area!

The Bible teaches we are to live holy and godly in this present world - but if anyone gives any specific examples, you brand them as a Pharisee.

1 Timothy 6:3-4 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

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Dale McNamee, I think your post just about wraps up the whole thread! There are some people here that like twisting the scriptures around to justify their own preferences. They probably meant well, though.

It's my personal belief that no pattern of notes, rhythm, or melody is inherently evil. A beat is not a sin, nor is the use of a drum. They will say your ministry is of the world, that it is an appearances of evil (without understanding the definition of the greek word that was translted from appearances), they will say that you are unholy, ungodly, and not christ-like. They can twist and chop verses up to show that you are a wicked sinner for using them--- but I hope your ministry as a percusionist for the Lord is blessed.

Dont be discouraged! Keep up the Good Work! I will be praying for you!

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I maintain that to say that music CANNOT be wrong is to say that it is meaningless. If someone claims that music is meaningless, I can only conclude either that they are being stubborn about the point because to concede it would force them to admit the need for music standards, or that they are so hopelessly tone deaf that they haven't even the most basic understanding of the musical language.

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I don't have the verses for it right off the top of mine head, but they are surely there to be found with some digging. :D

Have you ever heard of the principles::::::

***Music is the universal language of the soul.

***There is nothing new under the sun.

***As a man thinketh in his heart so is he.

***Cheerful melodies in the heart make the soul to rejoice.

We could pick any one of those and dig carefully through God's Pure an Holy Word and find precepts and case histories to support the premise that music that glorifies God is specific, and very ANTI-neutral.

Here's an idea::: :idea:

All of you that think that music (instrumental only) is only neutral and generic, build a case using as many Scripture verses to back up your thesis, and we who believe that the combinations of the notes, [size=16][color=darkred][i][b]timbre [/b][/i][/color][/size](don't [i]even[/i] forget that one), timing, and rhythm (no lyrics) are very specific to a spiritual culture (whether Godly or ungodly) will do the same. Are you all up for the challenge????????

**********************

Here's a tidbit to whet the cutting edge::::

The rock music beat (rhythm only, no lyrics) that the Beatles used in their songs of the nineteen sixties and seventies is the very same beat and rhythm that the [size=16][color=darkred][i][b]Druids used many centuries ago during the Satanic ceremonies wherein they performed their human sacrifices.[/b][/i][/color][/size]

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[quote]
It's my personal belief that no pattern of notes, rhythm, or melody is inherently evil.
[/quote]

Is it also your belief that no pattern of thoughts is inherently evil? Is it your belief that no emotions are inherently evil? Music has been and always will be a reflection of the thoughts and emotions of the person who wrote it and the person who is performing it.

[quote]
A beat is not a sin, nor is the use of a drum.
[/quote]

Beat: All music must have rhythm. However, the rhythm must be kept under control. If you look at the three parts of music (melody, harmony, and rhythm), melody has been--for most of history--the [b]only[/b] acceptable part of music to use for worshiping God.

Drums: Any musical instrument is simply that: an instrument. An instrument requires someone or something to use it. I have no problem with any drum, as long as it is used in a way that is pleasing to God.

[quote]
that it is an appearances of evil (without understanding the definition of the greek word that was translted from appearances)
[/quote]

I already addressed this on another thread. Your definition is much different than the one I see.

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[quote="hermanj"]
[quote]It's my personal belief that no pattern of notes, rhythm, or melody is inherently evil.
[/quote]

Is it also your belief that no pattern of thoughts is inherently evil? Is it your belief that no emotions are inherently evil? Music has been and always will be a reflection of the thoughts and emotions of the person who wrote it and the person who is performing it.

[quote]
A beat is not a sin, nor is the use of a drum.
[/quote]

Beat: All music must have rhythm. However, the rhythm must be kept under control. If you look at the three parts of music (melody, harmony, and rhythm), melody has been--for most of history--the [b]only[/b] acceptable part of music to use for worshiping God.

Drums: Any musical instrument is simply that: an instrument. An instrument requires someone or something to use it. I have no problem with any drum, as long as it is used in a way that is pleasing to God.

[quote]
that it is an appearances of evil (without understanding the definition of the greek word that was translted from appearances)
[/quote]

I already addressed this on another thread. Your definition is much different than the one I see.[/quote]

Hey, there's absolutely nothing wrong with viewing that verse the way you do. In fact,it's usually best to err on the side of concervatism. Just look at the Amish. I have nothing against their lifestyle. In fact, I bet they live much more holy lives than us.

I'm just saying we shouldn't be attacking a music that was made for Christ because we personally don't like the way it sounds. As far as evil thoughts- the bible says our hearts are desperately wicked. But joyful noise lifted up to Christ for his glory- I don't think you can say that it's a thought and therefore is wicked.

But I think we can agree on these things:

There is a lot of Christian music that is performed for the glory of man, not for the glory of God- and probably more so for Christian Rock. Music was made before the beginning (creation) and should be made for ever for the glory of God. It's unfortunate that man gets up there and is glorified instead of Christ. So I think most of us can agree with that.

We can also agree that much of the Christian Rock is around to stir the flesh, and not our soul. We can agree with that too.

My view is that music should be performed for the glory of God and only for him. Not man, not ourselves. Only God. We shouldn't play it or not play it because we like or dislike the sound of it. It's for God, not us.

I hope that sums up my view :).

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[quote]
Just look at the Amish. I have nothing against their lifestyle. In fact, [b]I bet they live much more holy lives than us[/b].
[/quote]

Hehehehehe, you'd lose that bet. :wink:

Do you work daily with the Amish and Mennonites??? I do.

Do you live right beside them??? I do.

Do you see them in operation in their family life everyday, day in, day out??? I do.

They are people just like any other people. The thing that you have to remember is that they have invented their own religion (a [i]form[/i] of Hyper-Armenianism), and even though they name the name of God as we do, they don't believe at all the way we do. They'll use the same words we do, and all that does is cause great confusion.

Do you know what a hoedown is??? Praise God I only know this one intuitively, and [i][b]NEVER[/b][/i] experientially.

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No one said anything about not liking rock. I daresay a lot of people here who were saved as adults really like it. As you said, Kubel, whether we like something or not is irrelevant. The fact that I don't like something doesn't make it wrong, any more than the fact that I do like something would make it right. (I can say with a clear conscience that my stand on rock music has nothing to do with my personal tastes.)

[quote]
But joyful noise lifted up to Christ for his glory- I don't think you can say that it's a thought and therefore is wicked.
[/quote]

If music is neutral, then it has no message. Empty sounds do not glorify God. The Bible says we should sing with UNDERSTANDING as well as the spirit. The fact is, music is a language, and unless it is made up of nonsense sounds, it DOES convey thoughts. (Otherwise, l may as well just pack up my piano and become an accountant.! lol)

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[quote]
The fact is, music is a language...
[/quote]

Absolutely right, Termite. :D

It is the universal language of the soul.

Kubel,

By our own free-will we can use that language to Glorify God or glorify the devil. The choice is ours. It is for this very reason that the music that Glorifies God is full of content, depth of meaning and melodious of harmony, completely without a raucous and over-accentuated beat ot rhythm.

The men and women that have written the most beautiful and heart-stirring songs went through some pretty heavy trials in their life. Those trials brought them to the level of knowing God wherein they would be capable of speaking their song from the heart. You just don't find that depth and content in CCM or so-called Christian Rap.

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[quote="pneu-engine"]
You just don't find that depth and content in CCM or so-called Christian Rap.
[/quote]

I agree. Nothing beats a good old hymn.

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