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You're welcome, Jerry! I'm glad my music-geekiness could be of service! :mrgreen:

re: slurring and scooping
Slurring and scooping aren't the same thing. Slurs are marks that tell you to play notes legato, or smoothly connected. That is, with no silence between the two notes, as opposed to playing the notes detached from each other. Scooping has nothing to do with slurring, and isn't found much in classical music. Scooping refers to the way in which a singer hits a pitch. If a singer is, say, trying to hit a C, a classically trained singer would aim straight for the C. A pop singer will often hit a pitch slightly below C, and slide up to C.

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[quote="termite"]
You're welcome, Jerry! I'm glad my music-geekiness could be of service! :mrgreen:

re: slurring and scooping
Slurring and scooping aren't the same thing. Slurs are marks that tell you to play notes legato, or smoothly connected. That is, with no silence between the two notes, as opposed to playing the notes detached from each other. Scooping has nothing to do with slurring, and isn't found much in classical music. Scooping refers to the way in which a singer hits a pitch. If a singer is, say, trying to hit a C, a classically trained singer would aim straight for the C. A pop singer will often hit a pitch slightly below C, and slide up to C.
[/quote]

Thanks for the info. I was always under the impression that they were both the same.

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[quote="Bakershalfdozen"]
Sorry, but I have never heard any slurring or scooping in classical music - only in Southern Gospel and CCM.
[/quote]

Classical has slurring in it. From what I understand with Termites post, I don't think scooping is al all common in Souther Gospel.

Give us an example of what you are talking about scooping in Southern Gospel.

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I clearly see the points that everyone is trying to make here. But I can give you a list of several rock artists and even metal groups that have cut entire albums without the use of drums. In fact, a trend that is taking place is artists recording accoustic versions of their previous albums, without drums. Drums don't define rock music. Drums don't define country, nor to they define jazz, R&B, or any type of music.

I can also tell you that in most modern rock music (mostly in metal) that the drums played do not keep a beat. They are played so fast, that they merely provide an accent to the rest of the musical instruments being played.

It is my firm belief that God uses all mediums of music to spread his word. I think that most everyone's arguements have less to do with whether or not the music is glorifying to Christ, and more to do with the fact that it goes against fundamentalist tradition.

I've seen masses of people led to Christ at music events to know that God uses all forms.

I even had a friend that wouldn't listen to anything but heavy metal (mostly industrial metal). Everything in his music collection was Satanic. I finally came across a christian metal group (i won't use any names because I realize the policy of this site is not to promote this kind of music), and bought him a CD. It didn't take him very long afterwards to burn all the satanic trash he had, start going to church, accept christ as his savior, and start witnessing to others. All because a certain style of music was so powerful that it spoke to his heart, and made him realize that he needed to start living his life differently.

Go to a skate park, and blast some hymns, and see how many people pay attention to you. You'd be wasting your time. Now, play some chritian punk. Now see how many individuals approach you, ask you who's the group your playing, and you'd be suprised how many individuals are led to Christ. I've seen this happen because I've worked with local christian alternative radio stations that have set up remote broadcasting stations right outside of skate parks during big events.

I know that I kinda got off the subject of drums, but I thought I'd share that with everyone nonetheless.

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[b]What you convert them with, you convert them to.[/b]

Let's see where all these punks and heacy metal guys that got influenced and "saved" as a direct result of giving them their worldliness and calling it Christian - let's see where they are five years from now. Maybe they were your converts and not the Lord's.

The Bible doesn't say to use the world's method's to reach the lost. No one is saying use hymns to reach those who are so used to rock - [b]you don't convert someone through music or entertainment, but through the preaching of the Word of God.[/b]

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I have never heard a drum set used other than to make the beat the dominant force in a piece of music, and usually that beat is intensely syncopated. If other instruments or voices are used to produce the same effect, then it is just as wrong. I don't personally think drums themselves are inherently evil; I just don't know of a drum set ever being used for good!

jmwhiten, your friend was [i]already[/i] listening to heavy metal; therefore I doubt it was the music that influenced him- if anything, I would say it was the words of the song that spoke to him. Music itself isn't a tool of evangelization.

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[quote="termite"]
I have never heard a drum set used other than to make the beat the dominant force in a piece of music, and usually that beat is intensely syncopated. If other instruments or voices are used to produce the same effect, then it is just as wrong.
[/quote]

I agree! I had a CD by a group called Glad - which does acappella. This particular album was hymns - but they made vocal sounds like there were drums in the background. Whether it was actual drums or the sound of drums, there was that syncopation you are talking about. (Glad you know all these music terms - I know what you mean, but I couldn't describe it the same way if I tried! :wink: )

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[quote="Jerry"]
Let's see where all these punks and heacy metal guys that got influenced and "saved" as a direct result of giving them their worldliness and calling it Christian - let's see where they are five years from now. Maybe they were your converts and not the Lord's.
[/quote]
Actually, I can tell you where quite a few of them are right now. One of them has been an active member of our church for the past 8 years. Some stay in our church, and some go on to other churches. Another went to a church on the other side of town and is now one of the guitar players for the church. And since more than most that I've personally gotten to know have truely dedicated their lives to serving Christ (ie, have entered the ministry, or actively witness to others, and share God's word, take active roles in serving Christ by helping other churches, and spread the love of Christ, or just simply help to equip other new believers for the work of Christ), then I would say they were the Lord's converts, not mine. But way to go, putting the word saved in quotation marks in a way that questions the true sincerity of their hearts when they accepted Christ as Saviour. Hopefully I can get at least one to send me their testimony, and you can judge their heart from that, and determine whether or not they are truely saved.

[quote]
The Bible doesn't say to use the world's method's to reach the lost.
[/quote] Well, this again falls into an area in which we disagree about whether or not certain forms of Christian music are of the world.

[quote]
[b]you don't convert someone through music
[/quote] Music is a powerful medium. It speaks to your emotions. A good example is a song played in a melancholy tone. This particular song wouldn't speak to individuals the same if it was played in any other way. It is about a person that is singing about how they have spent so long denying Christ. But the main chorus goes like this:

"Well I can't take the pain,
Knowing that I left you
And I can't bare the shame
Of knowing I was wrong
But I'll take the blame for everything that I've done
But I can't take the pain of leaving you alone"

okay, no big deal on the chorus, I understand that. But the song slows down even further, and one of the versus that follows goes like this:

"So I'm off to follow in your steps
It won't be easy, it's safe to say
Only two roads I can walk on down
The one less traveled is the one you paved"

Okay, a little emotional, but not too bad. The chorus is played right after this again.

The next part is again, the chorus, but it has been changed a bit:

[b]"Lord, you took the pain
Even though I left you
And you took the shame, and you made it all your own
Why'd you take the blame for everything that I've done?
Lord, you took the pain, you and you alone
You and you alone."[/b]

Now it became personal, especailly for someone who may have spent their life denying Christ. Well, I also have a story that goes along with this song. An individual, one of the musicians at the church, performed this song on a Sunday night with some other members of the church's band. This individual had also invited one of his unsaved friends to church to watch him sing. His friend showed up halfway through the service, because he only came to watch him play guitar and sing. He sat through the remaining portion of the service, and through the invitation. It was a special night that night, because this night was an extended service for nothing but praise and worship. This friend sat through some of the praise and worship songs, and then it finally came time for the performance he came to see. He sat through the whole entire song, until that last changed chorus was played. He dropped to his knees in his pue, and wept. He didn't wait for the next invitation that was later given that night. He walked straight down one of the isles, found the pastor, pointed to his friend, and said, "I want what he has. I want this thing you called salvation." When he talked about that song later, he said, "I don't know what it was, but there was something about that last verse. My eyes began to water when he sang [b]'Lord you took the pain, even though I left you, and you took the shame, and you made it all your own'[/b], but it's when he sang [b]'Why'd you take the blame for everything that I've done? Lord, you took the pain, you and you alone'[/b]that I could no longer stand. My knees buckled, and I could no longer hold back my tears and control my emotions."

He said this was the most beautiful song he has ever heard because it spoke directly to him, and no song has ever done that before. This song was played with an accoustic guitar, an electric base, and a set of drums.

Can music lead someone to Christ. In most cases, no, but it can plant the seed that makes that individual take the first steps toward accepting Christ in his/her life.
[quote]
or entertainment
[/quote]
Do you deny that the Passion of the Christ planted the seed in some, and caused them to seek Jesus? I know of more than one individual who went to church seeking answers after they saw this movie, and later accepted Christ as Savior.

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The Passion effected people's emotions - it did not present the Gospel. It has been one of the most widely used tools of the devil this past year. It has brought many into Catholicism, and encouraged many others to become more religious. Yes, God may have used this influence in the lives of some to get their attention and cause them to think about how they may be treating the Lord or what He could have gone through - but that is because of His grace and responding to someone's sincere search for Him - not because the movie is in any sense a tool of God.

I could watch a horror movie and be frightened of dying, and that could cause me to resolve the issue of where I am going after I die. That movie would have been an influence, but it certainly wasn't the movie that saved me or had any part in my salvation - nor was it a tool of God.

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[quote="Jerry"]
The Passion effected people's emotions - it did not present the Gospel. It has been one of the most widely used tools of the devil this past year. It has brought many into Catholicism, and encouraged many others to become more religious. Yes, God may have used this influence in the lives of some to get their attention and cause them to think about how they may be treating the Lord or what He could have gone through - but that is because of His grace and responding to someone's sincere search for Him - not because the movie is in any sense a tool of God.
[/quote]

I could use the same approach, and say that your chruch has driven people away from Christ, and caused them to point their finger and say "those dudes are wacko!" Or that other baptist churches have caused others to renew their faith in Catholicism. Does this make your church, or any other church a tool of the devil? I realize that this movie didn't present the Gospel, nor did it tell the story in it's entirety with accuracy. But you admit that the movie could have gotten the attention of an individual to seek out answers, and then later be led to Christ.

I know of even more individuals who are saved, but strayed, and this movie caused them to see how foolish it was to stray, and rededicate their lives to the service of Christ.

Just for the record. I didn't like this movie. I saw it in the theater, and told myself I was thankful for the experience, but would never watch it again.

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[quote="jmwhiten"]
I could use the same approach, and say that your chruch has driven people away from Christ, and caused them to point their finger and say "those dudes are wacko!" Or that other baptist churches have caused others to renew their faith in Catholicism. Does this make your church, or any other church a tool of the devil?
[/quote]

Your accusation would be groundless, as you know nothing whatsoever about my church - on the other hand, I have done a lot of research on that movie, and my accusation regarding it in light of Scripture is not.

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[quote="Jerry"]
[quote="jmwhiten"]I could use the same approach, and say that your chruch has driven people away from Christ, and caused them to point their finger and say "those dudes are wacko!" Or that other baptist churches have caused others to renew their faith in Catholicism. Does this make your church, or any other church a tool of the devil?
[/quote]

Your accusation would be groundless, as you know nothing whatsoever about my church - on the other hand, I have done a lot of research on that movie, and my accusation regarding it in light of Scripture is not.[/quote]

If you believe for one second that lost individuals don't drive by your church, my church, or any church, and say to themselves, their friends, and/or their family "look at those right-wing, christian nut-jobs, let's not stop in fear one of those bible-thumpers comes and tries to shove Jesus down our throats" then you have a misconstrued view of the world.

Huisache Ave Baptist Church, an IFB chruch in San Antonio Texas has pushed a fair share of individuals back into the Catholic, the Methodist church, or completely away from any church. These individuals had their toes stepped on in some way shape or form by another individual in the church, or the pastor, and that caused them to leave.

But this is way off topic. I appologize for taking the topic elsewhere. The topic is drums, and drums in Christian music.

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[quote="jmwhiten"]
If you believe for one second that lost individuals don't drive by your church, my church, or any church, and say to themselves, their friends, and/or their family "look at those right-wing, christian nut-jobs, let's not stop in fear one of those bible-thumpers comes and tries to shove Jesus down our throats" then you have a misconstrued view of the world.
[/quote]

[b]No doubt those who hate God and His Word will find any reason to reject a Bible-based church.[/b] My point was for [i]you [/i]to make a statement like that against my church would be groundless. I don't care what the lost think about those serving the Lord and preaching His Word.

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It happens in every chruch, regardless of denomination, or doctrinal beliefs. The pastor can slip, and say something without tact, and personally offend another member, or group of members, or even an entire family. Or another member can offend some other member, to the point where someone quits attending the church. Or maybe a member slips in his/her walk with Christ, and gossip spreads the incident like wild fire through the whole church, blows it out of proportion, and as the story gets passed from person to person, it gets totally twisted, and the member is so embarassed, that they quit going to church all together. I could sit here and type out situations all day, that one, and if not, maybe all, have happened in every church all over the world.

Your church is not perfect, nor is any church perfect. Sinners make up the members of the church. Members are the Church. And if a member of your church has caused anyone to stumble in their walk with Christ (and I guarantee that it has happened in some way shape or form, and it won't be the last time either), then your church is guilty of causing someone to stumble (whether that be to stray from God's path, quit going to chruch, or start attending a church that doesn't honor and glorify Christ). If this were to happen in any way shape or form (which I would bet that in some way, it has) does this make your church a tool of the devil? Is Huisache Ave. Baptist Church in San Antonio a tool of Satan?

Believers everyday use a KJV Bible to justify their own sins in their lives by their own misinterpretations of scripture. Non-believers continue not to believe because of their own misinterpretation of scripture. Does this make the KJV Bible a tool of Satan?

Your church isn't perfect. But God still uses your church for His purpose.

Man isn't perfect, but God still uses man for his purpose.

You aren't perfect. But God still uses you for His purpose.

The Passion wasn't perfect. But God still uses it for His purpose. And I've seen people led to Christ because of that very movie.

Not all Hymns are perfect. In fact, some aren't sang in our chruch simply because they do not reflect sound doctrine. But God still uses hymns.

Not all Christian Praise and Worship, and what ever other labels you wanna slap on it, is perfect. But God still uses it.

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Yes, God can use the most unlikely things for good. For example, Joseph and his brothers; we all know what happened there. They meant only to do evil to Joseph, but God used the situation for good. [i]However,[/i] the end didn't justify the means. Their actions were still sinful. Simply put, just because God can use a thing doesn't make that thing right.

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[quote="Jerry
The Bible doesn't say to use the world's method's to reach the lost.[/b][/quote]

Jerry,
Can you provide a verse for this?

I don't believe that all "worldly methods" are sinful. Jerry explain how this following example is wrong

A public school has a basketball tournament to raise money for whatever reason.

A Christian school/church has a basketball tournament to give out the gospel.


Jerry in music it is not the instrument that determins if it is worldly or not, it is how that instrument is used.

The same thing for methods. Most methods in and of themselves are not bad (baskeball tourney) but how you use that method.

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Auburn, my statement was not made in reference to drums, but in using rock music (in whatever form) to reach the lost. I am 100% convinced rock music is wrong - whether or not there are drums in it. It is not music that saves, and most of these groups that are supposedly winning the lost at their concerts do not have enough Gospel or clarity IN their music itself to have an influence on the lost. What they get is the sensual beat of the music - and that is what effects them. That is why the world likes rock music - it appeals to the flesh. Put a rock CD on - even an instrumental one - and watch a one or two year old enjoy it and boogie to it. You don't need to teach them how to dance sensually, they do it to the beat.

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I agree. In my mind, using rock music under the pretense of evangelization is comparable to using immodest pictures to popularize tracts.

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[quote="Jerry"]
Auburn, my statement was not made in reference to drums, but in using rock music (in whatever form) to reach the lost. I am 100% convinced rock music is wrong - whether or not there are drums in it. It is not music that saves, and most of these groups that are supposedly winning the lost at their concerts do not have enough Gospel or clarity IN their music itself to have an influence on the lost. What they get is the sensual beat of the music - and that is what effects them. That is why the world likes rock music - it appeals to the flesh. Put a rock CD on - even an instrumental one - and watch a one or two year old enjoy it and boogie to it. You don't need to teach them how to dance sensually, they do it to the beat.
[/quote]

Jerry,

What I wrote was in response to what you said about using worldly methods and I gave an example of using a worldly method to minister. I think that you can use music as a method to get people into church or a special service to hear the gospel which is nothing wrong in that.

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[quote="Jerry"]
Put a rock CD on - even an instrumental one - and watch a one or two year old enjoy it and boogie to it. You don't need to teach them how to dance sensually, they do it to the beat.
[/quote] I've seen a two year old "boogie" down to "Father Abraham" "Itsy Bitsy Spider" "BINGO" and "This little light of Mine"

2 Samuel 6:14 - And David danced before the LORD

Exodus 15:20 - And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand; and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dances.

Psalms 149:3 - Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp.

Psalms 150:4 - Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs

Ecclesiastes 3:4 - A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;

Jeremiah 31:13 - Then shall the virgin rejoice in the dance, both young men and old together: for I will turn their mourning into joy, and will comfort them, and make them rejoice from their sorrow.


2 Samuel 6:16 - And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal Saul's daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD

Psalms 30:11 - Thou hast turned for me my mourning into dancing: thou hast put off my sackcloth, and girded me with gladness;

Luke 15:25 - Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.

Now, I in no way condone the filth that goes on in a club. But if the music makes you wanna move parts of your body, even if it is in joy of the Lord, it's still of the world, and appeals to the flesh? Now, rock music doesn't make me wanna dance. It makes me wanna grab my guitar and bust out some tunes. But clearly, dancing is seen as a joyous occasion before the Lord.

So drums, and modern music is bad because it makes you wanna move your feet? Does my KJV bible not read the same as yours, or did I misinterpret what I read?

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Jm, quit making the type of distinction in modern music that you keep making. [b]No one here is against a song written and played today.[/b] [b]We [i]are [/i]against CCM [/b](which is a certain genre of music - Christian rock, so to speak) [b]and secular rock[/b] - we are not against new music or songs.

Auburn, it is one thing to use godly music, it is another thing to use rock music.

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[quote="auburn_tiger"]
What I wrote was in response to what you said about using worldly methods and I gave an example of using a worldly method to minister. I think that you can use music as a method to get people into church or a special service to hear the gospel which is nothing wrong in that.
[/quote] It would be my belief that if the music embodies the love of Christ, regardless of what instrunments are used, or the style in which they are played, it isn't a worldly method, but God's method. I know that alot here would disagree, as do most IFB. But we are starting to see a move away from that. A gurantee, as slowly as most IFB churches are letting praise and worship songs into their services, next century, when the style of music has vastly changed, that IFB churches will be saying that if it isn't 20th/21st century praise and worship, then it doesn't belong in church.

In some ways, I'm reminded of the old man sitting at the dinner table, popping his dentures into his mouth so he can speak, and then telling the young ones "I'll tell you something about those dagburn computers. They're evil I tell ya! I remember when we did everything with a pen and paper. It was easier and more efficient! These dagburn computers have only made things more complicated. They'll lead to mankind's own destruction, you just wait and see"

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[quote="Jerry"]
Auburn, it is one thing to use godly music, it is another thing to use rock music.
[/quote]

Jerry,

I agree. But music albeit plays an important part, is another method that can be used to draw someone to come and here the gospel just like having a basketball tourney.

Here is an example of using music.

A few months ago my wife and I went to see Greater Vision in concert. They mostly play in churches and do 5 different cruises a year. The one they just had was a Bible Study Cruise with Dr. Charles Stanley. About half way through the pastor got up and preached for about 30 mins. This was in conection with some big week at the church. The preaching was good and if memory serves me it was an edifying type of sermon. It was not evangelistic and was not design to be so.

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JM,

I would be very careful as to what style of music I would want in my church. I don't like most CCM because it sounds too much like rock music, i.e. Petra, DcTalk, POD, and others.

I would also be careful as to what instruments I would have in the chruch. I don't have a problem with using an electric guitar, drums, bass guitar ect. but I don't think it would convey a proper setting for a church setting. I also don't have a problem with using tracks that have these instruments being used.

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[quote="Jerry"]
Jm, quit making the type of distinction in modern music that you keep making. [b]No one here is against a song written and played today.[/b] [b]We [i]are [/i]against CCM [/b](which is a certain genre of music - Christian rock, so to speak) [b]and secular rock[/b] - we are not against new music or songs.
[/quote]

You didn't answer my question though. You believe that music played with a anykind of beat found in modern music (whether it's rock, jazz, country, blue-grass, R&B, or whatever) it appeals to the flesh. You then made a reference to a little kid wanting to swing, dance, boggie, whatever, to the music. I'm asking if this is what defines worldly music to you? (anything that makes you wanna tap your foot, clap your hands, or just move any part of your body in general). This is an actual honest sincere question.

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