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[quote="auburn_tiger"]
What I am asking is Who or what determins what makes up CCM and why? What do you consider to be contemporary?
[/quote]

The record companies.

Contemporary means modern. It is not wrong to have music written and composed now (ie. contemporary) - but it is wrong to follow the contemporary styles of the world, and CCM is specifically worldly Christian rock music. Basically, CCM is all supposed Christian music that is rock music based, regardless of when it was written. Most of Praise and Worship would also fall in the same lines - because they are also forms of rock music, though marketed slightly different. The difference is Praise and Worship are certain styles of rock (and from what I know, would be classified as soft rock or alternative - though there many be other styles as well).

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[quote="Jerry"]
but it is wrong to follow the contemporary styles of the world.
[/quote]

You had better get rid of your Nikes (or what ever brand of shoes you wear) and start wearing leather shoes with leather soles.

Get rid of your denim jeans and start wearing wool trousers.

Sell your car, and buy a horse.

Stay away from most name brand clothing.

Quit drinking soda.

In fact, you might as well quit doing everything, sell everything you have, and start your own community similar to the Amish.

I find it funny that you can't use modern music to praise God, but you can use modern technology such as the internet to do the same thing.

Do you honestly think that the Hymns of the 1800s and the turn of the century sounded exactly like the of the 13th and 14th centuries? Or how about the music of the time of Christ? The fact is, that music that praised God at these particular times in history sounded just like the secular music of the same time.

The same holds true for the music of today. Styles change over the centuries. More so in the past 100 years than in previous centuries. The modern music of Today is going to be sound vastly different than the modern music we will hear 20 or 30 years from now.

If you want to get technical about things, there are many secular music musicians that write and preform their music on piano with absolutely no percussions. Tori Amos, Sarah McLachlan, Elton John, Celine Dion only name a few of these artists that almost everyone is somewhat familiar with. If you were to change the words to these songs, and no one was none the wiser, even the most hardcore of fundamentalists would have no problem with these songs. What's my point? There are secular musicians out there that preform the same style of music that most of you feel is a style appropriate for praising God.

Also, I'd like to make clear that many of the Hymns sang in independent baptist churches have their secular roots as well.

Listen to an just about any Irish drinking song and "All Hail the Power of Jesus Name" for similarities.

I don

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:roll:

Why would you want to distort music that is meant to glorify God?

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Distorted would be about right!

Obviously you're mind is made up - so there is no sense arguing. Just make sure you abide by the rules here and you will fit in. Push CCM or rock, and you won't.

P.S. read a few more music threads here, so you know where we stand, instead of wasting your time refuting arguments that have not been stated here.

Those here that are against CCM are also against secular rock. So we [i]would [/i] be against Celine Dion and those other secular artists, regardless of the instruments they use.

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[quote="Wildflower"]
:roll:
Why would you want to distort music that is meant to glorify God?
[/quote]

You obviosly know absolutely nothing about the mechanics of sound, and sound waves. the pluck of an acoustic guitar string is distorted sound. You have to further distort that sound on an electric amplifier to produce a cleaner sounding effect. It just depends on which way you distort the carrier wave. This is the sole purpose of a guitar's pre-amplifier. All sound is distortion. But you can influence the distortion electronically on an instrunment to produce the sound effect you want. :roll:

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[quote="Jerry"]
P.S. read a few more music threads here, so you know where we stand, instead of wasting your time refuting arguments that have not been stated here.
[/quote]
Well, I don't feel that I'm wasting my time by letting others know what my convictions are. The thread starter started a subject for discussion, and you feel that the only ones that should post any comment are those that agree with your views and ideology. I guess someone who shares a different view can't express why he/she feels differently. Besides, I don't need to read threads to know where you stand. I grew up in an Independent Baptist Church. My convictions about certain subjects have never been 100% agreeable with most Independent Baptists. But that's a different subject all together. Most of my convictions are online with Independent Baptists, but I have my reasons why I no longer attend one. If you would like to further discuss that. Feel free to PM me or email me.
[quote="Jerry"]
Those here that are against CCM are also against secular rock. So we [i]would [/i] be against Celine Dion and those other secular artists, regardless of the instruments they use.
[/quote] Did I say anywhere that I was for secular rock???? I think I've stated more than once that I believe all music should be in honor and glory of Christ. I think you missed my point about that particular statement completely.

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[quote]
Well, I don't feel that I'm wasting my time by letting others know what my convictions are.
[/quote]

There is nothing wrong with stating where you [i]personally [/i]stand - there is something wrong with the way you set out to do it. If you come to a website that specifically says where it stands, and then you write posts to show how wrong they all are, you are the one in the wrong. If you didn't like our stands, you didn't have to join. Now that you have, you will need to abide by and respect the rules.

Again, when you waste time refuting what is not being promoted on this website, who are you edifying? Certainly not us! Which is why I stated to read more threads before you determine you are going to prove us all wrong.

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[quote="Jerry"]
There is nothing wrong with stating where you [i]personally [/i]stand - there is something wrong with the way you set out to do it.
[/quote]

The thread starter asked if it was wrong to play the drums in church. So I guess, according to you, he's only allowed to get a certain kind of answer, one that is in line with your convictions. I'm in no way trying to prove anyone wrong, just taking a stance on what I believe. I post my thoughts, you're allowed to refute my statements, but I'm in no way allowed to express why I disagree???

[quote="Jerry"]
Again, when you waste time refuting what is not being promoted on this website, who are you edifying? Certainly not us! Which is why I stated to read more threads before you determine you are going to prove us all wrong.
[/quote] Again, I'm in no way trying to prove anyone wrong. From reading some of the replies to this thread, I don't stand alone on my beliefs about drums. And obviously, some still have questions, which I did my part to provide a certain side to the answer.

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My problem is the way you went about it in this thread and in others. It is one thing to state where you stand or why you disagree, it is an entirely different thing to ridicule and mock others that differ from you - especially when it is the clearly stated position of this website.

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[quote="Jerry"]
especially when it is the clearly stated position of this website.
[/quote]
If it is so clearly stated, why would someone post the question? Did the poster want to provoke an argument because he knew it was a touchy subject? Or did he merely want to view both sides' answers on this particular subject? I provided my answer, and I did so tactfully, intellectually, and with dignity. I in no way mocked or ridiculed anyones convictions.

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[quote="jmwhiten"]
I provided my answer, and I did so tactfully, intellectually, and with dignity. I in no way mocked or ridiculed anyones convictions.
[/quote]

Then your non-mocking answers clearly threw me:

[quote]
News flash folks....

You had better get rid of your Nikes (or what ever brand of shoes you wear) and start wearing leather shoes with leather soles.

Get rid of your denim jeans and start wearing wool trousers.

Sell your car, and buy a horse.

Stay away from most name brand clothing.

Quit drinking soda.

In fact, you might as well quit doing everything, sell everything you have, and start your own community similar to the Amish.

I find it funny that you can't use modern music to praise God, but you can use modern technology such as the internet to do the same thing.

Do you honestly think that the Hymns of the 1800s and the turn of the century sounded exactly like the of the 13th and 14th centuries?

I find it Ironic that most people here wouldn't find anything wrong with Amazing Grace on the Bagpipes, but if I added some drums, and a little distortion on the amplifier of my electric guitar, suddenly my style of music is influenced by Satan himself.
[/quote]

Plus a couple of other posts in other threads...

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[quote="Jerry"]
Then your non-mocking answers clearly threw me:
[/quote]

In no way was that meant to ridicule or mock. I was completely serious, and pointing out the double standard.

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[quote="jmwhiten"]
In no way was that meant to ridicule or mock. I was completely serious, and pointing out the double standard.
[/quote]

No, it is called having standards! Just because you don't agree with them does not make them "double standards." That implies hypocrisy on the subject and I am sure most here are not hypocritical in their music (some might be, but I don't know that).

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Distort
1. To twist out of natural or regular shape; as, to distort the neck, the limbs or the body; to distort the features.
2. To force or put out of the true posture or direction .
3. To wrest from the true meaning; to pervert; as, to distort passages of scripture, or their meaning.



Like I said why would you intentionally distort something that is to give praise to God?

I admit I am not musically inclined, but did take a music appreciate class a secular university, distortion was never used to describe music.

FTR just because you grew up in an IFB church doesn't give you a right to use that as an excuse to promote wordly music that is carnal and appeals more to the flesh then the soul.

Infact, it makes you appear rebellious to what has been taught.

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[quote="Jerry"]
No, it is called having standards! Just because you don't agree with them does not make them "double standards." That implies hypocrisy on the subject and I am sure most here are not hypocritical in their music (some might be, but I don't know that).
[/quote]

Actually, you used a better term, hypocrisy. You state that certain styles of musical talent have no place being used to praise God because it's is of the world. If it gives glory to Christ, then it clearly is not of the world. Anyways, back to the hypocricy issue.

Saturn is a supporter of gay rights. Saturn is also owned by GM, and GM is also in support of this. GM has same-sex domestic partner benifits for employees. Well guess what??? GM manufactures all these makes of vehicles: Chevy, Pontiac, Buick, Cadillac, GMC, Oldsmobile, Saturn, Hummer, SAAB, Holden, Opel, and Vauxhall. If you own any of these brands of vehicles, then you are supporting GM by giving them your money.

Chrystler also is a supporter of gay rights and benifits. Well, guess what??? They get support from anyone that buys a Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, and Mercedes vehicles. The money goes towards supporting gay rights movements all over the country.

Ford Motor Company was once voted on of the most gay friendly public companies in North America. Well, don't buy Ford, Lincoln, Mercury, Mazda, Volvo, Jaguar, Land Rover, or Aston Martin if you don't want your consumer support going to fund gay rights and marriage movements.

If you drive any of these vehicles, and use it to get to church, use it to go witnessing, or use it for God's work in anyway shape or form, and you also state that drums are an instrument of the world, and have no place in chruch or in service of God, then that can be defined as hypocritical

I could go on about products and services you probably use on a daily basis, and things that can be found in your church, that are made, manufactured or supported by homosexuals, satanists, human rights violaters, atheists, agnostics, muslims, mormons, Hollywood, etc., the list goes on.

Every style of music can be used in service of Christ, just like products or services, regardless of who owns it, manufactures it, supports it, etc, can be used in service of Christ.

I would almost garuntee that the operating system your using to view this website was made by a company that supports gay rights, offers same-sex relationship benifits to employees, and is one of the biggest supporters for same-sex marriages.

But can you use this operating system to honor and glorify God? Use it to praise him, and use it in service of Christ? Sure you can. Same holds true for music.

But you have your convictions, and I have mine. I could use more examples and sources to support my musical beliefs, as I'm sure you can do the same. I no longer wish to debate this with you as it was not my sole intent to do. From this point on, I will only answer questions as to why I believe what I do about music, and will refrain from making additional comments on those that simply disagree. If I have a question, I'll ask. If I have an answer, I'll freely give. But I think I've done an adequate job of sharing my convictions, and providing an answer to the question of the original poster.

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[quote="Wildflower"]
Distort
1. To twist out of natural or regular shape; as, to distort the neck, the limbs or the body; to distort the features.
2. To force or put out of the true posture or direction .
3. To wrest from the true meaning; to pervert; as, to distort passages of scripture, or their meaning.



Like I said why would you intentionally distort something that is to give praise to God?

I admit I am not musically inclined, but did take a music appreciate class a secular university, distortion was never used to describe music.

FTR just because you grew up in an IFB church doesn't give you a right to use that as an excuse to promote wordly music that is carnal and appeals more to the flesh then the soul.

Infact, it makes you appear rebellious to what has been taught.
[/quote]

all sound is nothing more than a disruption or distortion of air. Whos says that you can't manipulate that sound for your own uniqueness? Hook up a guitar to an O-scope, and look at the pattern of the wave. It's not perfect. It's distorted. Use a pre-amp to make an almost perfect wave, and have the most clean sounding pluck of a string you'll ever hear. Well quess what? You had to use the pre-amp to distort the orginal signal to produce a sound with the cleanest and highest fidelity.

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[quote="Jerry
The record companies.

Contemporary means modern. It is not wrong to have music written and composed now (ie. contemporary) - but it is wrong to follow the contemporary styles of the world, and CCM is specifically worldly Christian rock music. Basically, CCM is all supposed Christian music that is rock music based, regardless of when it was written. Most of Praise and Worship would also fall in the same lines - because they are also forms of rock music, though marketed slightly different. The difference is Praise and Worship are certain styles of rock (and from what I know, would be classified as soft rock or alternative - though there many be other styles as well).[/quote]


Jerry,

What determins rock music (not lyrically)? Is it the instruments themselves or how they are played?

As far as separation,
I believe we need to be separate but does that mean that we cannot use instruments that secular artist use to honor and glorify God?

As far as a beat,

ANY music whether it is with or with out instrumentation has a beat. How you enfasize and place that beat is the problem.

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For clarification: the stand against drums is my own personal one, and I know not everyone else here stands in the same place on that issue - though I have very firm reasons why I stand there.

I do not believe drums make something rock music - though drums are used in the majority of the rock and country music I am familiar with, and is NOT used in the Christian music I listed to now. Some of which has been obtained by Faith Music Missions, Faithway Baptist College, Majesty Music (though there might be some material they have with drums - at least one Patch The Pirate tape has bongo drums, if my memory serves me right), Crown College, and several other sources.

Rock is a sensual style of music where the beat dominates - which is one of the reasons I do not approve of drums. I have never heard drums used in a manner where the heavy [i]repetitious [/i]backbeat is not prominent. Maybe in an orchestra, it is not so - but in rock music (in all its forms) and country music it is.

I don't have a concrete definition of Rock music - but why do I need to define it - the world knows what it is - surely you do too! Yet some Christians (not saying you) seem to have a hard time classifying what they play in their churches as rock music, though it is exactly the same as played on rock music stations.

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A beat is important to music. It helps to maintain a flow.

Example: Take a hymn and look at the begining of the music. It will be written in 4/4, 3/4, or 6/8 time. the top number is how many beats per mesure and the bottom number is what note (quater, eighth) gets the beat.

Jerry the reason I ask is some people will say that rock music (non-lyricaly) is defined as what instruments are being used. This mentality is very flawed and if it were true then churches should not use any instrumentation at all.

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I would say Rock music is a style/genre of music, just as there is Classical, New Age, Country, Jazz, Blues (though in some of these the lines are blurred). I don't know a whole lot of the different genres of music - but I am familiar with most of the types of rock, except for some new kinds that have come out in the last ten years - hip hop being one of them, though what I have heard is pretty evil.

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Jerry,

I would agree with you on music being a style. It is how some one/group plays the instruments and NOT the instruments themselves.

Two reasons that I like Southern Gospel music is most of the songs are Biblicaly sound and the music is not like rock or any secular type of music.

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Music has to have a beat, though a better word may be pulse. Frank Garlock used the analogy that just as a body without a pulse is indicative of something very wrong, music without a pulse is dead.

In classical music (not just classical; but it is a good example) the pulses have a distinctive pattern. The first beat of the measure is strongest, and the others are weaker. (STRONG-weak if there are two beats in the measure, STRONG-weak-weak if there are three beats in the measure, and STRONG-weak-medium-weak if there are four beats in the measure.)

One of the distinctive things about the beat of rock music is that it uses constant sycopation. I guess you could say syncopation is putting in strong beats where they don't belong. Classical music uses this device occasionally, more so in the 1900's than anything that came before that, and even our hymns do it a bit. And example would be "Keep on the firing line". One of the reasons why the rhythm of that line is so catchy is because of the syncopation. Rock and jazz, and other styles that aren't appropriate for a Christian, use syncopation [i]constantly.[/i] The pattern of strong and weak beats in four time in a rock song are more likely to be weak-STRONG-weak-medium, rather than STRONG-weak-medium-weak. Drum sets, and rhythm guitar, are used to accent this. I'm not opposed to percussion used for tone color, (i.e. cymbals, timpani, etc.) but that is not at all the same thing as the way a drum set is used in a rock band. That sort of beat has a very distinctive effect on the human body, most clearly evidenced by the way that type of music makes people dance. The sensual movements aren't caused by the words. You could get up and read the most horrible lyrics a secular rock musician ever invented, and it wouldn't have the same effect on the body.

Other musical aspects I would associate with rock music would be: scooping (sliding up to a pitch rather than hitting notes dead-on), and also a breathy, sexy tone of voice, which should be inappropriate in church for obvious reasons.

Oops. I've talked too much, and now must rush away! So much to say, so little time!

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Termite, Thank you. You hit the nail right on the head - and expressed in a much better way some of what I was trying to get across!

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Sorry, but I have never heard any slurring or scooping in classical music - only in Southern Gospel and CCM.

My take on this is:

The instrument itself is not the problem. A drum is not sinful. A bagpipe is not sinful. It is how it is used that is sinful.

If you use a drum in your music, does your music have the flavor of the world in it? If not, then it is glorifying to God. I have heard orchestras in church settings and drums were played. They were not dominant and there was no off-beat. The music was edifying.

If you played your music in a public setting and the world liked it because it really sounded no different than what they are used to then there is something wrong. Amy Grant was on the Tonight Show a few years ago and everybody loved her. That doesn't say much for her testimony.

If you played traditional hymns on the Tonight Show how well do you think that would go over? Our music is not to have the world's flavor in it.

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