Order of salvation

[orvals]

I have been trying to determine the biblical order that occurs in salvation. Not looking to debate here but simply get your input. It seems to me that the proper order would be...

Hearing the word
Conviction
godly sorrow (worketh repentance)
confession of sin which I believe happens simultaneously with repentance (Mark 1:4-5)
Baptism (not required for salvation)
Walking in newness of life (evidence of salvation)

Your thoughts,

Orvals

[1Timothy115]

I have been trying to determine the biblical order that occurs in salvation. Not looking to debate here but simply get your input. It seems to me that the proper order would be...

Hearing the word
Conviction
godly sorrow (worketh repentance)
confession of sin which I believe happens simultaneously with repentance (Mark 1:4-5)
Baptism (not required for salvation)
Walking in newness of life (evidence of salvation)

Your thoughts,

Orvals

I don't want to sound harsh but, see Evan's book on the doctrines.

[orvals]

Please clarify your response. Who is Evans?

Orvals

[orvals]

"Repentance is a change of mind, or a conversion from sin to God.
Godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation. 2Cor. 7. Matt. 3.
Repentance is the relinquishment of any practice, from conviction that it has offended God.
Noah Webster?s 1828 American Dictionary"

In reading your past posts of which I have reposted some of your comments I believe you want to re-evaluate where I place repentence, am I correct? If this is true I am also assuming that you believe repentance occurs prior to salvation as your wording in the above quote shows. The problem with this belief is that repentance also means turning toward something in this case Jesus Christ but my question would be how do I turn to Christ without confessing my sins which must occur for salvation to occur. This is why I respectfully place confession of sin and repentance toward God as simultaneous actions.

Orvals

[1Timothy115]

"Repentance is a change of mind, or a conversion from sin to God.
Godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation. 2Cor. 7. Matt. 3.
Repentance is the relinquishment of any practice, from conviction that it has offended God.
Noah Webster?s 1828 American Dictionary"

In reading your past posts of which I have reposted some of your comments I believe you want to re-evaluate where I place repentence, am I correct? If this is true I am also assuming that you believe repentance occurs prior to salvation as your wording in the above quote shows. The problem with this belief is that repentance also means turning toward something in this case Jesus Christ but my question would be how do I turn to Christ without confessing my sins which must occur for salvation to occur. This is why I respectfully place confession of sin and repentance toward God as simultaneous actions.

Orvals

I apologize for the earlier post. Please see the "Doctrines Anyone?" thread for the reference to Evans. I'm attempting to get an on line doctrines group-study going. I was feeling a little discouraged that others were not as excited as I was...that was before prayer.

Honestly, on the question of order of (can I say steps?) process toward salvation, I believe much as you do...
"Hearing the word
Conviction
godly sorrow
confession of sin"

I keep going back to Romans chapters 10 and 11 particularly 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

I can see all the things you mentioned above either directly mentioned or indirectly implyed in Romans chapters 10 and 11.

The only thing I don't see in your list is where faith comes in.
Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

"...thy faith hath made thee whole."

Also on the question of repentance before salvation. I'm looking at Matthew 13:15 the second half of the verse. Christ is saying here they will not be converted and why in part one He is also saying what they could do if they were not gross-hearted, dull-hearing, and closed-eyed.

Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

See-hear-understand-convert-healed. Convert is the turning and the healing is salvation. Let's study the doctrine together for salvation in Evan's book and see what we come up with there. See...
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=25662

[Wilchbla]

I'd be careful with this "order of salvation" stuff. Before you know it you may be teaching works for salvation. The word of God simply says that "whosover shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." If you open your mouth and ask Christ Jesus to save your wretched soul than you have already done all the other things simultaneously (repent, believe, confess). Don't get away from the simplicity of the gospel. Think of it as when Peter was going under the waves. All he said was "Lord save me!" He didn't confess the whole Lordship of Christ , repent, acknowledge, desire to do good works, etc etc. He would have drowned by then.

[orvals]

Wilchbla,

Are you suggesting that walking on the water was a sin or perhaps taking his eyes off Christ was a sin? With respect to what you are trying to say the story you refer to has nothing to do with salvation. Your reference to salvation by works has nothing to do with the order of salvation unless you believe that thinking is a form of works. Which of the following would you consider as works toward salvation?

Hearing the word
Conviction
godly sorrow (worketh repentance)
confession of sin which I believe happens simultaneously with repentance (Mark 1:4-5)
Baptism (not required for salvation)
Walking in newness of life (evidence of salvation)

Orvals

[Hambone]

I'd be careful with this "order of salvation" stuff. Before you know it you may be teaching works for salvation. The word of God simply says that "whosover shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." If you open your mouth and ask Christ Jesus to save your wretched soul than you have already done all the other things simultaneously (repent' date=' believe, confess). Don't get away from the simplicity of the gospel. Think of it as when Peter was going under the waves. All he said was "Lord save me!" He didn't confess the whole Lordship of Christ , repent, acknowledge, desire to do good works, etc etc. He would have drowned by then.[/quote']
AMEN.

While I don't subscribe to the "1-2-3, Pray after me" salvation, I think the movement pushing repentence is a hinderance to God's perfect Gospel. This focus on repentance is leading to many "salvation redos".

In ACTS 8:
And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

What I see here is the Eunuch gaining knowledge of the Gospel. Nowhere does it say the Eunich broke down in sorrowful tears, crying "Woe is me!" I believe the Eunuch was saved when he asked Philip,"what doth hindereth me to be baptized?" At that point, he believed in Christ. All Philip wanted was a public profession. When you turn to Christ, you are turning away from the world.

According to the infallable KJV, Word of God, they didn't even pray. The public profession by the Eunuch that,"I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God" was enough. He believed. Then he was baptized.

I currently attend a great Baptist Church, so don't take what I say the wrong way.

They focus so much on the evidence of repentance, that sometimes I wonder if it turns peopls away from salvation. I have witnessed several "redos" of men and women who I would have been willing to say were DEFINITELY saved, just by their testimony, and the way they lived their lives. It's good they got it taken care of if they weren't in fact saved, but I think the whole "righteous sorrow" leads to "Was I sorry enough?" questions.

When you focus on the changes in a person's life, rather than their faith in Christ, I think it becomes a works-type salvation, which we all know is impossible.

A pastor friend of mine once askedd another preacher if it was a requirement to give up smoking, drinking, bar-hopping, womanizing, etc. to be saved. "Of course it is," was the response. "Well, I must not be saved,"my pastor replied to the shock of this preacher. Of course, he had never actually done those things to begin with being raised in a Christian home. We must focus on "saved by faith" not "saved by repentance."

Disclaimer: I do believe in repentance. I think repentance, the first step, is turning to Christ. You don't become a repented sinner before accepting Christ. It's all part of Christian growth. Many young Christians have things in their life they must work out. Things that may take time. Music, dress and appearance, associations, habits, etc. We shouldn't preach, and nowhere in God's word does it command that you must get rid of this stuff before coming to a saving knowledge of Christ.

Did the sinner on the cross repent? He may have, but Biblical record shows him admitting his sins and recognizing who Christ was. He recognized he was getting what he deserved, but never apologized or even seemed sorry for what he did. He didn't even ask Christ for salvation. Jesus said He'd see him in paradise. He simply acknowledged Christ, and asked Him to remember him. Never did he say,"I'm so sorry for what I did, please save me."

This only goes to show that Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, the life, and the door. Not repentance, not sorrow, not baptizm, works (which the first three are), and not man.

[Hambone]

Wilchbla,

Are you suggesting that walking on the water was a sin or perhaps taking his eyes off Christ was a sin? With respect to what you are trying to say the story you refer to has nothing to do with salvation. Your reference to salvation by works has nothing to do with the order of salvation unless you believe that thinking is a form of works. Which of the following would you consider as works toward salvation?

Hearing the word
Conviction
godly sorrow (worketh repentance)
confession of sin which I believe happens simultaneously with repentance (Mark 1:4-5)
Baptism (not required for salvation)
Walking in newness of life (evidence of salvation)

Orvals

Baptism and wlaking in newness of life, if you are relying on these for salvation (which you say you aren't, but decided to list with "steps" of salvation).

Wilch is correct. Many accounts in the Bible are symbolic of salvation. One of those being Peter on the water. Peter walked on the water, yes. He would have continued walking on the water if he had trusted Christ, and not been distracted by the happenings around him. Just as a man, Adam, was once perfect (walking on water), fell (Peter sunk), and the only way of salvation is to recognize Christ's ability, the only ability, to save man (notice Peter didn't turn back to the boat, to the Apostles--He cried out for Christ). We all start out as Peter sinking now, thanks to Adam's decision. Only Christ can lift us to security in Him. We cannot save ourselves.

I think his statement was dead on.

[Revelation3:20]

Did the sinner on the cross repent? He may have, but Biblical record shows him admitting his sins and recognizing who Christ was. He recognized he was getting what he deserved, but never apologized or even seemed sorry for what he did. He didn't even ask Christ for salvation. Jesus said He'd see him in paradise. He simply acknowledged Christ, and asked Him to remember him. Never did he say,"I'm so sorry for what I did, please save me."

A study of scripture(Matthew 27:44) shows that he initially railed on Christ as the other man did, yet obviously he did have a change of heart about that. I do however agree with you that there is a fine line to be walked when teaching repentance. While it is essential and I think most of the time it is taught rightly, there are certainly some who take it very close to works. Care must be taken to ensure that it follows the bibles teaching.

Wilch is correct. Many accounts in the Bible are symbolic of salvation. One of those being Peter on the water. Peter walked on the water, yes. He would have continued walking on the water if he had trusted Christ, and not been distracted by the happenings around him. Just as a man, Adam, was once perfect (walking on water), fell (Peter sunk), and the only way of salvation is to recognize Christ's ability, the only ability, to save man (notice Peter didn't turn back to the boat, to the Apostles--He cried out for Christ). We all start out as Peter sinking now, thanks to Adam's decision. Only Christ can lift us to security in Him. We cannot save ourselves.

I think his statement was dead on.

No, it is being mis-applied. It is symbolic of the Christian life after salvation. If it was symbolic of salvation it would be teaching that salvation could be lost if you later failed to trust Christ as you should. It isn't teaching that at all. It is teaching that the Christian must abide in Christ to have power. If the believer fails to trust and follow Christ he will fall and lose the power of God but not his salvation.

[1Timothy115]

These conversations are why we all need to be grounded in the scriptures. Some of the discussion here is answered by understanding the doctrine of salvation. What did Jesus teach from the beginning of His earthly ministry? Matthew 4:17

[pneu-engine]

I have been trying to determine the biblical order that occurs in salvation. Not looking to debate here but simply get your input. It seems to me that the proper order would be...

Hearing the word
Conviction
godly sorrow (worketh repentance)
confession of sin which I believe happens simultaneously with repentance (Mark 1:4-5)
Baptism (not required for salvation)
Walking in newness of life (evidence of salvation)

Your thoughts,

Orvals

This is good. :thumb

I would further break these steps down as follows. Please understand that this re-categorizing in no way criticizes your list.

***God's Call to the Sinner:::::::: ((((((He calls us first. No-one ever came to the LORD of his own, initial accord. "There is none that seeketh after God, no not one.")))))))

---Hearing the Word
---Conviction of sin (((((i.e. If the sinner has not hardened his heart against the Call of God to repent.))))))

***The Sinner's Response::::::::: (((((((Here the sinner makes a choice:::::: He/she can respond to the LORD favorably and agree with God that his sin is sin just as God sees it, or he can drown/quench this fiery conviction in work, pleasure, entertainment, alcohol, other drugs, or even religion.))))))))

---godly sorrow (worketh repentance) (((((((A favorable response.))))))))
confession of sin which I believe happens simultaneously with repentance (Mark 1:4-5) (((((((This may or may not happen. I have seen sinners come allllllllllllll the way and right up to this point of salvation and then turn ever so slightly away to a strange doctrine of false/pseudo/counterfeit salvation. This turning away occurs because the sinner was not willing to confess completely--->>>i.e. agreeing totally with God that ALLLLLLLLL OF HIS SIN is sinful and ugly in God's sight. If that sinner is not willing to confess (agree with God and say the same thing about sin as God says it) then he will not repent totally. It is at that point that the devil slips him a counterfiet. This is what Hebrews 6:4-6 is all about. Incidentally, the "Romans Road" plan of salvation is a good example of the types that can bring a person to a pseudo salvation.

The Romans Road:::::::::
---Romans 3:23 All have sinned....
---Romans 6:23 The wages of sin is death....
---Romans 5:8 God commendeth His love toward us....
---Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth....
---Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness....
---Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call....

A sinner can read and believe (head knowledge) those verses and still not repent, or not repent completely. A Roman catholic can do that and still retain his catholicism and then be two-fold more the child of hell, because he now thinks he is saved. A recipient of Easy Believism can do that and be two-fold more the child of hell, as well. This is what Joshua was describing to the people in Joshua 24:19 when he told them they cannot serve the LORD, right after they told him they would do so. The LORD requires complete, 100% repentance and confession..
))))))))

The Response from the LORD:::::: ((((((i.e. Only to those who have fully confessed and repented not just of their sins but of their sinful state before God.)))))))
---Salvation and all of the benefits and blessings, freedom from sin and its penalty and power, and authority to be God's very own child. John 1:12.
---A new name and home in Heaven.

Evidences of Genuine Salvation::::::::: (((((((These provide no saving merit.))))))))

---Baptism by immersion
---Walking in newness of life

[Hambone]

I was saved when I was nine years old. I wasn't rolling on the ground, screaming because I was worried the earth was going to open up her mouth and swallow me down into the pits of hell. I am a very "matter-of-fact" person. Even when I was nine, I wasn't the type to get emotional. It's just how I've always been. I heard the plan of salvation, knew I was a sinner, knew I could not get into heaven or out of hell without Christ, and accepted God's free gift. God offered, I accepted. I knew I was a sinner, and asked forgiveness for my sins (I wasn't a womanizing, drinking, smoking nine year old, mind you), asked Jesus to become Lord of my life. As Emeril would say,"BAM!" --I was saved. Have I made mistakes in my life since then? Yes. Thank God I can trust in Jesus and His Word--not my perfection--to know I'm saved.

[orvals]

?I was saved when I was nine years old. I wasn't rolling on the ground, screaming because I was worried the earth was going to open up her mouth and swallow me down into the pits of hell. I am a very "matter-of-fact" person. Even when I was nine, I wasn't the type to get emotional. It's just how I've always been. I heard the plan of salvation, knew I was a sinner, knew I could not get into heaven or out of hell without Christ, and accepted God's free gift. God offered, I accepted. I knew I was a sinner, and asked forgiveness for my sins (I wasn't a womanizing, drinking, smoking nine year old, mind you), asked Jesus to become Lord of my life. As Emeril would say,"BAM!" --I was saved. Have I made mistakes in my life since then? Yes. Thank God I can trust in Jesus and His Word--not my perfection--to know I'm saved.?


Hambone,

I think you might be a little melodramatic in your response. :Green Concerning repentance Jesus told two different people to go and sin no more this would seem to make repentance and walking in newness of life important. Now let me assure you that I understand that baptism and walking in the newness of life are not requirements for salvation nor are they required to stay saved our security lies directly in the hands of the Holy Spirit through the sealing of the Spirit and the promise of God who cannot lie. None the less we are told to evaluate salvation by the fruits of the believer while understanding there will be tares amongst us.

Repentance is not a movement as you suggested in an earlier post it is a requirement that is coupled with salvation. John the Baptist said ?repent ye for the kingdom of God is at hand? also ?repent ye and believe the gospel?. Jesus said twice that ?except ye repent ye shall all like wise perish? and Luke said in Acts 2:38 ?repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins?.

We can debate the semantics repentance until the cows come home but clearly (in my mind) if there is no repentance then I do not see how a person can be saved. Belief and action are simultaneous in salvation. Consider if you will faith now we know that with out faith it is impossible to please God and yet we are told in James that faith with out works is dead. Isn?t the writer saying that faith is a product of believing and acting on that belief and is that not the same application to salvation, that believing and acting upon that belief are a simultaneous action? If I am going in a direction contrary to gospel and I hear the gospel and understand my lostness in the sight of God and my need for forgiveness and a new direction in life when I believe in Christ the repentance (change of mind) is already present and is part of placing my faith in Christ.

As for your salvation experience you know as well as I that individual experiences in salvation do not constitute biblical truth they can only evidence that truth.

Thanks to all who contributed, I made an assumption that based on my past posts it would have been understood that I do not believe that baptism and walking in newness of life are actually required for salvation obviously I should have made the distinction. As I have heard said, "my bad".

Orvals

[Wilchbla]

Wilchbla,

Are you suggesting that walking on the water was a sin or perhaps taking his eyes off Christ was a sin? With respect to what you are trying to say the story you refer to has nothing to do with salvation. Your reference to salvation by works has nothing to do with the order of salvation unless you believe that thinking is a form of works. Which of the following would you consider as works toward salvation?



Orvals

No. I'm just using Peter's story as an illustration of salvation. I believe repenatance is required yet I don't think repentance means you make somekind of deal or vow with the Lord to do right or that you "pray through" like the old time Methodists did. When one calls upon the Lord Jesus to save his soul that very act of faith contains repentance within it. Anotherwards, someone won't call on the Lord if he hasn't repented. But I don't believe you are vowing to do good because then you salvation becomes of works.

So, I was just suggesting you be careful with an "order" of salvation because the gospel doesn't do that.