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I want to challenge religious viewpoints. Christ did not die for my sins. I do not buy in to your religion and I really think that if you took a journey with me' date=' neither would you.[/quote']

Well if that journey involved a trip round Sheffield then yes, one might end up concluding there was no God.
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There is no right or wrong. There is good and bad but that can depend on where someone is looking from Eg - Supporting Saddam against Iran is good but then it becomes a bad thing. The map is not the territory. There is effective and not effective and a whole lot of shades inbetween. There is the power to change' date=' to learn to love but not when you have to live your live within the interpertation of a 2000 year old book.[/quote']

Hee, hee. I love it! If there is "no right or wrong," then how can you possibly be right and those who disagree with you wrong? If there is no right or wrong, why in the world (HOW in the world) debate? What could be the purpose of it? Seems to be a waste of time for someone of your opinions.

Similarly, if there is no meaning, as you assert, why would you expect anyone to take what you say seriously? Indeed, how can you believe yourself? Your words are, by your own definition, meaningless.
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I believe that we are animals and have no rights over any other of god's creatures.
I believe that people have a right to do what they like .provided it doesn't hurt others or the planet
I believe that there is no meaning, only interpretation.
I believe that all humans have the power to do good.
I believe that we humans need protecting from ourselves.


I always find this one interesting. If we are nothing but animals, most of the more powerful animals do m=not worry about hurting others. The lion kills other animals for food. It will kill another lion for getting into its territory. If you look at the animal kingdom, many things go on that go against that "provided." And us being just more animals, we should be able to do the same as the lion, take what we can, even if we have to hurt others to get it. But of coarse we are not just another animal, but created in the image of the almighty God. We have rules (the Bible whether we like it or not) that govern us. It would be a sad thing to live in a society that truely believed we were just animals!!!
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Hello again. Thanks for the comments? Is it wrong to murder? An eye for an eye? Some would have us believe that killing can be justified. Look at Iraq. Perhaps the view of the majority becomes the 'right and wrong' of society because society needs rules and retribution to function and provide security.

It was 'wrong' to be a practising homosexual 40 years ago. It isn't now. There are some things that it is pretty easy to make a judgement call on. There are many others that aren't.

As for meaning. There is science and there are theories. If something is proven like 1 + 1 = 2, then it has meaning. Otherwise, we have theories that best fit the world as we know it, but they can (and do) change. Any other meaning just doesn't seem relevant. Perhaps it is difficult to explain love scientifically but to take the word of an old book and live by it (and its many contradictions) in an attempt to find meaning suggests to me a need and not rational or reason.

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Hello again. Thanks for the comments? Is it wrong to murder? An eye for an eye? Some would have us believe that killing can be justified. Look at Iraq. Perhaps the view of the majority becomes the 'right and wrong' of society because society needs rules and retribution to function and provide security.

It was 'wrong' to be a practising homosexual 40 years ago. It isn't now. There are some things that it is pretty easy to make a judgement call on. There are many others that aren't.

As for meaning. There is science and there are theories. If something is proven like 1 + 1 = 2, then it has meaning. Otherwise, we have theories that best fit the world as we know it, but they can (and do) change. Any other meaning just doesn't seem relevant. Perhaps it is difficult to explain love scientifically but to take the word of an old book and live by it (and its many contradictions) in an attempt to find meaning suggests to me a need and not rational or reason.


So, according to you, discussion about this topic cannot possibly have any meaning. We're talking about things that cannot be empirically proven (the existence/nonexistence of God, the definitions of right and wrong, etc.). We can't even agree on the basic terms which are foundational to our discussion (right, wrong, truth, error, etc.), and cannot be proven in any case. So, by your own admission and definition, your agenda is destined to fail. Your words have no meaning. There is no way for anyone to be "right" in this discussion. Thus, no one can be "wrong."

You see "truth" as fluid and arbitrary, affected by the changing winds of culture and time; Christians believe that truth is unchanging and absolute, established by an absolute and unchanging Source: our world's Maker. We are at an impasse. Presuppositions on both sides stand in the way of any fruitful interchange of ideas.

Christianity is a faith, not a system of reasoning. It is reasonable, but the door to that reason is faith. (And, whether you acknowledge it or not, the door to your system of reasoning is also faith--belief in basic presuppositions: the nonexistence of God, the evolution of organisms, etc. Ah, but you say you have no presuppositions. I know, because I have talked to many people like you. But the truth is (can I use that word? :wink ) that you wouldn't be reasoning in the way you are if you didn't believe those presuppositions.)
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I believe that we are animals and have no rights over any other of god's creatures.
I believe that people have a right to do what they like provided it doesn't hurt others or the planet.
I believe that there is no meaning, only interpretation.
I believe that all humans have the power to do good.
I believe that we humans need protecting from ourselves.


Good afternoon, Yiggoto! I do so find the words of yours above in blue quite curious, indeed. :lol: So, what is your background in Christianity, and what made you so hostile to it?
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While it might be nice to have a specific debate forum for such matters, the fact is OB doesn't have one and this board is for born again believers to fellowship. Those who are truly seeking Christ are welcome too, of course, but you have made it clear you came here for the purpose of proving us wrong (though you claim there is no right or wrong).

You are here with a predetermined anti-Christian mindset. You have been presented with the truth yet you steadfastly refuse to accept it, or even consider it. Therefore there really is no point in carrying on a discussion with you or in even considering the topic of the thread.

I do pray you may one day open your heart and mind and truly seek Christ so you can learn for yourself that He is indeed real and true.

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There is no right or wrong. There is good and bad but that can depend on where someone is looking from Eg - Supporting Saddam against Iran is good but then it becomes a bad thing. The map is not the territory. There is effective and not effective and a whole lot of shades inbetween. There is the power to change' date=' to learn to love but not when you have to live your live within the interpertation of a 2000 year old book.[/quote']

Mark of a mad man.
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So long as this thread is here, does anyone have any comments regarding the OP?

Around the mid-90s I knew some Christians who loved and listened to heavy metal, hard rock, or what is often today called classic rock.

This subject would often come up, especially with one Christian in particular who I became friends with and I know was a born again Christian.

What most often struck me about his defense of listening to such music is just how defensive and angry he most often became. His arguments for why it was okay were based mostly upon emotions. Also, whenever we discussed this music he would always refer to the music in personal terms, such as saying "my music".

What are your thoughts and how do you deal with such? Is there anyone here who still listens to such music or perhaps the Chrsitianized version of this?

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So long as this thread is here, does anyone have any comments regarding the OP?

Around the mid-90s I knew some Christians who loved and listened to heavy metal, hard rock, or what is often today called classic rock.

This subject would often come up, especially with one Christian in particular who I became friends with and I know was a born again Christian.

What most often struck me about his defense of listening to such music is just how defensive and angry he most often became. His arguments for why it was okay were based mostly upon emotions. Also, whenever we discussed this music he would always refer to the music in personal terms, such as saying "my music".

What are your thoughts and how do you deal with such? Is there anyone here who still listens to such music or perhaps the Chrsitianized version of this?


I got into listening to some during my teen years. I had started listening to country at first because that's what my friends listened to & then I gradually progressed to listening to harder forms of music. It's amazing how many times that happens. Even with those who listen to CCM. I've watched people start out listening to certain Southern Gospel groups who were a little on the contemporary side & eventually they would be listening to all types of CCM. I suppose it's merely the downward spiral of slipping away from God.

The thing that helped me the most to finally see what rock music, etc... was all about was a book I had to read my first semester in Bible college: The Pied Piper of Rock Music by Dennis Corle. It really opened my eyes to how wicked and vile the music & especially the musicians truly are.

In Christ,
PreacherE
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