Do Methodist belives they can lose salvation?

[Guest Guest]

While In the hospital a united methodist women minister(we won't bother w/ that!) come to visit. I' m clearly listed as Baptist so I don't know why she came to my room!!?? Felt like the Lord was telling me to just ask her Questions so I did. We were able to get really far thru salvation by grace, repentance etc. but then I ask her if they thought they could lose their salvation and she said yes!! but only if they did a a realy ,really bad thing! So I began to ask her for examples but two dr.s I HAD to see came in and our conversation ended. So can anyone tell me about this? Do United Methodist believe they can lose their salvation?? Pixiedust :puzzled:

[jchahl 2]

I couldn't find a solid answer, but I found this.

"And what of eternal security or once saved always saved? We never find any such phrase in the scriptures, much less in the Greek text, that says such or that one can never lose salvation. Wesley affirmed that one could fall from grace and lose salvation. Here is what he said. "I believe a saint may fall away; that one who is holy or righteous in the judgment of God himself may nevertheless so fall from God as to perish everlastingly." Today many within the conservative movements within the United Methodist Church, such as the Good News people and even some in the Confession Movement could care less about this doctrine. Their reason for this avoidance is that we must understand how important it is to have a catholic spirit in such matters. That is why they allow those from outside the United Methodist Church to bring in their doctrines. Doctrines that will cause splits in UM Churches if United Methodist pastors would preach Methodist them. Of course if this happens the pastors will get the blame when they should be hailed as great men for standing."

http://www.imarc.cc/edit/harted_19.html

[Wilchbla 283]

Yes, they do. That is if they believe in it to begin with. I don't think the United Methodist think much of these things anymore.

John Wesley said it APPEARED that a Christian could lose his/her salvation.

[John81 7,400]

I know I was only a child but I grew up attending Methodist Sunday school and what I gathered from that was the idea if I was really good I'd go to heaven but if I was bad I'd end up in hell. Along with this was the idea this was all fluid, as if I were heavenbound so long as I was good but if I did something bad (never a clear definition of what that meant so to my young mind just about anything wrong could fit) I would then be hellbound.

Today a great many Methodist churches stand for very little. They have purposefully watered down their beliefs and purposefully avoid taking "controversial" stands on things in order to appear to be open and accepting of anyone. They even advertise that anyone with any beliefs are welcome; with the clear indication they will not be expected to change their beliefs regardless of what they may be.

[JerryNumbers 2,474]

I will say this, there are Methodist that do not believe you can lose your salvation, but you will generally find them in the country churches and they will not be a part of the United Methodist.

Sad to say, United Methodist has gone very liberal in the last few years.

Something I found.

<<"Through baptism, we accept God's gifts through Jesus. There is no strict rule among United Methodists about how baptism must be performed, although sprinkling water on the head of the person being baptized is most common. Everyone is accepted and welcome at the communion table, whether members of the Church or not, kids or adults.">>

http://unitedmethodist.org/mquest4.html

That makes it sound as if they believe that salvation comes thru baptizing.

[bzmomo7 50]

What is a "Free-Methodist"? Anyone know what they believe? My mother's family a generation back were that.

[JerryNumbers 2,474]

What is a "Free-Methodist"? Anyone know what they believe? My mother's family a generation back were that.

I had never head of them, but you can find out about this on this site.

http://www.freemethodistchurch.org/Sect ... hodist.htm

[jchahl 2]

I had never head of them, but you can find out about this on this site.

http://www.freemethodistchurch.org/Sect ... hodist.htm

There's tons of Free Methodists around my area. I was kind of surprised that you never heard of them. I don't know what they stand for (probably nothing...jk), but I do remember going to a Vacation Bible School at a Free Methodist Church for several years when I was a kid.

[JerryNumbers 2,474]

Remember, in different areas many beliefs are not represented, and with only 77,173 members in the Free Methodist they will in know way cover the whole United States.

[BaptistLady02 1]

Yes, I believe the United Methodists do believe that they can lose their salvation. Of course, that isn't the only false thing that they believe. They believe that Jesus is truly present in communion. They believe that abortion can be justified in more circumstances than just when the mother's life is in danger. They believe that women can be preachers. They believe a lot of false stuff and are a fairly liberal group of people.

[Wilchbla 283]

From what I've read about the founder of the Methodist denomination, John Wesley, he never came right out and said a Christian can lose his salvation but that it APPEARED from scripture that it possibly could happen. Now what happens is the follows of a founder of any denomination or sect usually take his teachings to the extreme. So most today, if they believe in salvation at all, teach that you can lose it. I have to admit though, I have never read Wesley's writings but just a biograpy about him.

[His by Grace 0]

I know I was only a child but I grew up attending Methodist Sunday school and what I gathered from that was the idea if I was really good I'd go to heaven but if I was bad I'd end up in hell. Along with this was the idea this was all fluid, as if I were heavenbound so long as I was good but if I did something bad (never a clear definition of what that meant so to my young mind just about anything wrong could fit) I would then be hellbound.

Today a great many Methodist churches stand for very little. They have purposefully watered down their beliefs and purposefully avoid taking "controversial" stands on things in order to appear to be open and accepting of anyone. They even advertise that anyone with any beliefs are welcome; with the clear indication they will not be expected to change their beliefs regardless of what they may be.

John, I grew up in a Methodist church as well and was taught the same idea's!!My parents attend a Methodist church. It is growing in leaps and bounds and have many activites to "outreach to the community" My mom claims salvation and when I go thru Romans road she is right on the money yet she's never even persued Baptism. ass well I've not seen fruit! She did fall in love with tracts at our church but when she ask why they don't have them at her church...she was actually told by the head Pastor's wife that we don't need those because we grow people here not trying to "get them saved" My response when mom told me was,"Huh?"(as my mom alway's points out "She's a ordained Pastor in her own right!!) My stepdad attends, does his Deacon job, gives money toward special projects but goes to sleep everytime during service. Last time we went to visit they only had NIV Bible's in the pew's and it was a day they were having the Lord's Supper. They now all go up frt. take the wafer and drinK from one large chalis!! Growing up I never saw that!! My mom is concerned for my stepdad's salvation but says he was a member of the Fellowship of Christian Athelete so maybe he just hasn't grown. She is concerned for my brother as well and wants my son to witness to him BUT not go over to his Christian College Campus!!! Out of her concern she has given them both "The Message"and then I lost it! She wanted to know what the problem is?? I told her because it doesn't even have the message !!! I have given all thre of them KJV Bibles especially because I feel responsible that my mom uses the NIV. I helped her find it so she could read it. I was witnessing to her (out of the KJV) but she preferred the NIV and at that time I didn't know any better. I even bought my husband a NIV when he got saved but I used a KJV. I did later get a NIV like his but somehow never felt I was growing during that time. I just thought it was personnal preferance then so I went back to my KJV. Only later was our family convicted over the KJV being God's Word. My husband has never read his KJV like he did his NIV. I feel so responsible but I did what I knew at the time and I know the LORD understands. Cann't believe I poured all this out but people don't understand how false the Methodist church has become!! I've seen up close (went to a ladied Bible Study while visitng my mom. Only one very elderly lady and I would ask certain questins and she was right on!! Then when we rad a Bible verse or two I realized she had a KJV Bible!!! I've never been so excited...as she seemed to be as well!!! We ended up witnessing the the entire Bile Study. I've really encouraged my mom to visit her on a regular basis and she does. Mom say's," I just love her there is something sooo different about her!" yea, she's saved!!! PPeople be careful they will use the correct word's but their diffinitions are different!!! Witness to them ...they need saving!!!

[CPR 0]

I know this is a bit of an old thread, but I felt a need to comment on a few things.

I grew up a United Methodist and still hold that church in a special place in my heart. I was never taught nor did I hear that a Christian could lose their salvation, however, I am really not sure what the official position of the UMC is. I do know that the UMC encourages each member to ask questions and study for themselves. That is, there is a place for inquisitive minds and for people to search the Bible for themselves. You could ask 10 different Methodists about 1 question (not how one gets saved, but another issue) and get 10 different answers.

Also, Methodists do not, and I repeat DO NOT believe that baptism saves. Baptism is a sacrament, which is an outward sign of God's grace. A person is saved when they make a conscious choice to accept that grace.

I'm also not sure how you can say that "a great many Methodist Churches stand for very little." Most Methodist churches are very active in the world and their communities and are show God's love on this earth like few people I have ever met. Ever heard of Salkehatchie? It's a program that I participated in and is still going on today. Youth and adults spend parts of their summers sleeping on gym floors and repairing homes for people who barely have homes to begin with. It's about helping people pure and simple. I'm not sure how you can stand for something more Christ-like than that.

"By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another." John 13:35

[DennisD 65]

CPR,

I don't know much about Methodist so I won't comment on that. What I wanted to add and/or ask is what else was done when those people help build homes for those that didn't have any?

It sounds and I'm sure is a GREAT thing those people are doing but are they also preaching the word of God while doing it? Is there any soul winning being done? Because, you can build a house for someone but they are still going to hell if they aren't saved. A rich man could come and give a bum on a street a house, a car, food, a job but it wouldn't be even close to someone coming and leading him to Christ.

I don't want to marginalize what was done, but I feel churches that actually go out and soul win are blessed more of God than those that just give material things to the community.

:twocents:

[John81 7,400]

Good works won't save us and what appears to be good works isn't necessarily a sign of love for others.

Mormons and Catholics (for two examples) also do a great deal of "good"; whether it be providing food, clothing and shelter or whatever. That doesn't mean they are saved or are showing any Christian love.

[irishman 683]

For many years, the Salvation Army was noted for "helping" people in various ways. They did preach, but they went out and personalized it also, in helping with food, restoring homes, etc, just as the Methodist are said to do here, but THEIR SECULAR WORK GOT THE BEST OF THEM! the same thing happened to Jerry Falwell with his "Moral Majority". They did a good work--a great work, but they left God out of it, and it destroyed their effectiveness in the ministry.

Yes, Methodists DO believe that one can lose his salvation, as do Pentecostals, Nazarenes, and nearly all the others. Eternal Security affects the very core of our being, it HAS to be all of grace or it is no good at all. If we cannot save ourselves, how foolish we are to think we can keep ourselves saved!! It is matter of salvation vs works, period.

By the way, if anyone has ever doubted their salvation it is because they are looking at their works, and not at God's grace. Ask anyone that has went through a time of doubt, and if they are honest, they will say something like "I saw myself as a wretched mess, and knew that I must not be worthy of God's salvation", and they are right in saying it, but they are not saved or lost because they deserve it, but because Christ obtains it for them--and He would deserve salvation if it were needed!

Anyway, please don't be confused by all the good things people do, their righteousness is as filthy rags without Christ.

[CPR 0]

Please understand that we did not hide that we were a church group and the friendships we created with the people we were helping offered us multiple opportunities to share the gospel. Our agenda was not explicitly "soul winning" but only to share God's love as Jesus taught. I don't understand how that is "filthy rags". How do you expect someone to worry about their eternal soul when they have to choose between food and medicine and their floor is collapsing beneath their feet? As Christians we are called to love one another and care for the "least of these." There is a lot more to it than simply "soul winning." The Great Commission is one verse. Not to say it's not important, but there are many more about love and taking care of your fellow man.

[John81 7,400]

Please understand that we did not hide that we were a church group and the friendships we created with the people we were helping offered us multiple opportunities to share the gospel. Our agenda was not explicitly "soul winning" but only to share God's love as Jesus taught. I don't understand how that is "filthy rags". How do you expect someone to worry about their eternal soul when they have to choose between food and medicine and their floor is collapsing beneath their feet? As Christians we are called to love one another and care for the "least of these." There is a lot more to it than simply "soul winning." The Great Commission is one verse. Not to say it's not important, but there are many more about love and taking care of your fellow man.

You make it sound as if the poor and needy can't be bothered with the Gospel. What is of more value, getting right with God or having a plate full of food or a bottle of medicine or a nice floor?

The Gospel has been spread around the world seeing millions upon millions who were poor and needy come to Christ.

There is nothing wrong with helping the poor and needy but they need the Gospel now for today is the day of salvation; none of us are promised tomorrow.

Also, according to Scripture, our absolute best works are yet as filthy rags in God's eyes because such is yet tainted with sin. No works can make us right with God.

[CPR 0]

You make it sound as if the poor and needy can't be bothered with the Gospel. What is of more value, getting right with God or having a plate full of food or a bottle of medicine or a nice floor?

The Gospel has been spread around the world seeing millions upon millions who were poor and needy come to Christ.

There is nothing wrong with helping the poor and needy but they need the Gospel now for today is the day of salvation; none of us are promised tomorrow.

Also, according to Scripture, our absolute best works are yet as filthy rags in God's eyes because such is yet tainted with sin. No works can make us right with God.

Of course coming to God is important, but it does not have to be separate from providing for someone's physical needs. The poor and needy do need the Gospel, but I feel that churches often exploit them because they can be easy "wins." I am not saying that that is what you were implying, but that is my issue with some of the evangelism that many churches participate in today. I think it is best when you take care of the physical and spiritual needs at the same time and make it clear with your actions that you are coming in love. Read the verse in my signature. It is my personal belief that Jesus taught us how to share Jesus with the world.

[DennisD 65]

My point is what those people were doing, a lot of it might be for naught (maybe not in this life but surely in the next since you aren't bringing a house or food with you) if they aren't soul winning and spreading the gospel at the same time. Lets be honest, if you come to Christ and are saved...your needs will be provided. If you have your full faith in our Lord you'll have food somehow and you'll have a place to sleep somehow...God will provide. If spiritual needs are met first then physical needs will follow. If physical needs are provided, the spiritual needs might or might not follow.

Edited May 5, 2010 by Durty

[John81 7,400]

My point is what those people were doing, a lot of it might be for naught (maybe not in this life but surely in the next since you aren't bringing a house or food with you) if they aren't soul winning and spreading the gospel at the same time. Lets be honest, if you come to Christ and are saved...your needs will be provided. If you have your full faith in our Lord you'll have food somehow and you'll have a place to sleep somehow...God will provide. If spiritual needs are met first then physical needs will follow. If physical needs are provided, the spiritual needs might or might not follow.

:amen:

[CPR 0]

My point is what those people were doing, a lot of it might be for naught (maybe not in this life but surely in the next since you aren't bringing a house or food with you) if they aren't soul winning and spreading the gospel at the same time. Lets be honest, if you come to Christ and are saved...your needs will be provided. If you have your full faith in our Lord you'll have food somehow and you'll have a place to sleep somehow...God will provide. If spiritual needs are met first then physical needs will follow. If physical needs are provided, the spiritual needs might or might not follow.

So clearly we should spend all our time "soul winning." Next time I am faced with an opportunity to minister to the needy, I think I'll just tell the hungry child and the old lady with the collapsing roof who can't afford her thyroid medication that they must not be praying hard enough. Either that or they aren't true believers. In fact, I might just tell my priest on Sunday when he asks for volunteers to tutor disadvantaged school children that we should disband the program. Obviously, if these poor children had more faith they would make straight As somehow.

[John81 7,400]

So clearly we should spend all our time "soul winning." Next time I am faced with an opportunity to minister to the needy, I think I'll just tell the hungry child and the old lady with the collapsing roof who can't afford her thyroid medication that they must not be praying hard enough. Either that or they aren't true believers. In fact, I might just tell my priest on Sunday when he asks for volunteers to tutor disadvantaged school children that we should disband the program. Obviously, if these poor children had more faith they would make straight As somehow.

What is obvious is you need to learn some humility and not become offended and sarcastic when a brother in Christ is trying to kindly expound some biblical truth.

No one has said we should not help the poor and needy. What has been stated that to help the poor and needy without also sharing the Gospel is leaving them yet among the most poor and needy; that being those without Christ, destined for hell.

What good is the meal if they happen to die while eating it and they have not heard the Gospel? What good is the new roof if a storm drops it on the owner and they die not having heard the Gospel?

Help the poor and needy, YES, but do not neglect to present them that which they are most in need of, hearing the Gospel.

[CPR 0]

As I previously noted, the love that was shown and the friendships that were built provided opportunities to share the Gospel. Many of the people we were helping were already Christians. Perhaps our ministry was God's way of providing for some of their physical needs.

[irishman 683]

So clearly we should spend all our time "soul winning." Next time I am faced with an opportunity to minister to the needy, I think I'll just tell the hungry child and the old lady with the collapsing roof who can't afford her thyroid medication that they must not be praying hard enough. Either that or they aren't true believers. In fact, I might just tell my priest on Sunday when he asks for volunteers to tutor disadvantaged school children that we should disband the program. Obviously, if these poor children had more faith they would make straight As somehow.

CPR, it is no wonder you do not grasp the spiritual side, (your "priest"?). Surely we are to help the down and out, but why not meet the greatest need of all--Jesus in their life? As John 81 has said, you meet the physical need for today, but they will need again another day; if the spiritual need is met, they have the promise of God they shall "never thirst again" or go hungry; in fact ALL their basic needs will be met, and eventually they will have no more physical needs either. And yes, if the children were taught faith, they would be better off. Edited May 7, 2010 by irishman

[CPR 0]

CPR, it is no wonder you do not grasp the spiritual side, (your "priest"?). Surely we are to help the down and out, but why not meet the greatest need of all--Jesus in their life? As John 81 has said, you meet the physical need for today, but they will need again another day; if the spiritual need is met, they have the promise of God they shall "never thirst again" or go hungry; in fact ALL their basic needs will be met, and eventually they will have no more physical needs either. And yes, if the children were taught faith, they would be better off.

Again, the love that we shared and the friendships that were built (many of which lasted long after we were gone) provided multiple opportunities to share the Gospel. I believe that that is the most effective way to share the Gospel. Also, many of the people were already Christians, and I believe that God may have been providing for them though us. With the tutoring scenario, it's another matter of building relationships. Maybe we are just misunderstanding each other, because I am not saying that we shouldn't share the Gospel and it seems that you are not saying that we shouldn't help others. I think that it is most effective to share the Gospel by first building relationships, and perhaps we have different styles. That's not necessarily a bad thing, different styles can reach different types of people.

So you see, I do grasp the spiritual side. What did you mean by (your "priest"?)?

[DennisD 65]

Sorry I offended you, I am trying my best to speak in love because I've come to anger to quickly in the past. I was not angry or stricken with some sort of hate for what you/they were doing. I think those people were doing good things and should continue but in those endeavors adding soul-winning and preaching of the Gospel would have been prudent.

God Bless.

[CPR 0]

Sorry I offended you, I am trying my best to speak in love because I've come to anger to quickly in the past. I was not angry or stricken with some sort of hate for what you/they were doing. I think those people were doing good things and should continue but in those endeavors adding soul-winning and preaching of the Gospel would have been prudent.

God Bless.

You didn't offend me at all and I hope I haven't offended you either. I think this has made for some interesting discussion among Christians who may share the Gospel through different ways - not necessarily a bad thing.

May God bless you too.

[JerryNumbers 2,474]

My point is what those people were doing, a lot of it might be for naught (maybe not in this life but surely in the next since you aren't bringing a house or food with you) if they aren't soul winning and spreading the gospel at the same time. Lets be honest, if you come to Christ and are saved...your needs will be provided. If you have your full faith in our Lord you'll have food somehow and you'll have a place to sleep somehow...God will provide. If spiritual needs are met first then physical needs will follow. If physical needs are provided, the spiritual needs might or might not follow.

The Methodist Church in our town, it does many wonderful works, yet denies God in its beliefs, its works, and how it runs its church.

Its so true, many today, even professing Christians, thinks wonderful works ='s salvation. Yet with out Christ, any and all of our works are not accepted.

The greatest thing one can do for any person, poor or rich, very popular or highly unpopular, it is to share Christ with them.

If I remember right, someone said something about receiving grace from observing the Lord's Supper. I do not see that taught in the Bible. What I see taught is that we observe the Lord's Supper in remembrance.

Lu 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

1Co 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

1Co 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

[CPR 0]

The Methodist Church in our town, it does many wonderful works, yet denies God in its beliefs, its works, and how it runs its church.

Its so true, many today, even professing Christians, thinks wonderful works ='s salvation. Yet with out Christ, any and all of our works are not accepted.

The greatest thing one can do for any person, poor or rich, very popular or highly unpopular, it is to share Christ with them.

If I remember right, someone said something about receiving grace from observing the Lord's Supper. I do not see that taught in the Bible. What I see taught is that we observe the Lord's Supper in remembrance.

Lu 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

1Co 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

1Co 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

We were not trying to earn salvation through our works, because we are saved by grace through faith. We were simply trying to love others as Jesus taught us.

[JerryNumbers 2,474]

We were not trying to earn salvation through our works, because we are saved by grace through faith. We were simply trying to love others as Jesus taught us.

You may not have been, yet many of them are. Did you know the number of us who believe one is saved by works is a very small minority, most believe one is saved by works, baptism, and or church membership.

And even if your one among them who believe one is saved by faith, your still part of a church that is not run as a New Testament Church described in the pages of the New Testament. Women in positions of authority over men.

[John81 7,400]

The Methodist Church in our town, it does many wonderful works, yet denies God in its beliefs, its works, and how it runs its church.

Its so true, many today, even professing Christians, thinks wonderful works ='s salvation. Yet with out Christ, any and all of our works are not accepted.

The greatest thing one can do for any person, poor or rich, very popular or highly unpopular, it is to share Christ with them.

If I remember right, someone said something about receiving grace from observing the Lord's Supper. I do not see that taught in the Bible. What I see taught is that we observe the Lord's Supper in remembrance.

Lu 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

1Co 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

1Co 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

Sounds much like our local Methodist church. Along with this they also teach one can lose their salvation and therefore one must "be good enough" to make it to heaven. That's not truly saved by grace through faith, though that's what they claim is how they get saved.

The actual teaching is more accurately that they claim to be saved by grace through faith yet they also teach one must meet some unknowable "standard of goodness" in order to maintain ones salvation. That's not scriptural but that is why some Methodists go out and try to perform "good works" and attempt to keep up an appearance of "goodness" so they may hopefully attain heaven.

[JerryNumbers 2,474]

Sounds much like our local Methodist church. Along with this they also teach one can lose their salvation and therefore one must "be good enough" to make it to heaven. That's not truly saved by grace through faith, though that's what they claim is how they get saved.

The actual teaching is more accurately that they claim to be saved by grace through faith yet they also teach one must meet some unknowable "standard of goodness" in order to maintain ones salvation. That's not scriptural but that is why some Methodists go out and try to perform "good works" and attempt to keep up an appearance of "goodness" so they may hopefully attain heaven.

That is true, yet they teach tolerance and acceptance of the sins of homosexuality.

[CPR 0]

Sounds much like our local Methodist church. Along with this they also teach one can lose their salvation and therefore one must "be good enough" to make it to heaven. That's not truly saved by grace through faith, though that's what they claim is how they get saved.

The actual teaching is more accurately that they claim to be saved by grace through faith yet they also teach one must meet some unknowable "standard of goodness" in order to maintain ones salvation. That's not scriptural but that is why some Methodists go out and try to perform "good works" and attempt to keep up an appearance of "goodness" so they may hopefully attain heaven.

I'm sorry if your local Methodist church was incorrect. I'm not sure if they are affiliated with the UMC, but I have taken confirmation classes and I promise they do not teach works based salvation.

Okay, I believe in love the sinner hate the sin. As far as homosexuality goes, Leviticus says that it is an abomination. Well guess what? It also says that I should go stone my mother for wearing clothes woven of different fabric. Oh and my uncle? He plants different crops side by side. So I guess i have to put him to death too. Perhaps you can advise me how to handle this situation according to Leviticus?

[irishman 683]

I'm sorry if your local Methodist church was incorrect. I'm not sure if they are affiliated with the UMC, but I have taken confirmation classes and I promise they do not teach works based salvation.

Okay, I believe in love the sinner hate the sin. As far as homosexuality goes, Leviticus says that it is an abomination. Well guess what? It also says that I should go stone my mother for wearing clothes woven of different fabric. Oh and my uncle? He plants different crops side by side. So I guess i have to put him to death too. Perhaps you can advise me how to handle this situation according to Leviticus?

A little extreme aren't we CPR?
How many of those things you listed are an "abomination"? That is a mighty strong word; if God hates something enough to call it abomination, then He still hates it today! I am saying that, sure there are many things that we do not adhere to today, in the law, but we had better realize that an abomination is still abominable to our Lord; He hasn't changed his mind in the N.T. about hating sin, and it didn't pertain only to Israel if it was abominable. Are you justifying the condoning of homosexuality? it sure sounds like it. Even the N. T. deals with "effeminate" practices (1 Cor. 6:9 for one), but implied in several other places. To condone that which God condemns, especially from an ecclesiastical position is...well you figure it out.

We have too much of this sham love! We think that if we stand against sin, then we are "hate mongers" and that is exactly what the world wants us to think. Today we can hardly speak against homosexuality, lest we be ostracized at the least, and maybe even incarcerated! Love does the right thing; it obeys Gods Word, and aligns itself with it; love is often different from our meager concept of it. It contains chastisement, grace, judgment, instruction, and the whole realm of Christian graces, and yet we only wish to emphasize the "lovey-dovey" side of it. Sure we should help people, but is that all there is to our Christianity? is that what we were created for? The greatest need that man has is Jesus, and everything else is secondary.