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Calvary

What does the Bible say about music?

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[quote]
However, we have much better reasons for excluding these styles than misapplying 1 John 2:15-16.
[/quote]

So what are the reasons you refer to here? Are they bible based? What scriptures would you use to exclude those styles?

By the way, I really agree with termite about the tone of that one paragraph that you removed. I was struck by it also. It detracts from your argument, IMO. I think if you stick to the facts without any inflammatory rhetoric or language then it would come across more as a study that people might find informative rather than a cause that you are fighting. JMO

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[quote]
What follows was very well put, but stopped short of the point where it was logical to take a stand on something.
[/quote]

I have taken the stand that the Bible allows me to. No further. I dare not place my personal preferences on par with the word of God.

Many brethren have standards. I do too. When our standards become the outward sign of our spirituality, or better said, the gauge of our walk with God, we err.

It can be a host of things. From home schooling to beards on men. I have heard so much stuff thrown out simply under the banner of "it's wordly".

To be honest, I have simply said that EVERY style of music can be found in the world, so what does that prove?

Jerry said it well when he said to the effect 'Why don't we just give them Christian rock since they already liked rock before they were saved.'

Superficially that looks right. It even sounds logical. Yet it has no biblical backing whatsoever for rejecting rock and roll. It is pure emotion.

If I were to say, "let them have the classics, they already liked that before they were saved" I would be making a nonsensical argument.

My opinion on what entails good music is as good as yours.
In fact I would no doubt be right in agreement with what youn like. But I don't run to the Bible and snatch verses out of context to "prove" my stand is right with God. I simply admit that it's what I believe is conducive to a decent and orderly worship service as far as the way I worship is concerned.

I have said:
[quote]
The music in our church does not run along these lines for the simple reason that I do not want to offend a weak brother or sister. But to say that playing loudly and heartily, with multiple instruments of varied sound is wrong would be to oppose the truth...

There is no doubt in my mind that godly music can assist a godly man in his service for the Lord. On that we should agree...

Music was the tool of those who were evil, NOT THE SOURCE OF THE EVIL...

Singing, playing and dancing are all approved of when the heart is right and are seen to have been hurtful when the heart is wrong...

1 Corinthians 14 makes it clear that we are to sing ina language known to ourselves and to our hearers. Songs of the spirit are also to be songs of the understanding. The saint ought to know what he is singing and what he is singing about...

Singing is to be directed both man-ward and God-ward. One is to minister truth, comfort, strength and such like to other believers through the use of music. And one is to express their hearts love, praise, longing, cares and so forth to the Lord by use of song...

Our songs should be rich in scripture. They should be characterized by wisdom and those hearing them should learn something of the Lord or be admonished in their walk with him...
[/quote]

I more than concur with many of the posters on this board as to what they listen to.


And I do not resent being called a drama queen, or a devils advocate. (Though I can only speculate as to why no one was censured for their poor treatment of the poster on this board)

I know who I am. I am a born again, bought by the blood child of God who will be in glory forever by the saving grace of my Saviour Jesus Christ who has learned to try his own convictions by the book, not popularity.

[b]The LORD is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the LORD is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid? [/b]

May God richly bless you.

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All music of the world is not bad, but, the things is much of it is, much of it glorifies, sex, drugs, and such, there is no room in a Christians mind for any such music.

And there's music in the world that a Christian can listen to, but, even it should not be brought into the church.

Jesus' Church is a very special place. It deserves much reverence. We don't need to copy the worldly ways of playing and singing music and bring it into Jesus' House.



Jerry said, <>

I agree, I fail to understand his point, isn't for it, but defends it.

Edited to add what is below, nothing took out or changed.

<>

That seems what many of the liberal crowd does now days, they will not take a strong stand, seems they fear they will offend someone.

The fact is, one who holds to the true Word of God will offend many.

Did you ever notice how many Jesus offended?

<>

Rightly, I don't know how to take this. It seems to me the later part could have been left off, it reminds me of the Pharisees of Luke 18:9-14.

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Why do you bother spending time refuting "ridiculous" arguments here that no one is advocating? It is like building a straw man to make youself look good while you demolish it - and then say, "Look at me, I sorted out these other areas, so I must be right in this one too. Now let me show you my viewpoint and how right it is."

Why not spend time refuting the arguments of those you are actually dealing with here. Might be more profitable. What you are posting is not.

[b]IF, as [i]you [/i]say, the Bible does not advocate ANY kinds of music, nor has clear Biblical principles whereby we can arrive at a conclusion as to what kind of music honours and glorifies the Lord, then all you have to offer us is [i]your opinion[/i] - which is no better than anyone else's. So why "correct" others by [i]your opinion[/i]?[/b]

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Here is an excellent article, refuting some of what this other member is trying to teach us:

[url=http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/IF-musicisneutral.html][b]IF MUSIC IS NEUTRAL[/b][/url]

[quote]
[b]If all musical styles are neutral, WHY DOES THE BIBLE SPECIFY THAT BELIEVERS SHOULD SING A CERTAIN KIND OF MUSIC?[/b]

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Great article from the David Cloud web site Jerry.

15 points on why music is not nuetral.

[quote]
Here is an excellent article, refuting some of what this other member is trying to teach us:
[/quote]

The truth is however beloved brother, I have not taught that music is neutral. Not once.

Thank God for my posts that can be re-read and verified by any one who wishes to do so.

Again I draw the reader to my actual words, not what this brother is saying I am saying.

[quote]
There is no doubt in my mind [u]that godly music can assist a godly man[/u] in his service for the Lord. On that we should agree...

Music was the tool of those who were evil, NOT THE SOURCE OF THE EVIL...

Singing, playing and dancing are all approved of when the heart is right and are seen to have been [u]hurtful when the heart is wrong[/u]...

1 Corinthians 14 makes it clear that we are to sing in a language known to ourselves and to our hearers. Songs of the spirit are also to be songs of the understanding. [u]The saint ought to know what he is singing and what he is singing about[/u]...

Singing is to be directed both man-ward and God-ward. [u]One is to minister truth, comfort, strength and such like to other believers through the use of music.[/u] And one is to express their hearts love, praise, longing, cares and so forth to the Lord by use of song...

Our songs [u]should be rich in scripture[/u]. They should be characterized by wisdom and those hearing them [u]should learn something of the Lord [/u]or be admonished in their walk with him...
[/quote]

I have never even suggested that music is nuetral.
In fact I stated with clarity the purpose for music in the life of the believer.



Look again at the "opinion" of this writer about what is godly music.

[quote]
Our songs should be rich in scripture. They should be characterized by wisdom and those hearing them should learn something of the Lord or be admonished in their walk with him...
[/quote]

I am no expert in the current fads of contemporary music as I do not listen to it.
If they are not rich in scripture, then dump them.
If they do not demonstrate wisdom (by that I would mean an understanding of the scriptures) then dump them.
If I cannot learn something about my Saviour from your song, then I don't care to hear it really. If you like it, well, go ahead, I have better use of my time.
If I cannot be admonished by your song, then why should I listen to it when I have a host of tapes that do admonish me to live a life pleasing to my Saviour.

Music is nuetral? I wouldn't think so at all.

No Jerry, I think you're trying to make me say what you believe I believe, perhaps you could try reading my posts with a little more comprehension beloved.

God bless you.

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I didn't say YOU said music was neutral - but I said the article refuted some of what you were stating - that there are no specific types of music that are wrong.

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Guest Guest
Calvary, you say that no kind of music is wrong. I have to disagree. What about heavy metal which was made simply to worship and glorify the devil? A lot of rock music was made to do that too.

Katy-Anne

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Calvary,

I'm enjoying the merry-go-round.

For the first time, you've made an argument with which I can agree. Christians should not violate copyright law - Amen to that.

In other news today, the sky is blue.

You ask what we would think if you condemned Wiersbe, but sold his books? The same that we think of you now, when you don't condemn CCM, etc., but proclaim, "I don't endorse anything."

You make every argument possible for someone to use any kind of music in the service and worship of the Lord - that's endorsing something. You take any verse(s) that have to do with separation/holiness and explain them away as being "taken out of context." You make an arrogant statement to the folks on this board, and apologize by saying "My apologies to any one that had such pride that they thought I meant them." Of course we would think that you were talking to us, since it is us with whom you were conversing, correct?

Around and around we go.

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[quote]
I am not asking for folks to stop singing beautiful songs that are beautifully arranged. I am asking that folks stop wearing a mask of hating or being fully separated from certain types of music when I know that that music is used while condemning and defrauding the composers of it.

That is what is going on a large scale in this matter of music. All over the US in IFB churches, it goes on all day long.
[/quote]

Just because some people are hypocrites doesn't make all people hypocrites. Yes, stealing music is wrong - whether good or bad music. The solution: be right in all areas and don't compromise. Don't say someone shouldn't stand in one area because someone else is not standing somewhere else. We are dealing with right music here, not copyrights. Changing the subject doesn't make your position automatically right (or wrong), though it does seem a sidetrack of the thread.

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Jerry8087... said

[quote]
And there's music in the world that a Christian can listen to, but, even it should not be brought into the church.
[/quote]

I can't for the life of me understand how you can do something at home yet you wouldn't do it at the church house.

The music I listen to at church is the same I listen to at home.


To the sister that asked about what scripture I would use to exclude rock and roll from my personal listening. I personally cannot understand what they say.

1 Corinthians 14 makes it clear that we are to sing in a language known to ourselves and to our hearers. Songs of the spirit are also to be songs of the understanding. The saint ought to know what he is singing and what he is singing about...

God bless you.

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Let me see, what music do I listen to, only old gospel hymns, but if feel assured, some people may well listen to some music, that does not glorify sex, drinking, drugs, and such, that rightly would not fit in worshiping Jesus, but yet they would be no sin to listen to.

Me, I'm not up on the music that is out there is the world, I'm just not no fan of music, other than what we sing at church. But I feel sure, someone on this board can name some music that would be alright to listen to at home, that they would not carry to church.

You write good words, but its ruined by you not taking a stand against certain kind of music. One has to take a stand, to stand for something, to stand for something, one has to be against something.

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I cannot understand how someone who [i]doesn't [/i]believe music is neutral, doesn't think that there is a way (beyond personal preferences) to determine which musical style please the Lord.

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[quote="Calvary"]
I can't for the life of me understand how you can do something at home yet you wouldn't do it at the church house.

The music I listen to at church is the same I listen to at home.
[/quote]


Easy. We listen to and sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs at church and at home. But we also appreciate classical music, folk songs and kids songs at home (not at church). I can enjoy listening to Handel, Beethoven, Mozart, etc. at home as well as singing "Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star" with my children.


We don't listen to "Christian" Rock, CCM, "Christian" Country or Southern Gospel at church or at home. It is a standard that applies to all of our life.

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Bad lives equal bad music

Frequently men who do not care for a certain type of music point out the horrific lives of the people that play that certain style of music and use this as proof that it is evil. But the task is not all that difficult since there is not a just man upon the earth that doeth good and sinneth not. This is in no way to make light of sin, God hates sin, but to rule out every class or type of music on the basis of sin in the lives of performers is a poor argument indeed.
I have read articles detailing the indiscretions of Amy-Grant-Chapman-Gill, and her affair, divorce and remarriage were gross violations of the word of God. Sandi Patti- Halverson

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[quote]
[b]Should we quit listening to preaching because many of the most gifted expositors and pastors have been guilty of immorality?[/b] I trow not. Just because preachers discredit their Master does not render what they preach and how they preach an evil thing.
[/quote]

No, we shouldn't stop listening to preaching - BUT WE SHOULD STOP LISTENING TO THOSE SPECIFIC PREACHERS!

[quote]
The greater parts of these were written by a man who had multiple wives, was guilty of adultery and was a conspirator in a murder and its cover-up. If you are going to use the argument that such and such music is evil because those who wrote and or performed it are or were wicked than you would have to reject the Psalms of David.
[/quote]

THERE IS A HUGE WORLD OF DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A REPENTANT SINNER WRITING SONGS OR BOOKS - AND AN UNREPENTANT SINNER WRITING THE SAME WHILE THEY ARE INVOLVED IN THEIR SIN. King David did not write any music (at least not that is in the Bible) while he was involved in his sin - but only afterwards, after he repented of it - and it clearly shows his repentance and grief over his sin.

Unfortunately, these groups that are getting exposed in CCM, etc. are writing and performing their music while they are not just struggling with their sin but actually living in it, while they are addicted to their pornography, while they are walking in their adultery. Something written to God during that time would be against Him, sin in His eyes - not something that glorifies Him. However something written later that acknowledges and repents of the sin, calling it what it was, and stating how Jesus can forgive and cleanse it can bring glory to God.

There is a whole lot of difference between these two positions.

[quote]
My point is simple. Just because someone who writes or performs a certain type of music is immoral or doctrinally incorrect does not allow for a blanket condemnation of their music.
[/quote]

We don't sing any songs by those that are wacky. Some of those that you mentioned are not even in our hymnals (may be in yours) - and if we know something is wrong with a composer, we don't use it. We don't reject someone over minor difference - but if they did not even understand salvation, we are not going to sing their songs. Also, while we may not reject a composer over minor differences, we are certainly not going to use any songs that they wrote that are not sound.

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Why do Southern Gospel Groups call themselves a ministry?

Some of the names you spoke of I have heard of, some of them I have not, I rightly do not keep up with all of that stuff, it rightly don't seem to be something a Christina should be involved in.

Why all the reward in this business, is not God suppose to be our reward, why do they brag about their rewards, why do they accept rewards, do real people who are of God brag about their selves or do thing to receive rewards from man?
1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

Matt 6:1-2 (KJV)

I have a friend who is a member of another Baptist Church, he was a deacon, his wife left him, he gave up being a deacon, I think he was right. But now the point I'm getting to.

He is a wonderful singer, I love to hear him sing old hymns, he make them so beautiful.

I mentioned to him God has sure given you a wonderful gift for singing.

He replied something like this, Yes, but I really don't know how to make use of it.

I told him, singing in your church, and if another church invites you to sing at their church, your making very wise use of the gift God has give you, to many people take their gift and use it unwisely, your not doing that, and you are a success, your doing this for God, many of those out in the world in the music business are not, they are doing it for self, and living off of God, and calling themselves a ministry, which they are not. Keep up what you are doing, and always do it for God, and keep on living for God just as you are, you will be a success in God's eyes, that is the only thing that counts.

To me, Southern Gospel and others are just a business, a business about money, with many people living off of God. I would not have none of them in my church.

That is MHO, I know many in the world and many Christians will not care much for MHO.

And again, it seems to me you use all kinds of thing not to be against something.

There is music out there that is evil, that is being brought into many churches, weather you believe it or not.

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[quote]
THERE IS A HUGE WORLD OF DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A REPENTANT SINNER WRITING SONGS OR BOOKS - AND AN UNREPENTANT SINNER WRITING THE SAME WHILE THEY ARE INVOLVED IN THEIR SIN. King David did not write any music (at least not that is in the Bible) while he was involved in his sin - but only afterwards, after he repented of it - and it clearly shows his repentance and grief over his sin.
[/quote]

Sounds good, perhaps even logical. But again, you couldn't prove that statement by the scriptures.

David WAS an adulter when he wrote what LATER became included in our Bible. David DID kill a man, he WAS guilty and there was and is NO offering for that sin under the OT.
Solomon DID have 1000 wives.

Those are just facts. Those are not my "opinion".

Psalms 51 is the only pasasge that you could be thinking of.

What about the circumstances under Pslams 36? How about 38? 61? I suppose we'll never know.

The argument "bad lives = bad music" just can't stand under the light of the scriptures.

God bless you.

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[quote]
Sounds good, perhaps even logical. But again, you couldn't prove that statement by the scriptures.
[/quote]

Sure I can:

The title of Psalm 51, which is part of the Psalms in the Hebrew Masoretic text is:

[b]...A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bath-Sheba.[/b]

After he had repented he wrote this Psalm.

God does not contradict Himself, nor change - this is what He says about using only vessels that are clean:

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
2 Timothy 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
2 Timothy 2:21 [b]If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. [/b]

Psalm 38 was written by a repentant David - the context of the Psalm itself shows that (regardless of what sin he was repenting of). What do Psalms 36 and 61 have to do with David's sin?

[quote]
The argument "bad lives = bad music" just can't stand under the light of the scriptures.
[/quote]

In light of 2 Timothy 2, I would say I just did prove that it does stand the light of Scriptures.

Oh yeah, HERE IS ANOTHER EXCELLENT PASSAGE:

2 Peter 1:21 [i]For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but [b]HOLY MEN OF GOD spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost[/b].[/i]

Yes, God used sinful men to pen His Word - but He used them when they were clean vessels - when they were holy, not walking in sin. I think that verse also stands by itself. You can have your pet theories, and waver on whatever weird line you want to waver on - but God says He uses holy men, and I think that is exactly what He means.

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I don't know - but God's Word does not say it was a sin, so it doesn't matter. He cautioned them about having more than 1 wife - but the OT did not teach it was a sin, so to apply your standards today to someone living 3000 years ago is pretty foolish.

Granted it was not God's perfect will for their lives - but He allowed it.

God says He used holy men to pen His Word. What part of [b]holy [/b]do you not understand? If you go to the top of the page, you can click on the Dictionary Search link and find out what Webster's states that word means. Might help you get a Biblical definition of this word. Sorry I cannot help you beyond that.

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