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Calvary

What does the Bible say about music?

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Well, I was post banned on a topic here. Wow! Seems that my post was viewed as a diversive threat to someone.

Although, all it did was quote some scripture. It in no way endorsed any CMM, rock or any other "style" of music. Fact is it didn't endorse anything.

May I be allowed to speak?

Part II
INSTRUMENTS OF MUSIC

Now let us consider the catalog of musical instruments found in the scriptures. If one takes an honest look at the terms used in the word of God and then allows for the variations within these terms it is possible that an entire orchestra was available as far back as David and Solomon, certainly by the time of the Babylonian captivity.
These instruments of music found in the Bible may be divided into 3 classes, string, wind, (including both brass and woodwinds) and percussion

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[quote]
We like that 3000 years past. If we inserted the name Pastor Joe for David and placed that in a fundamental church today few would think it right. Are we following the Bible or the peer pressure placed on us by good men who love Jesus?
The music in our church does not run along these lines for the simple reason that I do not want to offend a weak brother or sister. But to say that playing loudly and heartily, with multiple instruments of varied sound is wrong would be to oppose the truth.
[/quote]

You seem to be assuming an awful lot.

***Do you know [i][b]everything [/b][/i] about the melody of their music.???

***Do you know [b][i]everything[/i][/b] about the context of those verses???

***Do you know [b]all[/b] the words (the lyrics) of their music???

***Do you understand [i][b]everything[/b][/i] about their culture and mores of their way of life???

These and many more questions like them you are unable to answer. So then, before you try to equate cultures, time-periods, or O.T. Hebrew versus N.T. church-age worship styles, you need to do [i][b]a lot more [/b][/i]homework.

[color=darkred][i][b][size=18]I can promise you this, if you were post-banned by any of the mods and/or admin on this board, then it was for a very good and valid reason[/size].[/b][/i][/color]

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Excellent questions. My point is not the melodies that were or not played. Truth is I doubt that you can prove what they were. But I bet they were along the lines if Arabic musical scales, the locrian mode.

My words are as follows:

[quote]
The music in our church does not run along these lines for the simple reason that I do not want to offend a weak brother or sister. But to say that playing loudly and heartily, with multiple instruments of varied sound is wrong would be to oppose the truth.
[/quote]

What I am sensing on this board is a pre concieved notion that I am trying to promote rock music or whatever. Nothing farther from the truth could be said.

[quote]
These and many more questions like them you are unable to answer. So then, before you try to equate cultures, time-periods, or O.T. Hebrew versus N.T. church-age worship styles, you need to do a lot more homework.
[/quote]

Don't be so sure that I cannot answer the questions beloved brother. I have studied music for over 30 years.
I also have made no equation of culture, time-periods or OT versus NT worship styles.

God bless you.

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I like this post much more than the first one even though I enjoyed reading the first one also.

There seemed to be an undertone to the first one that sounded more like you were putting yourself above brethren who you seemed to perceive as weaker. I can understand the frustration of having people make their weaknesses the "law" of the local church because I do feel as if that is adding to scripture. But the brother/sister who has the liberty should never use that liberty at the expense of a brother's stumbling. This post reflects more of that spirit, so that's why I prefer this one.

I hope I'm making sense here.

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Although I wasn't the one who deleted the previous thread, I would've if I had seen it first. For someone who claims to not be for anything, you push all of the arguments that someone who is for those things would claim.

[quote]
Although, all it did was quote some scripture.
[/quote]

I re-read your previous post after reading this comment. After entering it in WordPerfect, I found out you used 1799 words in that post. About 200 words of that was Scripture. In other words, 11% Scripture,89% opinion, not quite "all it did was quote some scripture."

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Tarheel, I'm not sure which post you refer to.
As far as this post, or the other, if it ever sees the light of day, what part was my opinion? Opinion is something subjective, and influenced by a point of view.

[b]The viol (Isaiah 5:12; 14:11, Amos 5:23; 6:5) was the forerunner of the violin and cello. This 6 stringed instrument was played with a bow and was made in various sizes depending upon the sound desired...

Harps are mentioned 50 times in the Bible...

The sackbut (Daniel 3:5-15) is not the modern wind instrument of today... [/b]

As right you are that those statements, and the dozens like them (which reflect the tone of the entire article, and is representative of the writing) are not scripture, they are not opinion either. They are actually refrences to scripture which are far more than just opinion. They do in fact present many facts that are indisputable seeing that they mention what the scritpure says. So I will take your statement as a typically, challenging, yet baseless response to Bible truths presented.

The statement that I didn't endorse anything, in the context (if we read comprehensively) means simply that I did not endorse any "style" of music, be it the Baptist Hymnal (which is what we use where I am) over another style, yet it [the post] certainly did endorse the Bible as the final authority over whatever man made convictions we may hold to and believe.

My desire is simply talk about what the Bible really says, not what we think it means. If I am in the wrong place for stimulating Bible talk, let me know, I will bow out very quietly.

God bless you.

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I was referring to the first part of your post in this thread:

[quote]
Well, I was post banned on a topic here. Wow! Seems that my post was viewed as a diversive threat to someone.

Although, all it did was quote some scripture. It in no way endorsed any CMM, rock or any other "style" of music. Fact is it didn't endorse anything.
[/quote]

You claimed that all you did was quote Scripture. That was a false statement. It was 11% Scripture/89% your opinion.

Your talking points are extremely similar to those who push for CCM, etc:

[b]The Bible is silent about musical styles, so it doesn't matter what I use to worship the Lord.

Psalms gives us the ok to worship with dancing, etc.

Music is the most important part of a service. [/b]Do churches who use CCM put an emphasis on preaching? My opinion? No

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So what does the Bible say about music?

If in fact those who "push for CMM" use these arguments what does that change? I make no apologies for standing upon what the word of God says, my final authority, even if my brethren find it unpleasant.

Doest thou well to be angry?

If the Bible speaks of a music that when it was played it was of such a nature that God's people danced to it, we must say, "Yes, that is what the Bible says." But one must remember, no where does the Bible command us to dance, so therefore we are free to abstain, although nowhere could you legitmatley condemn those that do. By doing thus, you have gone farther than the Bible will allow and lifted up your personal preference over and above the word of God.

Here is some more of what the Bible actually says about music.

_________________________________________________

In the Bible there are some notable musical events.

We have an account of David playing upon a harp calming Saul who was troubled by an evil spirit from the Lord. (1 Samuel 16:15-18, 23)

[b]1Sa 16:15 And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.
1Sa 16:16 Let our lord now command thy servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well.
1Sa 16:17 And Saul said unto his servants, Provide me now a man that can play well, and bring him to me.
1Sa 16:18 Then answered one of the servants, and said, Behold, I have seen a son of Jesse the Bethlehemite, that is cunning in playing, and a mighty valiant man, and a man of war, and prudent in matters, and a comely person, and the LORD is with him.
1Sa 16:23 And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him. [/b]

It happened exactly as it is recorded. However to make the leap (as many do) to try to establish a doctrinal truth that certain types of music subdue, drive out, attract or provoke evil spirits is speculation at best and outright falsehood at worst.

(Please read that again) Such is not taught anywhere in the word of God.
Here is a common theme in Christian books on modern music.

A. Saul had an unclean spirit.
B. David played classical music and the spirit was subdued.
C. So I listen to that kind of music.

So did your unclean spirit move out? What about those of us who are not possessed of devils? This argument is only valid by those who check their brains at the door and submit to the convictions of their minister because it

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[quote="tarheel"]
Do churches who use CCM put an emphasis on preaching? My opinion? No
[/quote]

Hmmmm - guess you've never been to our church. We use some CCM along with old hymns of the faith (A Mighty Fortress is Our God, for example) and choruses. Our philosophy is balance. And preaching the Word is the most important part of the service.

Please don't lump all "CCM users" into one big lump.

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Guest Guest
First of all, I don't think anyone on this site has ever said that certain types of music will drive out unclean spirits. And I have never heard it preached that Saul was possessed. Most preachers I've heard have said that Saul was probably depressed. Even now, music is still used as a form of therapy, and it works. I can't be dogmatic about that passage, but the depression theory is much more plausible than the possession theory.

[quote="Calvary"]
This much is clear from the Bible. There is no verse saying that a particular type of instrument is wrong or forbidden. There is no specific information on what style of music, what tempo or meter and melodic patterns are good and which are evil. Singing, playing and dancing are all approved of when the heart is right and are seen to have been hurtful when the heart is wrong.
[/quote]

Music is a form of communication, and God has a lot to say about communication. The Bible doesn't say we should use such-and-such time signature, or that the blues scale is evil, or don't use a major seventh chord, or that any certain style of music is wrong, or that we have to write all our music in the key of D major, but the Bible does lay down principles we can use to determine what is appropriate and what is inappropriate.

To the best of my knowledge, the only technical reference the Bible ever makes to music is the command to make [i]melody[/i]. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe there is any command to create rhythm, or harmony, or even counterpoint. None of those things are wrong; in fact, a good melody contains its own rhythm and meter as well as having its own implied harmony. But technically speaking, melody should be the focal point. If the cool harmonies and the overpowering beat are the most interesting part of the music, then there is a problem.

Of course God didn't tell us that some melodic patterns are good and some are evil... that would be no different than if He had listed everything that could ever be said in any language, and told us which things were good to say and which things were evil. He gave us principles, and expected us to learn from those principles what is right communication and what is wrong communication. Music is no different.

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[quote]
tarheel wrote:


Do churches who use CCM put an emphasis on preaching? My opinion? No


Hmmmm - guess you've never been to our church. We use some CCM along with old hymns of the faith (A Mighty Fortress is Our God, for example) and choruses. Our philosophy is balance. And preaching the Word is the most important part of the service.

Please don't lump all "CCM users" into one big lump.
[/quote]

:goodpost:

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If my post offended anyone, I'm sorry.

If I could rewrite my last sentence, it would read:

Do churches who use CCM [b]exclusively[/b] put an emphasis on preaching? My opinion? No.

Yes it's a general statement, but general statements can be true.

I'm all for balance - it's a great thing, as long as it includes proper, holy, separated elements on both sides.

CCM (Contemporary Christian Music) folks and TSM (Traditional Sacred Music) folks will never find a balance, since [b]the true TSM position is a position of separation, not infiltration[/b].

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[quote]
CCM (Contemporary Christian Music) folks and TSM (Traditional Sacred Music) folks will never find a balance, since the true TSM position is a position of separation, not infiltration.
[/quote]

:goodpost: :goodpost: :goodpost: :goodpost:

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I guess I don't really understand the differences between CCM and TSM exactly. I didn't know there were official stands on this. I just knew there was a lot of animosity between the two groups.

As far as dancing to the Lord, in the privacy of my own home I could dance, sway, lift up my hands to just about ANY TSM song. They all have a beat to me. I find myself in church swaying back and forth and lifting up the hand that isn't holding the hymnal to some of the music. I can't sing a note but some of the hymns are just downright true worship and I feel like I'm standing in the presence of the Lord worshipping. I can forget myself at moments like that. How do you all feel about that?

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How I [i][b]personally[/b][/i] feel about raising hands when you're singing is that there's nothing wrong with it as long as you're not drawing attention to yourself. But what's more important is what the Bible says about it.

What [i][b]does[/b][/i] the Bible say about lifting hands in worship and praise? I know it's not all that common in IFB churches (most IFB folks keep both hands on the hymnal), but is there actually anything Biblically wrong with it? I admit I haven't studied this out very thoroughly.

EDIT: Here are a couple of verses I found:

Psalm 63:4, [b]"Thus will I bless thee while I live: I will lift up my hands in thy name."[/b]

Psalm 134:2, [b]"Lift up your hands [in] the sanctuary, and bless the LORD."[/b]

Lam. 3:41, [b]"Let us lift up our heart with [our] hands unto God in the heavens."[/b]

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The dancing in the church idea is not Biblical, but a bunch of charismatic junk. David danced before the Lord - and if you study it out, it was basically leaping for joy - not some dancing in the spirit. I have seen that and it is enough to give you chills!!

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I see what you're saying, Jerry, and I agree -- the majority of what goes on in Charismatic churches isn't Biblical; but does lifting up the hands necessarily constitute "dancing"?

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Could you explain what you mean by "all music has a beat"? I'm not sure I understand what you meant exactly there.

All music has a tempo; some, faster than others but not all music has a "beat" like you want to do the boogy-woogy to it.


Listen to these first two selections and tell me if you think they have a beat and also tell me if you can hear a difference in their style, depth and quality and the style, depth and quality of the third or fourth selection.

1. http://www.oldchristianmusic.com/mprodu ... grace.html - scroll down and click on "Amazing Love".

2. http://www.oldchristianmusic.com/mprodu ... f-god.html - scroll down and click on "I Sing The Mighty Power of God".

3. http://www.michaelwsmith.com/index2.php *

4. http://www.christianitytoday.com/music/ ... smith.html *


*My apologies for the 3rd and 4th link. I felt it was necessary to show a difference in TCM and CCM.

**Edited because the 3rd link wasn't working. Maybe that's a good thing! :lol:

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No. I was not referring to that. But I also think that we should not let the charismatics tell us what each thing means.

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Well, I don't put the hand all the way in the air because some of the folks there could probably have a stroke, :D but it just has a tendency to turn upward probably shoulder high, Chelle. I do know that David danced with joy, like Jerry said.

I understand what you are saying, Jerry, and it is with joy that I do dance to the Lord sometimes. I agree that some of the antics and flailing and "dancing in the spirit" is just plain carnal. Getting into the fleshly feeling rather than the spirit. Nothing like a good emotional feeling to make you "feel" like you are in your spirit. Sometimes I wonder if it is just an attempt to increase their faith by making God feel more real. I don't know. People are dying for a sign which is scary because

Mat 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

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[quote="Jerry"]
No. I was not referring to that. [quote]But I also think that we should not let the charismatics tell us what each thing means
[/quote] .[/quote]

No, of course not. I agree with you there. :)

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Bakers, I never studied music so I don't know anything about it. I may be using the wrong terms, I don't know. I just know that every song has something in it that I can seem to be able to sway to for some reason.

I came from a background of rock and roll and used to dance up a storm. I've walked into "Christian" bookstores where they are playing some "music" and I can't hear the lyrics so I feel like I just walked into a bar. I've been in plenty of bars in my lifetime so I can tell you that there is not a lot of difference in these songs sometimes.

When I was first saved I liked CCM. It was music I loved with the message I loved. It didn't get any better than that. I was so naive about it all that I was singing "My Sweet Lord" by George Harrison to Jesus. When I finally heard the lyrics that I think said "Hare Krishna" in it I was HORRIFIED!

It's been a long walk for me. There's music I prefer and music I literally loathe. To me it has to be respectful, sincere, with a truthful message and without all of the "look at me I'm a performer" aspects to it. I can't really explain it. I just know it. Sorry if this is confusing.

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