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AmazingGrace

Whats up with the Gaithers??

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I've heard some sg that is definitely off on doctrine, as in holding on and holding out (losing your salvation).


You do have to remember that Southern Gospel is not limited to Baptist so yeah there are some doctrinal error in SG.

Ever hear of John Newton ? He was a priest of the Church of England and and in all the portraits I have seen his hair would be considered excessively long.
newtonportraitdp6.jpg
Know what else he did ? He wrote Amazing Grace. I doubt any IFB would fellowship with the Anglican Church.

I find it ironic that the same people who would not sing a song by Bill Gaither the ecumenical compromiser, will a sing a song by John Newton Anglican priest. Also the origin of the tune is one of question

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Well, his hair certainly is poofy, but it is not halfway down his back - it is still above his neck, so most people would not consider that long.


I find it ironic that the same people who would not sing a song by Bill Gaither the ecumenical compromiser, will a sing a song by John Newton Anglican priest.


Was his theology off? Was he off on salvation? Did he yoke up with unbelievers and promote unity" among apostate denominations? Why confuse the issue?


Also the origin of the tune is one of question

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I find it ironic that the same people who would not sing a song by Bill Gaither the ecumenical compromiser, will a sing a song by John Newton Anglican priest.


What about you, Tim? Do you separate from John Newton? The Bible teaches that men are not to have long hair, and quite clearly teaches that long hair is rebellion against God's authority in his life. If you personally believe his hair is too long (and believe that he had this hair length when he wrote that song) and you STILL listen to it anyway, what does that say about you? Do you have a desire to please and glorify the Lord in all areas of your life - or most areas minus the entertainment area? When we deliberately hold back areas in our lives from God, that is backsliding and God is not pleased with that.

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Tim's point is valid Jerry. It is a double standard to sing Amazing Grace (which I'm sure you sing at church) sung by an Anglican minister when Anglicans are so iffy in doctrine, but to condemn those of us that listen to Bill Gaither. You gotta be consistent Jerry.

Katy-Anne

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I am consistent - you yourself read a Bible translated by Anglicans. Who is being inconsistent here? :roll:

Show me that Newton's doctrine or even lifestyle was wrong and I will stop listening to and singing Amazing Grace.

I am not against Gaither (and those who sing with him) because of his denomination (I don't even know what it is), but because of his beliefs, his compromises, the long hair, and because he is ecumenical. No contradiction here - I apply this to the music I listen to, to the books I read, etc.

Not every Anglican was unsaved - also, consider WHEN Newton lived, there were more saved Anglicans back then - now today that denomination would be considered apostate. The Wesleys were Anglicans too - I am not endorsing all Wesley's doctrine - and I won't sing songs that have wacky doctrine (they do have a few) - but they were saved.

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but to condemn those of us that listen to Bill Gaither.


I just realized what you have done here - you have built a straw man and put something in my mouth I have never said - I have been speaking about separating from groups that had problems - and you turn it around into stating I was condemning people here (like you and Tim), which I have not done here.

However, you have both called me or implied I was hypocritical and inconsistent - which I am not in this regard. Who is in the wrong?

P.S. why does that charge always come up? Deal with the issues - is what is taught right or wrong? Are the Biblical principles right or wrong? If right, then apply then - and stop explaining them away completely by implying there are some others who don't apply them themselves. What are we accountable for? How others apply the Bible or how WE apply the Bible? If the principle is right, apply it to all areas of your life where it is appropriate to do so.

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I interrupt this thread for a very important message...

Y'all do know that the portrait of John Newton above shows him wearing a POWDERED WIG, right? Most clergy and judges wore powdered wigs back in those days. His hair is probably cut quite short to accommodate his wig.

and now back to our regularly scheduled thread...

P.S. One of my most favorite hymns is "I Saw The Light" by Hank Williams, Sr. He was a man who was very lost, and he found salvation and composed a song about it,just before he died. If you have never heard this song, you can listen to a portion of it here... http://www.amazon.com/I-Saw-Light-Hank- ... B000001F3R

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Quote:
I find it ironic that the same people who would not sing a song by Bill Gaither the ecumenical compromiser, will a sing a song by John Newton Anglican priest.


What about you, Tim? Do you separate from John Newton? The Bible teaches that men are not to have long hair, and quite clearly teaches that long hair is rebellion against God's authority in his life. If you personally believe his hair is too long (and believe that he had this hair length when he wrote that song) and you STILL listen to it anyway, what does that say about you? Do you have a desire to please and glorify the Lord in all areas of your life - or most areas minus the entertainment area? When we deliberately hold back areas in our lives from God, that is backsliding and God is not pleased with that.


Nope I don't separate based on the length of hair (I believe this is one of those areas where the Lord will work as a Christian matures) but hair length was mentioned as one of the reasons some here separate from the Gaither's. Neither have I found it necessary to separate from Gaither's music based on Bill Gaither's supposed associations. I think there is much to be gained from John Newton's song and much to be gained from Bill Gaither's. My post did nothing but point out the inconsistency in the way some here apply music standards.


Show me that Newton's doctrine or even lifestyle was wrong and I will stop listening to and singing Amazing Grace.


Apply your personal standards to Newton's doctrine. Newton was an Anglican Priest (aka Catholic lite), he administered Mass, he heard confession, etc...


Katy-Anne wrote:
but to condemn those of us that listen to Bill Gaither.


I just realized what you have done here - you have built a straw man and put something in my mouth I have never said - I have been speaking about separating from groups that had problems - and you turn it around into stating I was condemning people here (like you and Tim), which I have not done here.

However, you have both called me or implied I was hypocritical and inconsistent - which I am not in this regard. Who is in the wrong?

P.S. why does that charge always come up? Deal with the issues - is what is taught right or wrong? Are the Biblical principles right or wrong? If right, then apply then - and stop explaining them away completely by implying there are some others who don't apply them themselves. What are we accountable for? How others apply the Bible or how WE apply the Bible? If the principle is right, apply it to all areas of your life where it is appropriate to do so.


I do think your application of separation in this area is inconsistent based on your comments here. You ask me to show you where an Anglican priest is off in his doctrine :?

"Are the Biblical principles right or wrong? If right, then apply then - and stop explaining them away completely by implying there are some others who don't apply them themselves."
Why is it okay for you to imply that I explain away biblical principles but not okay for me to point out the inconsistency I see in your application of the same principles ? I personally do no find a solid reason to separate from Bill Gaither's music or John Newton's song. If you do then without a doubt you should do so. If you are going to point out why you think separation is necessary from Bill Gaither, I think it is necessary for you to show consistency or a least explain why the same standards do not apply to John Newton or any other song writer. You say there is reason to separate from Bill Gaither but do you consistently apply the same principles to John Newton. Have you done the same in-depth research on John Newton that lead to your separation from Bill Gaither ? If not why not ? I want to understand why the standards are different or if you think they are not different how you can say you or others are applying the standards consistently in this case.

BTW this isn

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Anglicans do not do mass nor confess to a priest. That is Catholicism. Yes, they have various similarities, but not in all things.

Newton isn't off on salvation, nor was he ecumenical, nor did he teach some charismatic doctrine in his songs. That is why I am separating from Gaither and those he sings with.

Are you telling me that someone that has been in the music ministry for years still needs to mature enough to know that long hair is wrong on a man? Must have skipped out on reading the New Testament then...


If you are going to point out why you think separation is necessary from Bill Gaither, I think it is necessary for you to show consistency or a least explain why the same standards do not apply to John Newton or any other song writer.


I am not inconsistent in applying my standards to all areas of music. You may bring up something I have not considered yet - but that doesn't make me a hypocrite or inconsistent. At least I APPLY Biblical principles to my music and the musicians that I am familiar with - do you? You have already disregarded several in this thread - what criteria DO you use in judging your music?

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but that doesn't make me a hypocrite


Jerry you know very well I think you are far from a hypocrite, though I do see inconsistency based on the examples I gave above. I don

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Anglicans do not do mass nor confess to a priest. That is Catholicism. Yes, they have various similarities, but not in all things.


Really


England, Church of, the established church of England and the mother church of the Anglican Communion.
Organization and Doctrine

The clergy of the church are of three ancient orders: deacons, priests, and bishops. Except for the celebration of the mass and giving absolution, deacons have the same clerical functions as priests. Only the bishop can ordain, confirm, and consecrate churches. A bishop is given consecration at the hands of other bishops. There are two archbishoprics, Canterbury and York, with the Archbishop of Canterbury taking precedence over the Archbishop of York. The church is established, and all episcopal appointments are still made by the crown; however, the clergy are not paid by the state. Women have been ordained as deacons since 1987 and as priests since 1994, and in 2005 the church voted to initiate the process that would remove the obstacles in church law to consecrating women as bishops. Homosexuality is not a bar to ordination, but being in a homosexual relationship is.

In 1919 the Church Assembly was established, consisting of three houses: the upper and lower houses of convocation (i.e., the bishops and other clergy) and an elected house of laity, with the power to prepare measures for enactment by Parliament. In 1970 the Church Assembly was replaced by the General Synod, which retained the basic administrative structure but streamlined certain aspects of church government and allowed for greater participation by the laity. Worship is liturgical and is regulated by the Book of Common Prayer and its revised alternatives, but it varies in degree of ritual between parishes. The creeds in use are the Apostles', the Nicene, and the Athanasian. General standards of doctrine are found in the Thirty-nine Articles, the Book of Common Prayer, the Catechism, and two 16th-century books of homilies. Authority rests in Scripture as interpreted by tradition.

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There was a big difference between the Anglican and Catholic churches I went to as a teen. I was never taught to confess my sins to an Anglican priest - and the way they handled the Communion was somewhat different. I have not researched it - my comment was based on my experience. If I was wrong, I apologize.

Regardless of that, it seems you much prefer someone to have no standards to gauge their music than to have some, but apply them inconsistently. Better to try and fail (in the eyes of others), than follow the world, the flesh, and the devil without a fight.

Does it all matter? Does it matter if we apply Biblical principles to our lives - especially when it comes to separating or abstaining from evil or the appearance of it? Does it matter what music you listen to, which teachers you follow, which "brethren" you yoke up with, which movies you watch, which Bible versions you read?... If we are not doing our best to base our decisions and choices in all areas of our lives by the Word of God - what is guiding or influencing our choices?

Judges 21:25 In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

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If I'm not wrong the Anglican Communion has a wide range of different churches within it.

Some are ultra-liberal (e.g. Episcopal USA). The conservative ones I heard of (e.g. Protestant Episcopal), I believe, are heavily influenced by five-pt Calvinism. In my country the Anglican church is still pretty conservative (against homosexuality and casinos) compared to the European and USA ones, but IMO, it is neo-Evangelical, and largely influenced by the Charismatic movement. (and so do most Protestant churches in my country, that's why many of them offer the Alpha Course)

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Regardless of that, it seems you much prefer someone to have no standards to gauge their music than to have some, but apply them inconsistently. Better to try and fail (in the eyes of others), than follow the world, the flesh, and the devil without a fight.


That is an out right misrepresentation of what I have said.... having standards is essential, just as being dilligent in applying those standards consistently.Basing those standard on scripture is also essential and that is exactly who I strive to do. What is a standard unless it is consistent. If you can't apply it consistently is it really a standard or does it then become a preference ? None of us are perfect we can't be 100% in anything except the assurance of salvation. If SG is something you prefer not to listen to no problem. If you don't listen to all or some because of your scriptural based standards, great. IMHo if the same standard can be applied to hymns then the application should be made and the stand taken to be consistent.

The jest of this whole thing is ...Is Bill Gaither's music acceptable for a Christian to listen to ? I believe it is, you do not. I apply the same standard I used to come to my conclusion that I apply to all other music. Do you and others who agree with you use the same standard 100% of the time for all music or is it applied based on other factors ?

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It sound like we are starting to beat a dead horse at this point. Both sides got their input in and Scripture was clearly presented to support their beliefs. By locking this thread I am not stating that any member that posted in this thread did anything wrong, I just do not want this get out of hand.

Keeping these kind of threads under control is what makes Online Baptist different from other forums.

If anyone has any comments on this thread being locked then please PM me. My door is always open.

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