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Doc H

Bluegrass gospel/southern gospel-need advice

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Except it isn't just the worldliness that makes it right or wrong. That is where we have the problem. You don't promote "worldly" rock music. You promote rock music that is done by good Christian family groups.

You have the idea that if they don't "act" like the world and the sound is supposedly different from the world, then it is okay. You have not given any Scripture that makes music right or wrong. Music is not amoral, yet by your arguments, it seems that is what you would make it.

If there is a repetetive rock beat, then it is rock music. Whether it is done by a good southern gospel family or not, it is still the same rock beat.

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It's you who doesn't want this conversation public. Except that here, you can't delete his posts, so you have to put up with them.

Katy-Anne


At the risk of sounding like a broken record.

NOONE WANTS TO HEAR YOUR ARGUMENTS ABOUT WHATEVER PAST YOU ALL HAVE TOGETHER. GET OVER IT.

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Seriously Katy-Anne what in that post was edifying or constructive.

I think the debate between thses two has been interesting but because it is getting personal I think taking it to PM would be a good idea.

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Taking it to PM is what ncuthman wants, and we are not going to give him what he wants.

Katy-Anne

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Kevin, I would ask that you not misrepresent our ministry. Anyone with an ounce of discernment could listen to our radio and clearly see that we are not promoting rock music. I am sorry that you do not have this discernment.


Music sounds good so far. But the condescension in this post is not befitting of a pastor.

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Dwayne, stop being so rude about a situation you know nothing about.

Katy-Anne


I realized that my previous plee for you guys to cease this rediculous bantering, as well as some other regulars requests for the same, was done in the Men's forum, so you were not privy to them.

As to knowing nothing about this, I don't want or need to. From the day ncuthman came here he has had his head bitten off none-stop. Now deductive reasoning says he and you all were on another forum together and that did not go well. Take your personal vendettas to PM or leave them at the door. Noone wants to hear it. If you guys would seriously sit back and read the posts from a neutral perspective you all would be amazed at the tone and content of the posts directed to ncuthman.

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My suggestion was based on comments about what had happened in the past


I haven't heard your radio recently to know what you play on there. The link doesn't seem to work. I do, however, know the kind of music you promote. I've heard songs that you've given to Katy-Anne and it is obvious by your arguments on here the kind of music that you promote.



Except it isn't just the worldliness that makes it right or wrong. That is where we have the problem. You don't promote "worldly" rock music. You promote rock music that is done by good Christian family groups.


Bringing in past discussions or experiences from another forum in a public forum like this makes it hard for ncuthman to defend himself. Since we are not privy to the music or conversations you are referring to it appears you have a prejudice against ncuthman.

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You have no idea of the nastiness of the situation Dwayne. It's not just a "forum" thing like you think it is. Like I said, you know nothing about it whatever, therefore you are speaking without knowledge, and therefore we don't need your advice.

Katy-Anne

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My suggestion was based on comments about what had happened in the past





Bringing in past discussions or experiences from another forum in a public forum like this makes it hard for ncuthman to defend himself. Since we are not privy to the music or conversations you are referring to it appears you have a prejudice against ncuthman.


NCuthman has also brought up past discussions that we were not privy to as well. He instigates much. Let's not treat him as an innocent party.

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Music sounds good so far. But the condescension in this post is not befitting of a pastor.


Will, I am not a pastor, I am a very unique missionary.

I apologize if my post was condescending, that was not my intention.

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It goes a lot deeper than not getting along in another forum. It is his intolerance to other people's beliefs and the fact that he hounds about it until they agree with him that we have a problem with. The fact that Katy-Anne and I are "heretics" in his eyes because we don't believe in birth control. But that's only the tip of the iceberg. He's a good charmer. And I've known some good ones.

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Will, I am not a pastor, I am a very unique missionary.

I apologize if my post was condescending, that was not my intention.


I'm not in need of the apology here ncuthman. Your original comment was not directed at me. Again, I would ask that neutral corners are taken.

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NCuthman has also brought up past discussions that we were not privy to as well. He instigates much. Let's not treat him as an innocent party.


Which is exactly why I think PM is best for resolution of this topic. I never once said ncuthman was an innocent party. I was simply replying to the post that said

As long as I am having a civil discussion, I don't see as why it needs to be done via pm. It is he who stated I didn't have an ounce of discernment. I made no such comments.

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I should of clarified. ncuthman's post do come off as condescending. My admonishion was to all of them.

Again Katy-Anne, the level of "nastiness" does not EVER give you a right to treat someone with disdain. Oh, but he was REALLY mean, so that emans we get to be mean back??? Where is the grace in that.

All I am saying is whatever you all have between you deal with it on your own and off these public boards. It is ugly and nasty (on both sides) and does not at all picture the love and grace of Christ.

I will stop as this is not my fight, but I think this whole thing is ugly as sin.

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I should of clarified. ncuthman's post do come off as condescending. My admonishion was to all of them.


I appreciate the comment. I do tend to come off the wrong way sometimes, and I am working on that. However, I was defending myself in an unfounded accusation. Honestly, to my shame, I became quite frustrated, and my frustration bled through.

Music is very dear to me. It is also an area where I have struggled - both with worldliness as well as legalistic application of Biblically unfounded principles. I have been on both ends of the spectrum. I have found balance in Scripture. Since finding that balance, I have also enjoyed blessings and the fullness of joy only the Lord can provide.

At this point, since the topic has digressed completely away from music, I have nothing else to say.

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Hey Doc H, it's Alen here :) , sorry I didn't get a chance to say hi to you at church, sorry! :(

I am not too very well aware of all the different genres of Christian music, and from what I do know, I can only really comment on what I heard. Which by no means is a broad knowledge of all that genre has to offer.

Bluegrass gospel, southern gospel. From what I have heard from these genres, I have not really liked, it pushed the limit with the focus on the beat, very fast paced. This is too worldly for my tastes. I definitely would not want this to be played within a church setting.

As I have already stated, I have not heard too much from this genre, so for all I know the rest of it may be good, and I just listened to some particular bad performers.

From what I heard I would not recommend it however.

-Alen

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Acceptance doctrine is so pervasive in some fellowships that Christians are no longer allowed to question another Christian's behaviour or personal preferences. If you confront another in love, you will be accused of judging them. If you dare qoute chapter and verse from the Bible, you will be called a Pharisee...

When we brought rock music(and all its musical cousins) into the church service, we invited along with it a spirit of immorality with which that music is unavoidably associated. It wasn't obvious at first. We didn't use hard rock; instead we used more acceptable, watered-down forms of it: soft rock, pop/rock, country rock, and easy listening jazz styles. These styles supported the warm and fuzzy, falling-in-love-with-God feelings we wanted to have in worship. They were less edgy but still contained the underlying rock beat that undeniably appeals to our flesh and reminds us of the world's favourite music...

Let me sum up a Contemporary's typical attitude towards any who oppose the use of CCM in the church. 'We need to pray for these poor, tradition-bound people who just don't understand the heart of worship. They are standing in the way of what God wants to do.' I am not making this up - I once had the same attitude.

This condescending attitude leads to a spirt of divisiveness...

Anyone who stands in their way will be labeled a legalistic pharisee...

The contemporary's attitude signals that anyone who resists should either go along with the programme and accept CCM or find another church. This spirit has affected even pastors...

In my own experience, I noticed that we Contemporaries preferred to raise our faces and hands up to God, and called that worship. But as we saw earlier in this chapter, worship is not looking up and feeling good, it is bowing down and feeling lowly...

The feelings we sought and produced in people were 180 degrees from fear; our worship made us feel closer to God, accepted for who we are!

I first encountered teh self-indulgent, entertainment-minded attitude...when I was a worship leader in Colorado. The underlying attitude revealed itself whenever we debated the place of contemporary music in a worship service. It was not lying there on the surface where it may have been easier to spot. It was well hidden beneath the standard arguments, and it usually surfaced only after those arguments had been successfully refuted. Sometimes this attitude manifested itself in a common defensive response from a Contemporary, the accusation that anyone disputing their position was a hypocrite and a Pharisee.

...because the music styles carry with them teh baggage of the world's immorality. It does not matter if you change the lyrics. It does not matter if you change the musicians. It does not matter if you change the record labels. It does not matter if you ask God to sanctify it. Rock music and all it's children...can and will corrupt the morals of everyone who practices it...

Psalm 150, the great and culminating praise psalm, is often used to support this view of praise music.

I do not agree with that interpretation because it conveniently ignores the cultural and historical context of the Psalms in order to support CCM. Today we do not use the Hebrew instruments and worship styles to which these verses refer. We do not conform our services to the strict guidelines for reverence, purity and sanctification laid down by David in 1 Chronicles 16...The Hebrews used percussion instruments, but I think it is ridiculous to, as some do, directly relate the drum set used by groups such as the Rolling Stones to the timbrel and cymbal mentioned in Psalm 150...

(Excerpts taken from "Why I Left the Contemporary Christian Music Movement by Dan Lucarini, confessions of a former worship leader")

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Though some of the attitudes in this quote are questionable, we can agree that Contemporary Christian Music is a dangerous infection in the church. I do not believe anyone here is promoting the garbage.

There is, however, one particular point where this author is in error, though. You cannot disregard Scripture. This author is blatantly disregarding Psa 150. No instrument, when used correctly, is evil or bad. I will quickly grant that some instruments are more difficult to control than others and thus, require far more attention to balance in their use.

It is uncanny, though, how the author contrasts the 'looking to heaven' with a meek and lowly attitude. I am happy to say that so often the music in our worship services causes that meek and lowly attitude. In fact, it usually results in people at the alter!

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I am happy to say that so often the music in our worship services causes that meek and lowly attitude. In fact, it usually results in people at the altar!


I hope I'm not misreading your post, but it sounds like the music gets folks to the altar and not the preaching? You can attend any CCM concert and hundreds will walk up to the "altar" (stage). And that's right after they bumped and grinded (grounded?)into each other for two hours. Do you think the Holy Spirit is encouraging that?

Music has its place, but many churches today are incorporating so much music that the preaching is becoming secondary. I don't know your church, but if you're saying the music brings folks to the altar and not the preaching, then I'd say something's out of kilter.

Please tell me that I'm reading too much into your post.

Mitch

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I don't know your church, but if you're saying the music brings folks to the altar and not the preaching, then I'd say something's out of kilter.


Mitch, you are absolutely correct, in many contemporary churches, things are out of kilter. In those (CCM oriented) churches, the music is without a message, without Scriptural backing, without depth of any kind and without conviction. Thankfully, that is not so with our church. If it were, I would never have stayed more than one service.

I would also agree that the Lord is not magnified at a rock concert deceptively marketed as a Christian event.

However, you should be careful not to make a broad statement as you did. If you are saying that music cannot move a man spiritually, then pages 599 - 671 of my Scofield Bible need to be removed and ignored as they are equally fruitless. (for those of you who do not have a Scofield, that would be the entire book of Psalms)

Yes, music has been abused, but that is no reason to discard it's utility in bringing a man to repentance. Where it has been abused, the message was deleted or diluted. With us, the Biblical message is quite clear.

I think that in many churches, the 'order of service' has replaced the leading of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit of God is constrained to fit in a box. At one church we attended, we were clearly warned that the service would end promptly at 12:00 with or without us. If a man dictates how the service will be run, what need is there for the Holy Spirit?

Something that amazed me when we first visited our church was the sincerity of the people at the alter. It is not a show. I have seen people shout. And I have seen people cry. But never, until this church, had I ever seen people shout praises to God for victory and for their joy while streaming tears from their eyes.

I suppose what I am trying to say is that at our church, it is neither the music nor the preaching that moves the soul - it is the Holy Spirit. Whether the Holy Spirit chooses to use the message in the music or the message delivered by the preacher, it is still the Spirit of God ministering to the individual soul that moves people to the alter. To be a good service, where souls are legitimately stirred, you do not need three points and a poem followed by two verses of Just as I Am.

It has been interesting and wonderful to see how much more I, personally, get from the preaching when I have allowed the Holy Spirit to use the music to prepare my heart for the preaching. Yes, this means that sometimes, I am at the alter before the preacher opens his Bible.

I have been working on a message for quite some time. That message is entitled, "That Used to be a Shoutin' Church". So many churches are closing around our nation. But before a church closes, it becomes cold. Before it becomes cold, the Spirit departs.
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
I have always heard this preached as Jesus knocking on the door to our heart. But the verse took on a whole new meaning to me when a man preached that verse in the context of the Lord knocking on the door of the church, wanting to get in.

I don't know if I have answered your question or not. I will simply say this: in all the churches we have visited through our ministry, there have been none like our home church. I praise God for leading us here!

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There is, however, one particular point where this author is in error, though. You cannot disregard Scripture. This author is blatantly disregarding Psa 150. No instrument, when used correctly, is evil or bad. I will quickly grant that some instruments are more difficult to control than others and thus, require far more attention to balance in their use.


He didn't disregard it. He specifically pointed it out. Percussion instruments have their place but as he said earlier on in the post, it is the underlying rock beat that undeniably appeals to our flesh.

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