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1. I never said definitions were unimportant. I implied that definitions need to be correct. 2. The Greek supports the definition of the word. Just like any dictionary gives definitions. 3.

I feel that your definition of "rule" denotes only the negative aspects of a ruler. Not all who rule are bad, evil, unfair, or serve their own self-interests... Romans 13:3, Hebrews 13:7, 17

SAB76, I've answered you biblically. I've answered the questions that you proposed in your last post. In fact, my answer(s) are in the post that immediately precede your latest post. I no lo

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

I am about as mainline IFB as anyone and probably the last person you would think of as a "Ruckmanite", but I have listened to his tapes for years, read the BBB, and know people who currently go to PBI. I find him to be very down-to-earth and practicial.

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i find that i agree with him more than i disagree.all you may believe differently but i believe in alot of his things that he teachs from the bible.my sister,brother,cousins,and my sisters fiance goes there.everyone in my church has either gone,will go,or is going.and i believe God is calling me to study there before i go to Malawi Africa.i have heard that people that go to PBI last the longest out in the field because Dr Ruckman is hard on them PREPARING them for the troubles ahead.i dont want to fail in the field...most of you will say"God will not let you fail" but God helps most the time...he doesnt do everything he expects you to do somin yourself.Im going to go to PBI.i think my mind is made up.at PCC i have heard that many people that go there lose their faith in the KJV as the true holy word of God.and honestly i dont think i could ever trust another bible college.im going to open an orphange in Malawi Africa and i will teach those kids and in order for me to teach them i must be taught and taught according to what i believe.
sure i could study the bible for myself and figure out everything.but that takes years and i would rather learn from the bible quickly within a few years because as im sitting here at my laptop some kid could be starving and no place to go,no clothes to clothe themselves with.

Im going to PBI.as soon i as i finish geometery tho.which means i leave next year around august.and who cares if ill be the youngest there.(i love geometery)

for BobOwen.
i wasnt sure whether you were bashing or not.but im glad you werent.Pastor Robinson is the best Pastor in the whole world.hes kindhearted,and hes out to win souls,and instead of preaching the same sermon over an over again he gives the church real meat of the Bible.im glad to hear you know him and that you know what i mean when i talk about him.he even said my piano playing was good :D which is a big thing for me because i only started piano lessons a month ago and learning classical songs.ill say it again....
MY PASTOR IS THE GREATEST!!!!:D


Amie Jo


(p.s. think thats long enough?)

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Pastor Mitch,

Did you read my previous posts about Ruckman. I"M NOT A RUCKMANITE!!! Dr. Ruckman has had only 2 ex wifes and he is still in good heath for a man over 80.

A lot of Pastors don't get it. I was introduced to the King James Bible from Pastor Steve Sturgeon first. Then we found a great Bible Believing Church over a hour drive away from our home which we made the trip every week the Pastor by the name of Ron Robinson. Then we met Sam Gipp and family twice in two years. After Sam left the second time I kept hearing him and others around our church talk about the Doc or Dr. and PBI. THen I asked who they were talking about. Pastor Brad Frisen and Bro. Paul Huddlestun said you did not know about Dr. Ruckman. They gave me his autobiography and I read it. Also some of his messages.

So you are totally blameless too?? Never sinned huh? Sounds like those who say they are like the Nazarene.

BLA'MELESS, a. Without fault; innocent; guiltless; not meriting censure.

Without fault anything folks!!! Men have you ever slept with a lady before marriage? According to the Book your married. The bible says if you have KNOWN a women you have been joining flesh with flesh.

The modern tradition is our wedding ceremonies not what the Bible calls a marriage.

So God does not forgive people. All men must be perfect for them to be any part of the ministry.

All the men who preach who went to PBI are not qualified to preach because they were taught by a sinner and a man who was faulty.

Eat, drink, and be merry because there is not a faultless man on earth!!

Bro. Bob Owen
who Pastor Mitch does not know!!

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Did you know that rat poisoning is 98% corn meal? 98% of it is good stuff. It's just the 2% poison that makes it bad. You may agree with most of the things he says, but if he's teaching the gap theory, that makes him a heretic. If you agree with it and wish to discuss the validity of the theory we can do that in another post. However, most everyone on this board is not deluded by it.

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JJJ,
do you read my posts?

Here is what I said:
Pastor Ron Robinson was my Pastor in Oregon long ago. I heard about the gap theory from him first. Matter of fact I even after the sermon that he mention it he showed it to me. He is a good friend of our family I've watch his kids grow up. I was introduced to him after I heard a message from Pastor Steve Stergeon about the King James Bible.

Pastor Ron was Pastored under Lester Roloff not Dr. Ruckman.

Did I say I heard the gap theory from Dr. Ruckman? Nope!!
Did I say I beleieved the gap theory? Nope!!

I've not seen in scripture any thing to say it is not true either. I don't think it is poison to hear from the list of Pastors I listed earlier??

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[color=#a30000]What is so deadly about the gap theory is that it is a compromise for Christians who try to reconcile what the Bible says with what evolutionists say. Evolution is a false religion; it is not science.

The gap theory is 100% wrong. God says He created everything in 6 literal days. Period.[/color]

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[quote="Bakershalfdozen"]
[color=#a30000]What is so deadly about the gap theory is that it [b]is a compromise [/b]for Christians who try to reconcile what the Bible says with what evolutionists say. Evolution is a false religion; it is not science.

The gap theory is 100% wrong. God says He created everything in 6 literal days. Period.[/color]
[/quote]

I fully remember being indoctrinated into the Gap Theory with the Scofield Bible and the Bible Church we attended when I got saved at the age of 12 (early summer of 1956). That was fifty years ago. Just look at the evil and corrupt fruit that false teaching has borne. From that false religion and its ilk we now have all manner of apostasy and error. It is clearly seen in the false Bible versions, the MVs, sloppy Christian music, aka CCM, and the modern Southern Gospel stuff with its moon-croon style and mush-gush antics from the performers.

A little leaven leavens the whole lump.

It's all part of the falling away of the last days.

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[quote="BobOwen"]
JJJ,
do you read my posts?

Here is what I said:
Pastor Ron Robinson was my Pastor in Oregon long ago. I heard about the gap theory from him first. Matter of fact I even after the sermon that he mention it he showed it to me. He is a good friend of our family I've watch his kids grow up. I was introduced to him after I heard a message from Pastor Steve Stergeon about the King James Bible.

Pastor Ron was Pastored under Lester Roloff not Dr. Ruckman.

Did I say I heard the gap theory from Dr. Ruckman? Nope!!
Did I say I beleieved the gap theory? Nope!!

I've not seen in scripture any thing to say it is not true either. I don't think it is poison to hear from the list of Pastors I listed earlier??
[/quote]

I did not say you believed in it. Just said if you do we can discuss it in another post. I am glad to know you do not believe this.

What is the gap theory? It is an attempt to unite the worse heresy schemed by man: evolution; with the only written truth we have from God: the Bible.

Compromise. Plain and simple.

What is devastating about it? The Bible says:

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

According to the gap theory, death is not a result from sin. If millions or billions of years happened between the verses in Genesis, and many animals died during that time and placed fossils, then death is something natural and not a punishment from God. Therefore sin is not the cause of death. Therefore no need for a Saviour.

Also, according to gap theory, God didn't mean it when he said, Genesis 1:5 "And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. [b]And the evening and the morning were the first day[/b]." Nor did he mean that "And the evening and the morning were the second day." and each other time it says this.

So much for God being honest. I don't know how you could get anything else out of, "And the evening and the morning were the first day."

Exodus 35:2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

The Jews seemed to understand what he meant pretty well with the sabbath. It didn't mean some abstract thing such as "a long time period".

Compromise is how the catholic church got started.

Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

You take out the first precepts and all the rest fall out. I wouldn't be surprised if they soon stop teaching salvation by grace through faith (assuming they still do).

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[quote="Bakershalfdozen"]
[color=#a30000]What is so deadly about the gap theory is that it is a compromise for Christians who try to reconcile what the Bible says with what evolutionists say. Evolution is a false religion; it is not science.

The gap theory is 100% wrong. God says He created everything in 6 literal days. Period.[/color]
[/quote]

You beat me to it. :lol: I type too slow.

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Don't know how scientists can ignore the Bible. My dad is a self-made geologist and also Creationist and has taught Creation classes in a few churches. The world is full of literal proof of the flood...which is also literal proof of the entire Biblical account. Everything in the Bible can be proven by studying geology, archaology, and the fossil record!

The gap theory is ridiculous because it makes up an entire doctrine or historical period that is NOT THERE. Its like saying there should be a verse after John 3:16 saying we have to stand on our head for 30 days in addition to salvation. You can't just arbitrarily add stuff to Scripture.

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[quote="JJJ4given"]
[quote="Bakershalfdozen"][color=#a30000]What is so deadly about the gap theory is that it is a compromise for Christians who try to reconcile what the Bible says with what evolutionists say. Evolution is a false religion; it is not science.

The gap theory is 100% wrong. God says He created everything in 6 literal days. Period.[/color]
[/quote]

You beat me to it. :lol: I type too slow.[/quote]

[color=#a30000]
That's ok, JJJ. :mrgreen: You wrote more that I did and I hope it is helpful to anyone who might be confused about the gap theory. You are right about death coming because of and after sin and not the other way around.[/color] :goodpost:

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BobOwen,

I apologize if I misread your obviously judgmental post defending Dr. Ruckman:

[quote]
Have anyone one here ever MET Dr. Ruckman??
Have you ever called him and ask him a question??
Have you ever heard his complete testimony from him in his own words??? Have anyone here had a parent divorce another parent?? Has anyone here read your Bible in your life time over 200 times cover to cover?? Has anyone here tithed over 25%?

Has anyone here heard of the following:
James Modlish
Steve Stergeon
Doug Fisher
Rick DeMichele
Rick Sowell
Brad Frisen
Paul Huddlestun
Ken Blue
John Paisley
Tim Shanks
John Haveman
Chuck Schlink
Nick Serino
Ron Robinson
and on and on and on ....

Did any of you cut out Psalms 51 yet out of your Bible?

Bro Bob Owen
[/quote]

The vehemence with which you posted indicated you were defending Dr. Ruckman and that the men you listed were in agreement with him. And you were defending him with such vigor that it appeared you agreed with him as well. If that's not the case, then I suggest you post your comments more calmly so others can really understand what you are saying.

[quote]
A lot of Pastors don't get it. I was introduced to the King James Bible from Pastor Steve Sturgeon first. Then we found a great Bible Believing Church over a hour drive away from our home which we made the trip every week the Pastor by the name of Ron Robinson. Then we met Sam Gipp and family twice in two years. After Sam left the second time I kept hearing him and others around our church talk about the Doc or Dr. and PBI. THen I asked who they were talking about. Pastor Brad Frisen and Bro. Paul Huddlestun said you did not know about Dr. Ruckman. They gave me his autobiography and I read it. Also some of his messages.
[/quote]

I don't understand this comment, especially the first sentence. What are "pastors" supposed to get from your personal history? What is your point?

[quote]
So you are totally blameless too?? Never sinned huh? Sounds like those who say they are like the Nazarene. BLA'MELESS, a. Without fault; innocent; guiltless; not meriting censure.
[/quote]

Blameless does not mean sinless. If it did, then there would be no preachers at all. The connotation of blameless means that no one can lay blame on a person. Therefore, a pastor should be a man that no human can find fault with. That doesn't mean perfection, but the pastor has not committed a "public" sin that would damage the reputation of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[quote]
Without fault anything folks!!! Men have you ever slept with a lady before marriage? According to the Book your married. The bible says if you have KNOWN a women you have been joining flesh with flesh. The modern tradition is our wedding ceremonies not what the Bible calls a marriage.
[/quote]

I take great exception with this. Are you accusing me of this? On what basis do you make this accusation, sir? Or are you just assuming that all men do this? Is this an admission on your part as well? Tread lightly here.

[quote]
So God does not forgive people. All men must be perfect for them to be any part of the ministry.
[/quote]

God forgives, if the person who sins repents. But the qualifications of 1 Timothy 3 still stand. If you go back and read my post, I said Dr. Ruckman could still preach, but he could not pastor. You are confusing the difference between pastoring and preaching. We are all commanded to "preach," i.e., spread the gospel, but we are not all called to pastor (nor be a deacon). There are sins that God brings to my attention that I still deal with, but those sins do not disqualify me from the pastorate, in accordance with 1 Timothy 3.

Any church member in good standing can work in any ministry of a church. However, if they have done what Dr. Ruckman admits doing (divorce), then they cannot pastor nor be a deacon. Scripture is crystal clear on that - why can't you see it? If you can find in 1 Timothy 3 or in Titus where God says you can go back to the pastorate or deaconship if He forgives you for violating the qualifications, then please show us where it is.

[quote]
All the men who preach who went to PBI are not qualified to preach because they were taught by a sinner and a man who was faulty.
[/quote]

I didn't say this. However, if the instructor is teaching error, and the men under him continue to spread that error, then they are faulty and should be removed from the pastorate, because they are no longer "blameless."

The wording of your post led me to believe Dr. Ruckman taught the gap error because a couple of the men you listed you said believed in it. I made a faulty assumption based on your posting and I have been corrected on that. There again, you would probably be more clear if you post in a calm manner. And if you'd like to continue as a member here, I suggest you adopt a calmer tone.

Mitch

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Pastor Mitch,

Where in the Bible does sin get a degree with being "public"?

Do the ten commandments become "public"? If adultery is a public sin then so is "bearing false witness" and "coveting" and so on and so on?

[b]The following is from Webster:
BLA'MELESS, a. Without fault; innocent; guiltless; not meriting censure. [/b]Your wrote the following:
Blameless does not mean sinless. If it did, then there would be no preachers at all. The connotation of blameless means that no one can lay blame on a person. Therefore, a pastor should be a man that no human can find fault with. That doesn't mean perfection, but the pastor has not committed a "public" sin that would damage the reputation of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[b]If a man has nothing to that no one can lay blame on then that man is perfect.... RIGHT??
Your telling me that if a man was called to preach he can never be a pastor if any "public" sin can be posted on him ...right??[/b]

I'm not accusing anyone of sinning in their heart. The bible says we have all sinned and come short of the glory of God! I would be the first one to tell you and all who I have ever taught or talked to about my life ... yes I admit to those sins that I know men as humans fall into. I will not be in front of Christ at judgment blaming others for my downfall. I will be thanking the Lord for His Mercy on my life and I'm sorry I did not do more for Him!!
He is hope of doing right but I'm still a human and that is what is the biggest trip in my life.

My Quote:
All the men who preach who went to PBI are not qualified to preach because they were taught by a sinner and a man who was faulty.

you wrote:
I didn't say this. However, if the instructor is teaching error, and the men under him continue to spread that error, then they are faulty and should be removed from the pastorate, because they are no longer "blameless."

[b]Please call these pastors and let them know this is the stand of this forum and that they need to quit the ministry... ok especially Dr. Sam Gipp
here is the list:

James Modlish
Steve Stergeon
Doug Fisher
Rick DeMichele
Rick Sowell
Brad Frisen
Ken Blue
John Paisley
Tim Shanks
John Haveman
Chuck Schlink
Nick Serino
Ron Robinson [/b]

Later,
Bro. Bob Owen

PS Sorry that my speech is not the best. I did not graduate from school and according to many I'm just ignorant and unlearned ... that is what a pastor called me in Oregon.

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TO all:

A big Praise the Lord because of my stand on the book and my testimony online on the two bible sites that I'm on. A lady from the church I was saved in 1971 when I was nine found me and wanted to get ahold of Pastor Bill Melton's son Billy whom I have been friends with for over 36 years.
We live in a very small world...

Bro. Bob Owen

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[quote="BobOwen"]
Pastor Mitch,

Where in the Bible does sin get a degree with being "public"?

Do the ten commandments become "public"? If adultery is a public sin then so is "bearing false witness" and "coveting" and so on and so on?
[/quote]

The issue here is not about "public" sin. The issue is about qualifications for a certain position of serving in the church. Pastor is a position in the church. God said the "man of one wife". Laid it out pretty simple. The man may be forgiven. But that still doesn't change the qualifications for being a pastor. He doesn't meet the qualifications. This has nothing to do with forgiveness or sin. It has to do with qualifications set forth by God.

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[color=#a30000]God made the rules for a pastor.

It is like knowing that a President of the United States has to be at least 35 years old and an American citizen. Well a French 34 year old could say how right he is for the position and tell us all his education and experience but he won't get it because he is disqualified.

In God's eyes, a divorcee is disqualified and there are several more things in the qualification lists that Peter Ruckman doesn't fulfill too well either.[/color]

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[quote="Bakershalfdozen"]
[color=#a30000]God made the rules for a pastor.

It is like knowing that a President of the United States has to be at least 35 years old and an American citizen. Well a French 34 year old could say how right he is for the position and tell us all his education and experience but he won't get it because he is disqualified.

In God's eyes, a divorcee is disqualified and there are several more things in the qualification lists that Peter Ruckman doesn't fulfill too well either.[/color]
[/quote] :goodpost: :amen: :clap: :clap: :clap:

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im re opening this forum because i have something to say.

while iwas away some things have happened that has made me change my mind.

we believed 95% of what our church did.but because we didnt believe the other 5 % we were pretty much,pushed,or kicked out of our church(yes the one where PAstor Robinson is the pastor.)my dad was taken off the preaching list and fired,my mom and I were taken of both nursery and cleaning lists.people didnt want to speak to us...it was clear we were not wanted there.

We havent gone to church since.i begged my mom to let me go at least on easter...but i couldnt.the one that i wanted to go to teaches the pastor is in charge of everything not God.

my cousin Arik,(i spoke of him before) has been bashing my family ever since he went to PBI. he called my sisters husband(was fiance) a fool after Robert had approached him about harrassing my sister(my sister works for Dr Hovind and my cousin Arik hates him because he teaches 6 day creation)

maybe the Lord is having all these things happen because if i went to PBI i could change for the worst? i may never know.

I will NOT go to PBI,ill go to PCC for music than a medical college...and for bible training....my Bible will do all of that.i dont need man to teach me the word of God.after all,he is only man.

The holy Spirit can guide me in my study.And i put all my trust on him for what i will learn. if satan tries to tell me something different.i know how to treat this.I always have long talks with my dad and he knows his Bible very well. he told me according to the BIble you should say to the spirit "do you confess that Jesus is God in the flesh?" and if it says yes it is of God and if no or it tries to get around it,than dont speak to it or listen.

My dad has been offered the position of assistant pastor in Washington.so we will move there in June. after that i will go to college.

Amie Jo

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I wouldn't go to PBI because it's a ministry of Dr Ruckman's church and while I appreciate his awesome stand on the KJB, he isn't qualified to be a pastor, although he could preach, and he could teach in the school.

There is a Bible Institute in Idaho that is great! Teaches much the same things as PBI. I know of people that will be attending there soon. Good school. It's a ministry of Treasure Valley Baptist Church.

On the gap theory, Dr Ruckman and Dr Gipp don't teach that God created, then there was millions of years and then the other days of creation. They teach that there was a relatively short space of time between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. So they teach that God created the heaven and the earth, and then there was a race of people on the earth before Adam that sinned and were wiped out. Then creation and then Adam etc. My pastor believes it too and he actually has verses to back it up. I used to think it was crazy but my pastor can back it up so now I have to check into it and am leaning towards accepting it. I'm not sure if the pre-adamic race was humans though, I think it was angels, like it was when the angels fell.

Katy-Anne

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Two problems:

1. Everything God created was created within the 6 literal time period of Creation.

Exodus 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


God didn't say that they were to work on Day 1 and then have a time period and then work on Days 2-6, resting on the 7th.




2. Adam's sin brought death. There was no death before Adam.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Meaning, no Pre-Adamic race sinned and were destroyed.




Anything but a literal interpretation of Genesis 1 and 2 is an attempt to justify evolutionary thinking on some level. BTW, the earth being w/o form and void simply means unformed and unfilled. The foundations of the earth were there but think about it - even the dry land hadn't appeared yet (day 3). What do you suppose was there? It was just water and air (day 2).

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I'm not sure if the pre-adamic race was humans though, I think it was angels, like it was when the angels fell.


And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. (Genesis 1:31)
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And the word "replenish" means "fill."


Replenish
REPLEN'ISH, v.t. [L. re and plenus, full.]

1. To fill; to stock with numbers or abundance. The magazines are replenished with corn. The springs are replenished with water.

Multiply and replenish the earth. Gen 1.

2. To finish; to complete. [Not in use.]

REPLEN'ISH, v.i. To recover former fullness.


The verb is being used transitively in the Bible (i.e., the first definition).

The Hebrew says the same--to fill.
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Thanks Samer

I've heard both views and right now I don't know which one is right, because BOTH sides have Scripture to prove it. It's not something I'm overly worried about but if I see solid evidence one way or another that totally refutes the other side then I'll know what to believe. :smile If not it doesn't concern me and I can go my whole Christian life without knowing if I have to.

Katy-Anne

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Imagine trees trying to grow with a thousand year daytime and a thousand year nighttime. Whoa. And that's one long hibernation for the bears! And anyway when did evening and morning change to 24 hours instead of a thousand years anyhow?

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They teach that there was a 1. relatively short space of time between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. So they teach that God created the heaven and the earth, and 2. then there was a race of people on the earth before Adam 3. that sinned and 4. were wiped out. 5. Then creation and then Adam etc. My pastor believes it too and he actually has verses to back it up.



I would like to see the verses used to prove each point. Thanks.


But let's make it a new thread. :thumb
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im re opening this forum because i have something to say.

while iwas away some things have happened that has made me change my mind.

we believed 95% of what our church did.but because we didnt believe the other 5 % we were pretty much,pushed,or kicked out of our church(yes the one where PAstor Robinson is the pastor.)my dad was taken off the preaching list and fired,my mom and I were taken of both nursery and cleaning lists.people didnt want to speak to us...it was clear we were not wanted there.

We havent gone to church since.i begged my mom to let me go at least on easter...but i couldnt.the one that i wanted to go to teaches the pastor is in charge of everything not God.

my cousin Arik,(i spoke of him before) has been bashing my family ever since he went to PBI. he called my sisters husband(was fiance) a fool after Robert had approached him about harrassing my sister(my sister works for Dr Hovind and my cousin Arik hates him because he teaches 6 day creation)

maybe the Lord is having all these things happen because if i went to PBI i could change for the worst? i may never know.

I will NOT go to PBI,ill go to PCC for music than a medical college...and for bible training....my Bible will do all of that.i dont need man to teach me the word of God.after all,he is only man.

The holy Spirit can guide me in my study.And i put all my trust on him for what i will learn. if satan tries to tell me something different.i know how to treat this.I always have long talks with my dad and he knows his Bible very well. he told me according to the BIble you should say to the spirit "do you confess that Jesus is God in the flesh?" and if it says yes it is of God and if no or it tries to get around it,than dont speak to it or listen.

My dad has been offered the position of assistant pastor in Washington.so we will move there in June. after that i will go to college.

Amie Jo


*hugs* Sorry to hear about your church and family situation.
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My recommendation is to find somewhere else to go that teaches the truth. Here are some options: Crown' date=' Ambassador, New England Baptist College to name a couple.[/quote']

Hmmm....I know this is old, but I wanted to say that I personally would not recommend Crown (I did attend there and have now left), and the other two, while I have never attended there, I have heard were extremely strict and legalistic.

My two cents.
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