Jump to content
  • Welcome to Online Baptist

    Free to join.

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

pneu-engine

The Repentance Issue::: revisited

Recommended Posts

Thanks again for removing the non-repenter. I was preparing a post to tell him I reject his thoughts as heresy.


So, is repentance (180 degree turn) a turn in one's thinking/believing thus facilitating salvation which results in a change of works?

Or is it a turn in one's works as a prerequisite to being salvation?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Guest
So, is repentance (180 degree turn) a turn in one's thinking/believing thus facilitating salvation which results in a change of works?


Yes. It is a heart change as apposed to mere verbal agreement as easy believism teaches.

Or is it a turn in one's works as a prerequisite to being salvation?


No.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Requiring a sinner to stop sinning and "do the works of the Law" to be saved is Lordship Salvation; a false doctrine taught by David Cloud, Ray Comfort, Paul Washer, John McCarthur and many others. Many are just adding Jesus to their list of must-do works for salvation. This is the crowd whom Jesus spoke of who had done many wonderful works, yet HE NEVER KNEW THEM. These go away unsaved still in their sins.

Carrierwave~


Just to keep the record straight for those who may not know, the above quote is false.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Guest

Well, only partially, the part of his post you quote is describing a false doctrine, but David Cloud certainly doesn't teach that. "Turning from your sins" isn't a "work", it is a heart change. There are many who will say that they believe in God, Christ, etc. but their whole lives show that there was no heart change. They are completely comfortable living like the world. That shows there was no repentance. You don't have to change to get saved, but if you do get saved there will be some changes. If a person can go on living his life exactly the same with no changes, then that person never got saved in the first place.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

John MacArthur and Ray Comfort don't teach that either (don't know what Paul Washer teaches). Also, from what I have read, true "Lordship Salvation" doesn't teach that either. True Lordship salvation teaches that if a person is truly born again then that will be reflected by them not only claiming and acceping Christ as their Saviour, but also as their Lord; which is reflected by the fact they seek to obey His Words. There are many today who preach we must have Christ as Saviour but totally leave out the aspect that we must accept Him as our Lord as well. Christ is our Lord AND Saviour, not just our Saviour.

Yes, true repentance, being born again does indeed lead to a changed life. There are some who proclaim one can be saved and yet continue living just as they did before. I believe that's a very wicked teaching akin to the easy believism teaching which misleads people into believing they can say a simple "Jesus come into my heart" prayer and that's it, they are saved and can go on about their lives.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
John MacArthur and Ray Comfort don't teach that either (don't know what Paul Washer teaches). Also, from what I have read, true "Lordship Salvation" doesn't teach that either. True Lordship salvation teaches that if a person is truly born again then that will be reflected by them not only claiming and acceping Christ as their Saviour, but also as their Lord; which is reflected by the fact they seek to obey His Words. There are many today who preach we must have Christ as Saviour but totally leave out the aspect that we must accept Him as our Lord as well. Christ is our Lord AND Saviour, not just our Saviour.

Yes, true repentance, being born again does indeed lead to a changed life. There are some who proclaim one can be saved and yet continue living just as they did before. I believe that's a very wicked teaching akin to the easy believism teaching which misleads people into believing they can say a simple "Jesus come into my heart" prayer and that's it, they are saved and can go on about their lives.



:amen::goodpost:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dear Mr. Seth Doty

You can talk to me directly if you wish. I feel like an outsider everyone talking about my posts. If you disagree I think it would be ok to talk with ME about it.

What I am saying is not false. On the contrary, I have plenty of scripture to show you and back up what I have said, which I do not see much being used here to bring out with any authority what you say is the truth.

Remember, absolute SALVATION is only visible by the Spiritual Eye of God. Only God can see the heart. Since this truth must rule--unless you claim attributes such as *omniscience* for yourself, all visible actions can only be suppositions of nature. There are lots of scriptures that tell us to be careful not to judge as only God can. (James 2:4) in particular. To our God the Lord Jesus alone is reserved this authority to "KNOW" with absolute correctness.

Mat. 9:4
Mat. 15:19
Mar. 7:21

Since Christians still have a sin nature; that it does not go away when we are saved, sin is still a factor in our behavior at times--unless you profess sinless perfection of both body, soul, and even spirit.
Many passages show that saved people have been guilty of horrible and gross sin. Of course this is NOT RIGHT, and a serious blot when it occurs.

I will discuss this at length at a later time.

Carrier~

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Faith and Repentence
Luk 19:8 And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore [him] fourfold.

Salvation
Luk 19:9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would like to quote from a website that teaches Lordship Salvation.

"If Jesus Christ is not the Lord and Master of your life, He is NOT your Saviour."

The sad fact is this statement was not supported anywhere in the Bible, even though a feeble attempt was made by the author, overwhelming evidence from scripture about the Lord Jesus Christ proves this is false teaching.

Lordship Salvationists interpret the word Lord to mean MASTER i.e., "to surrender fully to Christ's will." On the contrary, the Biblical word for "Lord" is quite different, which is always the Greek word KURIOS, meaning "Supreme in Authority, the Almighty". Hence, Jesus Christ is THE LORD regardless if he is your Savior or not. Every sinner who comes to Jesus Christ for the free gift of Salvation is coming to THE LORD, (Almighty GOD).

The authors of the NIV in Romans 10:9 also mistranslate the word "KURIOS", that in order to be saved one must.. "confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord." Again, the same logic is used in an attempt to make salvation a matter of your works (making Jesus the Lord of your life) and not faith alone in Jesus Christ.

The Bible plainly teaches you don't make Jesus Lord, He is THE LORD. Lordship Salvationists falsely make a distinction here, and create an entirely new doctrine, which requires a person to make Christ the Master of his life in order to be saved?this is heresy.

The above quote comes from *Ray Comfort*. He clearly believes one must "turn from their sins" in order to be saved. He calls this biblical "repentance" in regard to salvation. He is wrong. Salvation is NOT OF WORKS, yet he falsely proclaims submitting to good works as are an essential prerequisite FOR salvation.

David Cloud is teaching this same falsehood but with an interesting twist by placing unnecessary burdens upon lost sinners, by requiring people to surrender to God before he is saved, in order to be saved! Note the following quote by Cloud:

"Repentance is to acknowledge one?s sin and rebellion against God and to change one?s mind about sinning against God."(emphasis added)

This definition of "repentance" by Cloud is completely misleading and found nowhere in the Greek term "METANOEO". The "change of mind" is NOT about sinning against God.

Rom 4:5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

Rom 5:6 "For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly"

It is clear God makes no deals about "not sinning". You must come to God confessing you are "without strength" and "ungodly". We have nothing to offer God but our sin. "Turning from sin" is not repentance. Repentance is just the opposite--It is a confession you are completely helpless sinner and must flee to Christ alone to save you.

Carrierwave~

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Faith and....
Luk 19:8 And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord,..........

Repentence
.....the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore [him] fourfold.

Salvation
Luk 19:9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.


It is clear Zacchaesus was saved BEFORE he ever made any proclamations of good works. (to be sure, he had done none of those good things as yet.) Zacchaeus showed his faith to others BY his works; not in order to get FAITH and SALVATION. Jesus' proclamation of salvation was not because of his good deeds, but because of Zacchaeus' FAITH. Jesus saw his FAITH and saved him--otherwise salvation MUST include good works.

"Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

I commend Zacchaeus for following up his salvation by proclaiming good works. (2 Cor. 5:17)

Carrierwave~

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Guest

DearJohn 81: You expained it perfectly! :amen: From everything I read in scripture this is repentance!! It's amazing to me that someone could be saved and take so much out of context like they are and bad mouthing some good preachers to boot. I don't know all those preachers but the ones I do- don't teach what this person says!! Just a sister in Christ--Pixiedust

John MacArthur and Ray Comfort don't teach that either (don't know what Paul Washer teaches). Also, from what I have read, true "Lordship Salvation" doesn't teach that either. True Lordship salvation teaches that if a person is truly born again then that will be reflected by them not only claiming and acceping Christ as their Saviour, but also as their Lord; which is reflected by the fact they seek to obey His Words. There are many today who preach we must have Christ as Saviour but totally leave out the aspect that we must accept Him as our Lord as well. Christ is our Lord AND Saviour, not just our Saviour.

Yes, true repentance, being born again does indeed lead to a changed life. There are some who proclaim one can be saved and yet continue living just as they did before. I believe that's a very wicked teaching akin to the easy believism teaching which misleads people into believing they can say a simple "Jesus come into my heart" prayer and that's it, they are saved and can go on about their lives.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Guest

Carrierwave,

You do not seem to understand what is meant by "repentance from sin". It is a heart condition not a work. For example, on the one hand when Peter denied the Lord he went out and "wept bitterly" afterward. He repented of his sin. He understood what he had done and his heart turned from that causing him to weep bitterly. His repentance did effect his actions later but actions are a product of repentance rather than being repentance itself. On the other hand we have Judas, he also understood that he had sinned and even verbally admitted it. He felt guilt and even said "I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood." However, he had no true change of heart about his sin, he wasn't willing to surrender to God, he simply felt bad that Jesus was condemned to die. His actions later showed that.

Lordship Salvationists interpret the word Lord to mean MASTER i.e., "to surrender fully to Christ's will." On the contrary, the Biblical word for "Lord" is quite different, which is always the Greek word KURIOS, meaning "Supreme in Authority, the Almighty". Hence, Jesus Christ is THE LORD regardless if he is your Savior or not. Every sinner who comes to Jesus Christ for the free gift of Salvation is coming to THE LORD, (Almighty GOD).


While it is true that Jesus is still THE LORD of all no matter if an individual cares to admit it or not, if you get saved your heart must also be willing for him to be your Master as well. As it is written:

"John 13:13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am."

And again it is written:

"Matthew 10:37-38 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me."

"Luke 14:26-27 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple."

"Luke 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple."

All those verse do indeed show that if a person never reaches a point where their heart is willing to turn from sin(and even things that are not sin) and place Christ first they "cannot be" Christs disciple. Not understanding this truth is the problem with easy believism teachers. It is indeed very easy for a person to get saved if the heart is right, many people have been truly saved under easy believism type ministries including myself, however, in the case of those whose hearts are not right, it simply gives them a false assurance of salvation and they are two fold more a child of hell so to speak.

It is clear God makes no deals about "not sinning". You must come to God confessing you are "without strength" and "ungodly". We have nothing to offer God but our sin.


We agree on this, I doubt anyone here would disagree with that.

Turning from sin" is not repentance. Repentance is just the opposite--It is a confession you are completely helpless sinner and must flee to Christ alone to save you.


That is exactly what we believe with the exception that we don't mean the same thing by "Turning from sin" as you apparently do. We don't mean a "work"(must stop sinning first etc.) we mean the very heart condition of which you speak. A heart ready to surrender to Christ and willing to put him first. NOT just a one two three repeat after me prayer that a person prays to "automatically" make them saved regardless of the condition of their heart.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


It is clear Zacchaesus was saved BEFORE he ever made any proclamations of good works. (to be sure, he had done none of those good things as yet.) Zacchaeus showed his faith to others BY his works; not in order to get FAITH and SALVATION. Jesus' proclamation of salvation was not because of his good deeds, but because of Zacchaeus' FAITH. Jesus saw his FAITH and saved him--otherwise salvation MUST include good works.

"Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

I commend Zacchaeus for following up his salvation by proclaiming good works. (2 Cor. 5:17)

Carrierwave~


Repentence is not a work
The reason Zachaeus took action and righted the wrongs he had done was because his HEART had already been changed.
Repentence and faith go hand in hand. Friend, in order for you to get "saved", you must be "saved" from something. Friend, the DEVIL believes there's a God, but his heart has not been changed...he aint' repenting.

Repentence is like admitting to God WHAT youare.....
Friend, you are, a wicked, ungodly, vile wretch with no hope and you sin because you can't help yourself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Faith and Repentence
Luk 19:8 And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore [him] fourfold.

Salvation
Luk 19:9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.


Heartstrings,

Zacchaeus I believe was saved back in verse 6.

Luke 19:5 "And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house."

Luke 19:6 "And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully".

Everything beyond this point was Zacchaeus' surrender AFTER he was saved. I believe Zacchaeus wanted to be more than saved, but also wanted to be a disciple. (This should be a desire of all Christians, yet the flesh continues to plague and hinder our surrender.) This why Paul in Romans 12:1-2 pleaded with *Christians* (people already SAVED) to surrender their bodies a living sacrifice; NOT TO BE SAVED, but that it is our "REASONABLE SERVICE". It is only reasonable to serve the ONE who saved us from hell ! Service does not SAVE. In gratitude to Christ for saving us and for future reward in Heaven we aught to serve Christ.

This is the difference--You cannot mistake the ROOT of SALVATION with the FRUIT of SALVATION. You cannot require discipleship as part of receiving SALVATION. The ROOT of SALVATION is FAITH alone in Christ's work. (Scores of scriptures validate this) Being a disciple does involve work and obedience--BUT NOT TO BE SAVED. These two aspects of redemption MUST be kept separate. When a blending of the two occurs you have contradictions in The Word of God. Romans 11:6 makes it clear *SALVATION* cannot be a blend of WORKS and GRACE. They are like oil and water--they will NOT mix. You cannot have it BOTH WAYS.

Carrierwave~

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Who's Online   1 Member, 0 Anonymous, 58 Guests (See full list)

Article Categories

About Us

Since 2001, Online Baptist has been an Independent Baptist website, and we exclusively use the King James Version of the Bible. We pride ourselves on a community that uplifts the Lord.

Contact Us

You can contact us using the following link. Contact Us or for questions regarding this website please contact @pastormatt or email James Foley at jfoley@sisqtel.net

Android App

Online Baptist has a custom App for all android users. You can download it from the Google Play store or click the following icon.

×
×
  • Create New...