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PastorMatt

Bring your guns to church

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I am still dumbfounded as to why someone would want or feel a need to bring a gun to church. I am especially dumbfounded by the comment that you carry a gun because it is Scriptural and because God wants you to. Really? Where in the Bible does it tell us that God wants us packing weapons? I don't see that anywhere. I'm not saying that it is wrong to carry a gun. I'm just saying Scripture is silent on the issue, and to say God wants you carrying a gun as a private citizen is beyond what I can comprehend. I just don't understand it.

And why a church would want people carrying concealed weapons in its place of worship is beyond what I can comprehend. My state legislature just passed a ludicrous law permitting people to take guns to church unless a sign is posted outside the church building prohibiting it. That is almost as ludicrous as saying let's let people take guns to schools. My church will certainly post a sign prohibiting weapons to prevent people from lawfully bringing weapons into our place of worship.

We most certainly will not allow it at business meetings...that's asking for someone to get killed.

I don't understand why it is necessary for a Christian to own a gun unless that person is a hunter or law enforcement officer, much less Scriptural or "the will of God." God has never spoken to me in that way telling me to go buy guns and carry it around.

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I am still dumbfounded as to why someone would want or feel a need to bring a gun to church. I am especially dumbfounded by the comment that you carry a gun because it is Scriptural and because God wants you to. Really? Where in the Bible does it tell us that God wants us packing weapons? I don't see that anywhere. I'm not saying that it is wrong to carry a gun. I'm just saying Scripture is silent on the issue, and to say God wants you carrying a gun as a private citizen is beyond what I can comprehend. I just don't understand it.

And why a church would want people carrying concealed weapons in its place of worship is beyond what I can comprehend. My state legislature just passed a ludicrous law permitting people to take guns to church unless a sign is posted outside the church building prohibiting it. That is almost as ludicrous as saying let's let people take guns to schools. My church will certainly post a sign prohibiting weapons to prevent people from lawfully bringing weapons into our place of worship.

We most certainly will not allow it at business meetings...that's asking for someone to get killed.

I don't understand why it is necessary for a Christian to own a gun unless that person is a hunter or law enforcement officer, much less Scriptural or "the will of God." God has never spoken to me in that way telling me to go buy guns and carry it around.


As you didn't quote in your post the person and even though this post follows mine, I don't think you are asking me about God's will for carrying as I never said that, I believe there were others you may have said that. If you are looking for a response from me, I wouldn't be able to address other's views, only my own.

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The bill of rights is actually in existence thanks to Baptists who had been persecuted for their faith here in America prior to the War for Independence.

All 10 of the amendments were favored by the American people. The second amendment was put in as a guarantee of protection against tyrants, because as Thomas Jefferson said:

"For a people who are free and who mean to remain so, a well-organized and armed militia is their best security. It is, therefore, incumbent on us at every meeting [of Congress] to revise the condition of the militia and to ask ourselves if it is prepared to repel a powerful enemy at every point of our territories exposed to invasion... Congress alone have power to produce a uniform state of preparation in this great organ of defense. The interests which they so deeply feel in their own and their country's security will present this as among the most important objects of their deliberation."

Ah ha! People would say here that the militia is the military, so private citizens shouldn't have guns...but! George Mason (of revolutionary fame, not my hubby's uncle :Green ) said that the militia was the PEOPLE.

And, to further clarify, Thomas Jefferson said:
"None but an armed nation can dispense with a standing army. To keep ours armed and disciplined is therefore at all times important."
See? He wasn't talking about the military.
"I think the truth must now be obvious that our people are too happy at home to enter into regular service, and that we cannot be defended but by making every citizen a soldier, as the Greeks and Romans who had no standing armies; and that in doing this all must be marshaled, classed by their ages, and every service ascribed to its competent class." National Guard.... :Green


What is my point you ask?

The second amendment doesn't grant us the right to keep and bear arms. It guarantees that right. Where does that right come from? Well, Thomas Jefferson said that rights come from God. Hmmm - a man who I don't really believe was a Christian (his "Bible" ended with Christ's tomb being sealed...) who believes that rights come from God....

Anyway - the wording is specific. "Keep" means to own. "Bear" means to carry. The bill of rights was placed into the constitution to be absolutely specific so there were no questions about the rights of American citizens. And the Baptists of the time were in favor of them. Why do I mention that? Simply because those folks knew what persecution was. Obadiah Holmes was beaten with 30 stripes for preaching the gospel and daring to not believe in infant baptism (which was considered punishable by death by the congregational church [puritans]). My ggrandfather was jailed for a time for the same thing. And it really didn't get better for them (anywhere but Rhode Island which John Clark (who was jailed along with Obadiah Holmes and my ggrandgfather) finally was able to get a charter from the king for). Someone might say - see there, they didn't carry guns...well, they weren't guaranteed the rights we are under our constitution. They were still under British authority (this was in the 1650's).

"Keep" and "Bear." Own and carry. Guaranteed under the constitution that was forged by men who were seeking freedom...and by people who coupled political freedom with religious freedom.

An interesting read on Baptists and the second amendment:
http://www.sightlerpublications.com/Bap ... dment.html

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People who are armed do not favor peacemakers? That's rich!!! Check out the stats' date=' Jerry. Towns and cities who "allow" armed citizens have LESS crimes. And Christians are citizens here, regardless of what you or anyone else wants to say. Christians have a right to carry guns. I think this church is silly with what its doing, but Christians can carry guns.[/quote']


:goodpost: I am FOR bringing guns to church for protection. Btw, kindofblue - you bring Jesus up quite often in your posts. Kind of like WWJD? We are NOT Jesus/God. Think about it.


http://www.baptiststandard.com/1999/9_2 ... unman.html

In Christ ~

Molly

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Jesus set the ONLY example we are to follow.
Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Its quite clear what Jesus said about the sword or gun, they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. That is in no way upholding you to carry a gun to church nor anywhere else.

And of all things, the lack of respect, people who claim they are Christians saying they would wear their gun concealed handgun into a church that has a sign that says no concealed weapons allowed. Yes, that is being real Christ like isn't it?

Its completely amazing at the lack of faith and trust we Christians have in God. By the way, if we say we have faith yet we don't prove our faith by the way we live and choices we make, all that does is prove our lack of faith.

Someone seems to think I said Christians did not have the right to carry a gun. I never said that. The Christians has lots of rights, they have the liberty to follow Christ or not follow Christ, they make choices each and every day, but each of these choices really decides if your really going to walk with God or not.

By the way, if you had no other choice but to follow Jesus, you could have no liberty, but yet liberty does not give you a license to sin.

Just for added thought, anyone in Arkansas who carry's a canceled handgun into a church is breaking the law, that surely would be a poor example of following Christ if anyone carried their concealed handgun to church in the state of Arkansas.

http://www.wwrn.org/article.php?idd=30364&sec=41&con=4

I'm not going to debate this topic, its useless, enough has already been said. If you want to live by the gun, go for it, its your choice.

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I am still dumbfounded as to why someone would want or feel a need to bring a gun to church. I am especially dumbfounded by the comment that you carry a gun because it is Scriptural and because God wants you to. Really? Where in the Bible does it tell us that God wants us packing weapons? I don't see that anywhere. I'm not saying that it is wrong to carry a gun. I'm just saying Scripture is silent on the issue, and to say God wants you carrying a gun as a private citizen is beyond what I can comprehend. I just don't understand it.

And why a church would want people carrying concealed weapons in its place of worship is beyond what I can comprehend. My state legislature just passed a ludicrous law permitting people to take guns to church unless a sign is posted outside the church building prohibiting it. That is almost as ludicrous as saying let's let people take guns to schools. My church will certainly post a sign prohibiting weapons to prevent people from lawfully bringing weapons into our place of worship.

We most certainly will not allow it at business meetings...that's asking for someone to get killed.

I don't understand why it is necessary for a Christian to own a gun unless that person is a hunter or law enforcement officer, much less Scriptural or "the will of God." God has never spoken to me in that way telling me to go buy guns and carry it around.


There was recently (within a year or so) a armed woman who killed a man who started shooting up a church. Crazies like religion and politics. Any large gathering of people (including church... ours has 2000 people each weekend) I attend I think its important to be prepared. God cares about the innocent, and to be unable to defend innocence is thwarting our responsibility IMO.

FWIW, I think its foolish to make schools "gun free zones." Why are so many mass shootings in schools??? How many mass gunmen bent to kill some people see that sign and say, "yea, I can't bring guns here. I better just go home." No, it's more like "Noone will be fighting back."

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Yes, its foolish to be unprepared, in fact there be few that are prepared, for many will enter in at the wide gat to destruction. few there be who will enter in the strait gate that leads to life.

"Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?"

Mark 4:40 (KJV)

"For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith."

Romans 1:17 (KJV)

"That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God."

1 Cor 2:5 (KJV)

1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Heb 11:1 (KJV)

"He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;"

Romans 4:20 (KJV)

"That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God."

1 Cor 2:5 (KJV)

"(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)"

2 Cor 5:7 (KJV)

How many of us stagger when it comes to faith, that is we just cannot gather up enough faith to truly trust God with our whole life all of the time, that is we have to help God to protect us, even while we set in Jesus Church worshiping Him.

As for the Lutheran Church, judge it against a New Testament Church described in the Bible and you will find that it does not resembles what a true New Testament Church that Jesus Christ is the head of. Remember, for a church to be one of Jesus' churches it has to aide by the rules He set up, hint, there be few true New Testament Churches and many false New Testaments Churches.

We prove faith by living by faith, Romans 1:17, saying we have faith, but yet we show no faith in God by the way we live proves a lack of faith. Its so easy to say I have faith but so hard to live that faith if its not present within us.

"And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it."

2 John 1:6 (KJV)

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous."

"For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith."

1 John 5:3-4 (KJV)

Yes, I know, you may think I'm foolish to live by faith alone and speak of so much faith, you may even think I'm foolish by saying all churches are not true churches, it was the same way in the days of the early church, the unbeliever thought it was so silly for the believers to live by faith, abide by all of Jesus' commandments, and spent time worshiping Him.

Its impossible to have that victory, to overcone the world, to live by godly wisdom, if one does not have the faith to walk in all the ways of Jesus.

"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."
Heb 11:6 (KJV)

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I think it's interesting that people keep bringing up the fact that Jesus told Peter to put away his sword, and that's reason enough not to have a gun (in church). Yet, Jesus is the one who told the disciples before this to get swords. Now, why would He say that if He didn't want them to have them?

And no-one here is advocating "living by the gun." Self-protection is not unscriptural.

There are a lot of things that are done differently in our country, under a republican (used to be) form of government than under the Roman empire of the NT period. I guess since Jesus and Paul lived under an emporer, we should want that, too.

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I've got to respond to this. Yes I bring up Jesus often. Why? His teaching and example are the standards we are to strive to live by. Failing to strive to live up to his example is a failure to be a follower of Christ. So I bring up Jesus often, and unashamedly so.

I believe he meant it literally when he taught the rich young ruler to give up his posessions, give to the poor and follow Jesus. The early chruch understood this, selling all that they had and giving for the betterment fo the church and to those in need. We need to strive to live up to that. I find this command the most difficult in our materialistic world, and it is hard to follow, but we must try to do so.

I beleive he meant it literally to turn to the other cheek when our enemies strike and to pray for our enemies and love them. Jesus, by his own example, did not defend himself when beaten and crucified. In fact, he rebuked Peter for trying to defend him with a sword. We are to follow that example. Is it hard? Absolutely because it is our natural desire to defend ourselves. But that is the standard we are to strive for.

I can go on and on, but my point is, failing to try to follow the teaching so Christ is failure to be a follower of Christ. Jesus said go, make disciples, baptize them, and teach them to obey ALL that I commanded you. I believe that literally as well.

The teachings of Chrsit go against culture saying to defend ourselves, to protect our rights, etc.

I'm just raising a point here. Is it following the teachings of Chist to bring guns to church, even if in the name of self defense?

On a different note, I still think it is absolutely foolish to allow guns in places of worship. A church should enact such security measures that it believes is necessary. However, an individuals should not take it upon themselves to carry a gun for the protection of the entire congregation. Church is a community, and security should be handled by the community, in the manner the community designates. If all acted as individuals, and several people pulled guns to protect people, that is a recipie for disaster.

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I think it's interesting that people keep bringing up the fact that Jesus told Peter to put away his sword, and that's reason enough not to have a gun (in church). Yet, Jesus is the one who told the disciples before this to get swords. Now, why would He say that if He didn't want them to have them?

And no-one here is advocating "living by the gun." Self-protection is not unscriptural.

There are a lot of things that are done differently in our country, under a republican (used to be) form of government than under the Roman empire of the NT period. I guess since Jesus and Paul lived under an emporer, we should want that, too.


I'm not saying self protection is unscriptural.

My main concern is safety. Lets say you have a church of 500 people. 8 people are carrying concealed guns "to protect" people. A gunman comes in and shoots the preacher. Five of the eight pull guns and start firing at the gunman. Confusion begins. People run, and people are hit by those "protecting" the congregation by their own accord. It is very dangerous.

I'm saying that a church as a community should take up safety measures. The community should designate what to do in such in event, and that plan needs to be followed for maximum safety. When you have individuals acting of their own accord for the safety of others, that may interfere with the safety plan in place and actually harm those he is trying to protect.

From a scriptural standpoint, I'm saying people need to take a hard look at whether to cling to their guns. Is that really necessary for protection? Is that how we love our enemies, by carrying a weapon that kills people? Is that consistent with the teachings of Christ? Is it necessary for your protection (for me it is not....but if I were a judge sentencing criminals every day, perhaps it would be because people getting out of jail would have it out for me). Are there better ways to provide for your protection that are not so dangerous to the lives of others? (Many children are killed by guns kept in the home).

When Jesus says turn to the other cheek, does he mean it? Or does he mean it except when protecting yourself from harm? That is a tough teaching, but hey, it is what he said, and did by his own example. So isn't that what we should do as well? Does it go against our nature? It sure does, but so do many other teaching of Christ. Our nature is sinful and selfish after all. These are hard questions, that warrant hard thought and debate to come to a conclusion, yet many seem to say that Jesus didn't mean turn to the other cheek because we are to surely protect ourselves. Maybe that is the case, but is that just making examples to the teachings of Christ?

I don't know the answer, but I do know the techings of Jesus causes a conflict within me, but isn't that the point? Jesus lived and taught a way to live higher than our own nature.

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I totally agree with you about Jesus' teachings, kind. I really do. And I understand your hesitancy about having guns at church. The difference between us, I think, is our view of gun owners. You are imagining a worse case scenario (that could happen, I admit), but I don't know how much actual experience you have with gun owners (you could have a good bit!). But as I stated before, the gun owners I know would not just take out their guns and start firing. Most gun owners are very responsible, and know how to use guns. They know that collateral damage is a very real, very scary possibility, and they look out for that. No-one who owns a gun responsibly wants to kill anyone - nor even really injure them. The purpose of owning a gun is for protection. That is the form of protection we have in these modern times (many are learning martial arts, which is good, but even that isn't protection against someone having a gun or even a knife).

The weapon of the average man in NT times was a sword. Yes, Jesus said to turn the other cheek...but He also told His disciple to get swords. We need to balance His teachings out. I do not for any moment believe that He was teaching us to be pacifistic. I think He was teaching us to be discerning. Basically, if someone is going to come after us for our faith, we are to turn the other cheek. But a gunman coming into church and shooting isn't doing it because of our faith. He is doing it because of power.

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Of course, we are to bring up Christ when making a point. And, "unashamedly so." I agree 100%. Christ is everything! He is the "air that we breathe." For the record - my church has other security measures in place. Sadly, my deacon's oldest son was murdured in a restaurant nearby our church several years ago. Therefore, we have many people who are sheepish about guns. And, for good reason! I do believe, though, that Jesus would NOT expect His children to be treated as "Door Mats." When Christ paid it all on the Cross of Calvary? That summed up EVERYTHING He did for us.

I don't believe that every individual should own a gun. In fact, many people aren't mentally qualified to have a gun in their hand. :eek I DO believe that Jesus makes it clear that we are to protect ourselves, though. He doesn't want aggressive or passive behavior from His kids. He wants us to be assertive. That would mean - we aren't supposed to roll over and let the enemy kill us without a fight. God instills that defense mechanism inside of every human being. I'll call it self-preservation. Jesus was the exception!

God forbid that something should happen (like the above) to one of our loved ones. Btw, there was NO news coverage on the article in many parts of the USA. Columbine took precedence over a lot of things that happened in the USA. Something like this happens in a church? For example, the shooting of the abortionist doctor? That incident (which is very tragic) hits the media as fast as I can sneeze - and something like this stays buried? Unless you know someone who was involved in this slaying? 7 people were killed (and many other wounded) by a madman who disagreed with what was being taught in that church? How is that justifiable?

A gun is a weapon like a person's hands. Don't forget we have people out there that can kill a person in self- defense with their bare hands. I know a few of them. Former Navy Seals and Marines - to be exact. A knife is another object to use in self-defense. If a person is licensed to carry? Obviously, that person can carry that weapon wherever they go. I sat in a Greek Orthodox wedding years ago - where several ATF agents were on active duty. Many one of them had a gun on them. Was I afraid? Quite the contrary. I felt protected.

When bringing a gun to church? It doesn't mean we are to sit in our pews with loaded weapons. Other measures can be taken to ensure the safety of the flock and a person's gun would be last restort. Btw, the first time I learned how to shoot a rifle? I was a Girl Scout.

In Christ Jesus ~

Molly

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So you are saying that you have given every possession away to the poor and are traveling the world spreading the Gospel? I applaud you and your adherence to what you believe. :clap:

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I think it's interesting that people keep bringing up the fact that Jesus told Peter to put away his sword, and that's reason enough not to have a gun (in church). Yet, Jesus is the one who told the disciples before this to get swords. Now, why would He say that if He didn't want them to have them?

And no-one here is advocating "living by the gun." Self-protection is not unscriptural.

There are a lot of things that are done differently in our country, under a republican (used to be) form of government than under the Roman empire of the NT period. I guess since Jesus and Paul lived under an emporer, we should want that, too.


Who said that, i sure didn't, so why say that, it has nothing to do with the topic.

By the way, Jesus not only told him to put away the sword, Jesus also said they who live by the sword die by the sword.

And I completely fail to understand why anyone would ask kindofbule why He keeps bring up Jesus.

Your advocating taking guns to church, of all places our faith ought to be greater when we are gathered together as a church than at any other time.



By the way, if anyone had the right to live by the sword it was those of the early church for they were persecuted much more than you or I.

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My main concern is safety...Are there better ways to provide for your protection that are not so dangerous to the lives of others? (Many children are killed by guns kept in the home).

If your main concern is health and safety, then are you saying it is just too dangerous for people to carry their own guns per se? If so, wouldn't you say the same about carrying guns anywhere--say, a shopping centre or a football match?

Personally, if I was a Pastor who was concerned about health and safety, I would put a sign up banning motor cars before I put a sign up banning guns. They're much more dangerous; I wonder how many people are killed each year by car journeys back and forth to church.

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New Testament Christians faced attacks from merchants, criminals, various persons and sometimes the government. What is the example of how they dealt with this, which the Holy Ghost placed in Scripture as our example? Did they gather weapons to take to church? Did they pray to the Lord for protection and guidance? What example did the Holy Ghost give for us to live by?

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If your main concern is health and safety, then are you saying it is just too dangerous for people to carry their own guns per se? If so, wouldn't you say the same about carrying guns anywhere--say, a shopping centre or a football match?

Personally, if I was a Pastor who was concerned about health and safety, I would put a sign up banning motor cars before I put a sign up banning guns. They're much more dangerous; I wonder how many people are killed each year by car journeys back and forth to church.


Yes, I have the same concerns about people taking guns into any public place. If I owned a shopping mall, I'd ban all weapons at the mall. If I ran a football stadium, I would do the same thing. There is not point in people bringing guns to such events. None. Unless they are hired security by the property owner.

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New Testament Christians faced attacks from merchants' date=' criminals, various persons and sometimes the government. What is the example of how they dealt with this, which the Holy Ghost placed in Scripture as our example? Did they gather weapons to take to church? Did they pray to the Lord for protection and guidance? What example did the Holy Ghost give for us to live by?[/quote']

Come on John, furnish some answers. :smile

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The book of Acts and the epistles are rather short. They should be familiar to most here, and easily read by those who don't know what they say. They are more than worth reading.

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Yes, I have the same concerns about people taking guns into any public place. If I owned a shopping mall, I'd ban all weapons at the mall. If I ran a football stadium, I would do the same thing. There is not point in people bringing guns to such events. None. Unless they are hired security by the property owner.

You realize that you will only succeed in banning law abiding folks from carrying guns right? You will never stop criminals and crazies from bringing guns on your property.

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You realize that you will only succeed in banning law abiding folks from carrying guns right? You will never stop criminals and crazies from bringing guns on your property.



Yes I know that. You cannot stop a crazy person from coming in and shooting people. However, security and police are the proper ones to handle the situation. I would not be comfortable in entrusting security and safety in my place of business to civilians who take it upon themselves to carry a gun around for such purposes. That opens me up to liability if they kill someone. If security or police kill a bystander, then insurance protects for that.

We do not live in the "wild west." Allowing people to bring their guns into public places is terrible policy. You , as the propert owner have no idea if they are trained to use the weapons, are a skilled shot, etc. You have no idea their background and experience. On the other hand, when you hire your security, you can perform background checks, require a certain level of training, and know that you have done all you can to protect people in your place of business or recreation or where every you own open to the public.

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Ok, I'll read them both, but may still not venture an opinion of my own. But I would read the spiritually discerned opinions of others if they were given. :smile Lots of people asking questions on this thread and only a few answering.

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Yes, I have the same concerns about people taking guns into any public place. If I owned a shopping mall, I'd ban all weapons at the mall. If I ran a football stadium, I would do the same thing. There is not point in people bringing guns to such events. None. Unless they are hired security by the property owner.


I'm curious as to why you are also not calling for the removal of laundry bleach, sharp knives, garbage disposals, family cars, pets and other things that are statistically MUCH more dangerous than a gun; especially when most of the guns are locked up in some manner and these other dangerous items are not?

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There will be no need to form an "opinion" because Scripture is very clear. Nowhere do the NT Christians gather weapons to take to church. Nowhere do they fight against those who are persecuting them, whether it be merchants, government, citizens or whoever. They either accepted what came to them with joy or they fled to safer areas.

Some have posted examples of this in this or one of the other recent threads but they seem to have been ignored.

Christians are told clearly they are to be very different than non-Christians. Part of that difference is not fighting back against enemies. Part of that difference is esteeming ALL others as better than yourself. Part of that difference is being more concerned about ALL others salvation than your own life. Part of that difference is accepting that this life is for God's glory, not for our own pleasure, or for us to see how long we can live, or to do our own thing or anything other than living for God and serving His purpose. Part of that difference is accepting that God doesn't intend for all of us to live in peace, or to live a long life, or to die in our sleep, or to have our loved ones with us for any certain amount of time.

No matter what happens to a Christian in this life it amounts to the briefest blip of time in comparison to eternity. How horrible to be beaten or raped to death but how glorious to suddenly be with the Lord!

Our ways are not God's ways and we can't understand the beginning from the end as He does. Sometimes it serves the Lord's purposes for us to suffer well or even die well. By "well" I mean biblically, as the New Testament commands us.

The New Testament Chrisitans trusted the Lord for their protection and provision. They knew if they were attacked that nothing could happen to them unless the Lord allowed it...and if the Lord allowed it there was good reason for it. When we trust in God and obey Him, we know we can trust that God will work ALL THINGS together for good.

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