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PastorMatt

Bring your guns to church

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Some of them were but many also protected themselves. As I mentioned before the Pilgrims went to church with a bible in one hand and a gun in the other.


The Pilgrims were only a few hundred years ago, by early church I'm referring to the church recorded in the New Testament as our example.

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Yes, I understand your thoughts. Many times Christ taught to turn the other cheek, pray for those who despitefully use you, and be meek and humble. Nehemiah was building the city of God which is the primary purpose of a pastor preaching the gospel.

Christ never discouraged the Apostles from carrying their weapons. He made Peter put away his sword but, Christ was about to fulfill His earthly ministry. A good study question might be why were the Apostles carrying their weapons? Was it to protect the shepherd, the shepherd's flock or, maybe both? Maybe they carried swords just to hunt rabbits :wink ?

If the pastor is concerned and organizes a security team to protect the services of our church I would not hesitate to volunteer. I don't like the possibility of some lunatic or terrorist threatening my church family or my own family but, we live within a perverse nation.


We have examples in the New Testament of Christians facing various forms of persecution, which included having their homes violated as well as their persons. The question we are to always as is what does the Word of God say? How did Christians in the New Testament deal with such matters? What did 1st century Christians do? What is the Bible example given to NT Christians?

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John,
One difference is that they were being persecuted by the government which has authority from God. That is different than an individual that is acting without authority and outside the law. If the government came to our churches and started arresting people I would not advocate a shootout, but that is a great deal different than stopping a crazy person threating or injuring people and committing a crime by the law of the land.


In response to Jerry, Mat 26:52 is speaking of trusting in "the sword" for deliverance as it would seem peter was. Scripture is clear that our trust should be in God not weapons as even the OT states. That does not preclude their use however. Peter was acting hastily and outside of Gods will. Jesus told him that if he had need "help" he could have called more than twelve legions of angels but scripture needed to be fulfilled in this case. In [bible]Luke 22:36[/bible] just before the passage you quote in Mat 26:52 Jesus says to his disciples if they didn't have a sword they should now sell their garment and buy one. I believe this is teaching that we should try to be prepared. A sword has no peaceful purpose, the only reason to have one is for attack or defense. From your point of view why did Jesus tell his disciples to sell their garment and buy a sword if it would never have a legitimate use?

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John,
One difference is that they were being persecuted by the government which has authority from God. That is different than an individual that is acting without authority and outside the law. If the government came to our churches and started arresting people I would not advocate a shootout, but that is a great deal different than stopping a crazy person threating or injuring people and committing a crime by the law of the land.


In response to Jerry, Mat 26:52 is speaking of trusting in "the sword" for deliverance as it would seem peter was. Scripture is clear that our trust should be in God not weapons as even the OT states. That does not preclude their use however. Peter was acting hastily and outside of Gods will. Jesus told him that if he had need "help" he could have called more than twelve legions of angels but scripture needed to be fulfilled in this case. In [bible]Luke 22:36[/bible] just before the passage you quote in Mat 26:52 Jesus says to his disciples if they didn't have a sword they should now sell their garment and buy one. I believe this is teaching that we should try to be prepared. A sword has no peaceful purpose, the only reason to have one is for attack or defense. From your point of view why did Jesus tell his disciples to sell their garment and buy a sword if it would never have a legitimate use?


Right, trust in God, Peter should have trusted in God and not have pulled the sword out and its quite clear, you live by the sword, you died by the sword, so why live by it?

Let me see, I will pray for God's protection for my trip to church and our church service, but just in case He might fail me I will take my shooting irons with me. Yes, that is really trusting God isn't it?

No. I would not have nothing to do with a church that is full of gun toting people, they just do not sound like meek, peaceful, and harmless people.

I feel quite sure if I went by worldly logic I would not disagree on having the church full of guns.

Lets see, if someone kills me all they will do is send me to heaven to be with my Father & Savior, that sounds like gain to me, actually its a win win situation for me, that is if I believe that I'm truly saved by Jesus Christ. But I will not rush out and kill myself, I'll leave it up to God, I know He will take care of me, if I trust Him, but he does ask for me to completely trust Him.

One more thing, I could not feel this way if I did not truly believe Jesus Christ to be my Savior and quite able to keep that which I trusted Him with.

And what better place to lose ones life than while one is in one of Jesus' Churches worshiping.

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Right, trust in God, Peter should have trusted in God and not have pulled the sword out and its quite clear, you live by the sword, you died by the sword, so why live by it?

Let me see, I will pray for God's protection for my trip to church and our church service, but just in case He might fail me I will take my shooting irons with me. Yes, that is really trusting God isn't it?

No. I would not have nothing to do with a church that is full of gun toting people, they just do not sound like meek, peaceful, and harmless people.

I feel quite sure if I went by worldly logic I would not disagree on having the church full of guns.

Lets see, if someone kills me all they will do is send me to heaven to be with my Father & Savior, that sounds like gain to me, actually its a win win situation for me, that is if I believe that I'm truly saved by Jesus Christ. But I will not rush out and kill myself, I'll leave it up to God, I know He will take care of me, if I trust Him, but he does ask for me to completely trust Him.

One more thing, I could not feel this way if I did not truly believe Jesus Christ to be my Savior and quite able to keep that which I trusted Him with.

And what better place to lose ones life than while one is in one of Jesus' Churches worshiping.

:goodpost::amen:
blossom

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Again, if asked to be a member of a security team while performing parking lot duty I will prepare for that duty my pastor has entrusted to me.

Ok, those who take their guns to church...take them...those who don't...don't take them.

The Lord can tell us what he meant when we see him.

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I'm really surprised that some in here apparently think it a spirtiual thing that if someone comes into your church or home blasting away you shouldn't do anything about it but die.

Luke 22:35-38

"35": And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.

"36": Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

"37": For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

"38": And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

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I'm really surprised that some in here apparently think it a spirtiual thing that if someone comes into your church or home blasting away you shouldn't do anything about it but die.

Luke 22:35-38

"35": And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.

"36": Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

"37": For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

"38": And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.


If they do, them perhaps I will graduate to heaven, there sure be a lot worse things that could happen to a person.

By the way, we are taking about church, our home was not included in my post. Big difference between home and church, or at least it is with us.

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Right, trust in God, Peter should have trusted in God and not have pulled the sword out and its quite clear, you live by the sword, you died by the sword, so why live by it?

Let me see, I will pray for God's protection for my trip to church and our church service, but just in case He might fail me I will take my shooting irons with me. Yes, that is really trusting God isn't it?


Not taking precautions when you are able to do so could be considered tempting the Lord. I ask for protection when I drive my car too, does that mean I am not trusting God if I wear a seatbelt and avoid driving on bald tires?




No. I would not have nothing to do with a church that is full of gun toting people, they just do not sound like meek, peaceful, and harmless people



For one thing I imagine you have have been in more than one church with "gun toting people" without having any knowledge of it, it is very common, and for another thing you rarely come across as a meek, peaceful, and harmless person yourself. Dare I say you usually sound quite the opposite in most of your posts. If you are such a strong supporter of meekness at all times to the point that you would not only do nothing yourself to stop someone intent on harming loved ones and church members illegally but also condemn those that would and claim they are ungodly for doing so, then perhaps it would be wise to pray about your manner of posting. As it is I find it a little humorous and a little sad that one of the people who seems to have some of the most consistently unmeek posts on a wide range of topics should be speaking to others of how important it is to be meek even unto death at all times. I could respect your position a little more if you were meek yourself in your manner of speech. No offense brother, maybe this is a blind spot with you, we all have them with myself being no exception, but you may want to consider this as I think it hurts your witness and credibility a good deal. :2cents

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Not taking precautions when you are able to do so could be considered tempting the Lord. I ask for protection when I drive my car too, does that mean I am not trusting God if I wear a seatbelt and avoid driving on bald tires?







For one thing I imagine you have have been in more than one church with "gun toting people" without having any knowledge of it, it is very common, and for another thing you rarely come across as a meek, peaceful, and harmless person yourself. Dare I say you usually sound quite the opposite in most of your posts. If you are such a strong supporter of meekness at all times to the point that you would not only do nothing yourself to stop someone intent on harming loved ones and church members illegally but also condemn those that would and claim they are ungodly for doing so, then perhaps it would be wise to pray about your manner of posting. As it is I find it a little humorous and a little sad that one of the people who seems to have some of the most consistently unmeek posts on a wide range of topics should be speaking to others of how important it is to be meek even unto death at all times. I could respect your position a little more if you were meek yourself in your manner of speech. No offense brother, maybe this is a blind spot with you, we all have them with myself being no exception, but you may want to consider this as I think it hurts your witness and credibility a good deal. :2cents


So trusting in God is now tempting him? Sorry, but your 100% wrong. I'm doing no more than:

Dan 3:16 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter.

Dan 3:17 If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.


Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego did, they said "our God who we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us to God."

Your ought not condemn those who trust in the Lord thy God.

In fact we have numerous examples in the Bible of people trusting God to deliver them, and as I said, it I'm killed in such a situation God will still take care of me.

Why is it so hard for you to trust God 100% them condemn those who do even to the point you say they have no credibility?

At present time its against the law to carry a concealed hand gun into a church service in the state of Arkansas, there was talk of changing this recently, but I don't know if they have yet done so, so if I've been in a church service where someone was carrying a concealed weapon they were breaking the law of our government and thus sinning against God by disobeying those in authority over them.

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John,
One difference is that they were being persecuted by the government which has authority from God. That is different than an individual that is acting without authority and outside the law. If the government came to our churches and started arresting people I would not advocate a shootout, but that is a great deal different than stopping a crazy person threating or injuring people and committing a crime by the law of the land.


In response to Jerry, Mat 26:52 is speaking of trusting in "the sword" for deliverance as it would seem peter was. Scripture is clear that our trust should be in God not weapons as even the OT states. That does not preclude their use however. Peter was acting hastily and outside of Gods will. Jesus told him that if he had need "help" he could have called more than twelve legions of angels but scripture needed to be fulfilled in this case. In [bible]Luke 22:36[/bible] just before the passage you quote in Mat 26:52 Jesus says to his disciples if they didn't have a sword they should now sell their garment and buy one. I believe this is teaching that we should try to be prepared. A sword has no peaceful purpose, the only reason to have one is for attack or defense. From your point of view why did Jesus tell his disciples to sell their garment and buy a sword if it would never have a legitimate use?


The government was not the only source of persecution and sometimes not the source at all. Scripture gives several examples of Jews, merchants and others targetting Christians. What does Scripture say the response of the Christians was?

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No. I would not have nothing to do with a church that is full of gun toting people, they just do not sound like meek, peaceful, and harmless people.

FWIW, you may be surprised to know how many people carry guns. From my experience, meek, peaceful and harmless is a perfect description of most folks who carry a weapon. Because they are so meek, peaceful and harmless they never let you know they have their gun, content to be quietly prepared, but begging God that they would never have to use it.

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Guns have no place in a place of worship' date=' unless carried by a trained law enforcement officer. This is terrible, and I believe goes against the direct teachings of Jesus to be peacemakers.[/quote']

Trust me, we peaceable licensed gun carrying people are everywhere. "But why do you feel a need to carry a gun," you ask? "Because it is my right under the constitution of the United States, and I am exercising my right and there is no other reason needed," I answer.

Have a good day..... :wave:

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I am not a gun carrying person yet, but I see no problem with people that do. In fact some of the most peaceable people I have ever met in my life were gun carrying people. I never knew they were carrying until they told me. I was shocked at some of them when they told me, they were so sweet, kind, and non confrontational, that I could not believe they carried.

It is an American right under the constitution and it should stay that way.

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I think this is sad, quite honestly...a three-ring circus in the place set aside for worship of God--not political demonstrations, raffles, patriotic music, and lessons on gun safety. The job of the church is not to make political statements, but to bring people to Christ and edify the saints. I would have no problem with the above event if it were not church-sponsored or held on church grounds. I see nothing wrong with Christians as individuals participating in such an event; it sounds like fun, and it does emphasize an important truth. It just sends the wrong message to a world who is already confused about what churches are supposed to be doing. It is confusing at best, and inappropriate at worst.


Good post, Annie. This is exactly right.

As far as the questions about the early church...it has been pointed out that Jesus told His disciples to buy swords. Then, later, He said those who live by them die by them. Was that a contradiction? No, of course not. But I do think it fits in here - they were to have their swords, but use wisdom and discernment with them.

We know that there many martyrs, and we know that there continue to be, and will be soon here in America. But at this current time, we are still guaranteed in our Constitution the right to bear arms. Take that right away, and we lose the teeth to enforce the other rights...like the right to practice our religious beliefs.

Yes, we are to trust in God. No Christian gun owner I know (and I know many, many) would ever say otherwise. But, just as much as the walls of our homes are there to shelter us at night, and keep out the animals and criminals, so too are guns available for men to protect their families. And if they want to take them to church, I really don't see a problem with that. If people interrupt services with guns, someone with an "equalizer" can do a lot or protecting. Yes, if a Christian is killed, that person will go to Heaven. But if they aren't killed, they can continue working for Christ here on the earth.

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Would Jesus carry a gun if he lived today? I do not believe so. Even if it his "right" under the Constitution. A a citizen of the US, we may have that right, but is it right to from a Christian viewpoint, to carry a gun, especially in a place of worship? What do we value more? The right to carry a gun, or a the teachings of Christ?

What if a church posts a sign prohibiting a gun inside? I think all churches should do this, but that is my opinion. There is NO reason for a person to bring a gun to church unless a licensed, security person who is highly trained and is asked by the church to provide security.

Jesus taught that peacemakers are blessed. He told us if our enemy strikes us, to turn to the other cheek. Toting a gun is far apart from the spirit of that teaching.

I'm not saying people should never have a gun. THere are good uses such as hunting, etc. where it is fine. But to bring it to chruch and brag about it goes against the teachings of Jesus.

Consider this, bad guy goes into a church waving a gun. Do you want the person directly across the aisle from you shooting at the bad guy to stop him when you are in the line of fire? This is asking for trouble. Only highly skilled trained people who are VERY accurate in shot has business carrying a gun into a crowded building.

SHould Christians really have an attitude of "I will do what I want because it is my right!" Is that waht we are called to be? I think not.

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kind - your scenario of someone being in the line of fire is quite possible. But one thing many people don't realize - most people who actually take the time to get a concealed carry permit are good shots! Unless someone is a criminal or an idiot (and, granted, there are many of those!), gun owners are by and large a very responsible group of people.

As far as Jesus having a gun...well, really, as God, He wouldn't need one, would He? :Green He could just speak and it would knock people over (like in the Garden of Gethsamene at His arrest). Sorry, that was tongue-in-cheek = I don't think He'd speak to knock 'em over, but truly - as God He wouldn't need a gun.

But! He did tell His disciples to get swords. So, perhaps today He would tell us to get guns? Who really knows.

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There are lots of things that "Jesus would do" or "Jesus wouldn't do" that have nothing to do with what he has asked me to do or not to do. Jesus might heal the sick, he's never given me the calling or power to do that. While Jesus came to give his life as a lamb to the slaughter the first appearance here on this old sinful earth there is a coming a day that he will come again with much more than a gun in his hand and the blood will run up to the horse's bridle after the great battle.

Also, Luanne is right.....I am an excellent shot and go to the range on a regular basis in order to make certain I stay that way. And, I'm not foolish enough to carry around an empty weapon (when transporting one, yes). When I'm carrying it is loaded and in dual safe mode.

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I recognize that many people who carry guns are good shots. However, I know first hand that in my state it is very easy to get a concealed weapons permit, and people can get them and be crazy lunatics. I simply do not want a civilian carrying a gun into a crowded place, and thinking they can save the day and try to stop a criminal in a crowded situation and kill an innocent bystander. Even a good shot can get nervous, or confused in a crowded situation. Being a good shot on the range or in the deer woods does not mean one is going to be a good shot in a split second situation where a crowd is around with a moving target. This is very dangerous. It is dangerous enough with a trained, highly specialized law enforcement officer doing this.

But, my larger point, is that we need ot think about our image as Christians. Do we really want to be known as people who carry around guns into our place of worship just "because it is our Constitutional right?" I don't. I want to be known as a follower of Jesus' teachings. And the Jesus that I know wants us to be peacemakers. He wants us to turn to the other cheek when struck by our enemies. He wants us to lover our enemies. He wants us to pray for those who curse us. Openning our sanctuaries up to guns does not promote that image. It promotes an image of violence, of selfishness, of doing things we can do just because it is our right, etc.

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Would Jesus carry a gun if he lived today? I do not believe so. Even if it his "right" under the Constitution. A a citizen of the US, we may have that right, but is it right to from a Christian viewpoint, to carry a gun, especially in a place of worship? What do we value more? The right to carry a gun, or a the teachings of Christ?


At least two of his disciples were carrying swords when they were with Jesus in the garden of Gethsamene. If Jesus had a problem with his disciples carrying swords I imagine he would have let them know before then. I don't claim to be Jesus, just a disciple.

What if a church posts a sign prohibiting a gun inside? I think all churches should do this, but that is my opinion.


If they had a sign posted to that effect I would respect that but I probably wouldn't attend either. That very fact that they were worried enough about it to post a sign would tell me that we probably would have significant doctrinal differences in more areas than just that one.

But to bring it to chruch and brag about it goes against the teachings of Jesus.


No one was bragging that I saw. I have carried to church(it is legal where I am) for years and only a few people at church know, mostly others that also carry. No reason for most members to ever know either unless someday it is needed.

SHould Christians really have an attitude of "I will do what I want because it is my right!" Is that waht we are called to be? I think not.


I carry because it is legal and because scripturally and for me I think it is within the will of God.

I simply do not want a civilian carrying a gun into a crowded place, and thinking they can save the day and try to stop a criminal in a crowded situation and kill an innocent bystander.


You do know that police officers are just as likely to hit an innocent bystander by the numbers right? Per shooting police actually hit innocent people more often than licensed carriers I believe although that could be attributed to the differences in the types of shootings each group is likely to face. The average police officer is not highly skilled with his gun unless he happens to be one of those that also shoots as a hobby. Police are somewhat skilled in defusing dangerous situations verbally or physically without using a gun, but if it actually comes to down to shooting skill the average police officer will generally be far behind a civilian that enjoys and practices shooting. It is a myth that police are experts with guns, the average officer does not practice much. Sure a few are experts, but they are no more common than shooting experts in the general population. There have been a number of occasions were someone with a concealed weapon has "saved the day" in a crowded place, and I can't think of any cases where they shot an innocent person by accident and made a bad situation worse. Could it happen? There is a small possibility it could, even soldiers get killed by "friendly fire" every once in a great while, but the odds are that someone shooting at the bad guy will be a benefit rather than a detriment. Many cases show this to be a fact.

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I totally agree, it is poor form to carry and brag. I never say when I'm carrying out of respect for the "nerves" of others.

Also, if there were a sign posted asking not to bring a gun into the church, I would certainly be sensitive to their request.

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I totally agree, it is poor form to carry and brag. I never say when I'm carrying out of respect for the "nerves" of others.

Also, if there were a sign posted asking not to bring a gun into the church, I would certainly be sensitive to their request.


I would certainly hope you would leave your gun in your car if a sign was posted, as private property owners have right to ban guns from their property.

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I would certainly hope you would leave your gun in your car if a sign was posted, as private property owners have right to ban guns from their property.


Sorry Charlie, I don't make it a habit of leaving any weapons in my car if I can help it and especially a hand gun. I would be more legally liable and culpable if I left my handgun in the car, out of my control and someone got a hold of it, etc........I'd either carry it and keep it under my control or I'd leave it in my home vault locked and secured. That is just my own practice, probably not a requirement under the law itself (states are all different).

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