Bring your guns to church

[Guest Guest]

Isn't the main point about whether Christians need to bring guns to church or should? It seems we've got far away from that.

I've taken the Gospel into the heart of Chicago gangland. I've walked in places where the police won't go without backup. Never once did I carry a gun (or any other weapon for that matter). I've dealt with Black Gangster Disciples, Vice Lords, Spanish Lords, Latin Kings, etc. I've been threatened, confronted and seen several weapons displayed to intimidate me. I'm no "super Christian", I'm no Elijah seeing the army of the Lord about me, yet trusting in the Lord I went into these places and dealt with those who were known for robbing, beating and killing those who violated their territory, especially whites.

My story is a minor thing, many other Christians have went into far more dangerous places and have faced as deadly and deadlier lost folks. They carried no weapons, they relied upon the Lord for their protection.

Should we not be able to have the same faith and trust in the Lord for protection in church as we can when we face the violent street gangs or savage natives in the outland?

Brother John, that was a very good post.
God bless,
Crushmaster.

[Alimantado]

But look at the number of people that own cars compared to guns. If as many people owned guns as owned cars' date=' I guarantee you gun deaths would be much higher than car deaths. You've got to take into account that while most families own a car or more than one car, and use the cars every day, there are probably more families than not that do not own guns in their house....The two cannot be compared. Why? Nearly every family owns and uses a car ever day. Not everyone owns and uses guns. [i']If you look per capita, I'm certain gun deaths are a much higher percentage.

Have done. And found that to get the same accidental death rate per capita with guns as you have with cars, you'd need dozens of guns per person. I've got quite the opposite view to you: I think that accidental shootings would be very unlikely even if lots of people carried weapons and furthermore I think your assertion that guns can "...kill or seriously injur dozens within a matter of seconds," is wrong when we're talking about accidental shootings, which is what you were originally talking about when you were bringing up health and safety in public places and building a hypothetical scenario about a shoot-out in a church. Trouble is, you've now moved the goalposts to talking about deliberate shootings (your school example) so it's difficult to figure out what point you're actually trying to make. Is it that you think guns cause lots of accidental deaths when carried by people in public places? Or is it that you think guns are just bad because they are designed to kill people? Or is it that you think gun ownership causes people to shoot each other on purpose?

If we're talking about accidental deaths, then I stand by my point that cars are more dangerous than guns, even when adjusting for ownership. And I think your ideas about people carrying guns in public places causing much 'friendly fire' are without foundation, though happy to be proved wrong on that with examples.

[JerryNumbers]

Brother John, that was a very good post.
God bless,
Crushmaster.

Yes it was, but few get it. They just can't muster up the faith. Yet they can make jokes about our faith and joke around about guns with a serious Bible topic.

[John81]

Were these Christians taking guns to church? My only point in what I quoted was to point out how the Lord can protect us in any situation. In the case of Nehemiah we are dealing with Israel reestablishing itself and neighboring nations seeking to prevent this. This is very different from Christians attending church.

Scripture makes it clear Christians are called to a different manner of living than were those in the Old Testament. The early church (which means the actual early church in the 1st century, not American Christians a few hundred years ago) faced angry mobs and worse and yet they gathered in the protection of the Lord trusting in His protection and rejoicing when He allowed the attacks to touch them.

[dwayner79]

Yes it was, but few get it. They just can't muster up the faith. Yet they can make jokes about our faith and joke around about guns with a serious Bible topic.

Jerry#, I realize you are unable to see the other side on this (well most) issue(s). So this is not as much for you as it is for others.

Carry a weapon is not at all a matter of 'lack of faith.' Just like going to the doctor, or wearing a seatbelt, or locking your doors at night aren't matters of lacking faith either. There is a wisdom to doing all of those things appropriately.

For me to go to church means a 45 minute drive, a church service, dinner out with friends, and then another 45 minute drive. So our 1.5 hours of church are wrapped in 3 hours of other activity. If I don't carry to church, then I am ill-prepared for the rest of the time.

Also, as Deputy said, I think you are envisioning a worst case, wild-west, trigger-happy mentality to Concealed carry. That is the farthest thing from the truth. Instead, the idea is that the same rules apply in my home as they do anywhere else. I have a responsibility to do what I can to help my family be safe. So if you think it is ok to stop a person from hurting your family in your home, there is no difference because you are in a diner, or in the church building, or in a mall.

[no name joe]

Have done. And found that to get the same accidental death rate per capita with guns as you have with cars, you'd need dozens of guns per person. I've got quite the opposite view to you: I think that accidental shootings would be very unlikely even if lots of people carried weapons and furthermore I think your assertion that guns can "...kill or seriously injur dozens within a matter of seconds," is wrong when we're talking about accidental shootings, which is what you were originally talking about when you were bringing up health and safety in public places and building a hypothetical scenario about a shoot-out in a church. Trouble is, you've now moved the goalposts to talking about deliberate shootings (your school example) so it's difficult to figure out what point you're actually trying to make. Is it that you think guns cause lots of accidental deaths when carried by people in public places? Or is it that you think guns are just bad because they are designed to kill people? Or is it that you think gun ownership causes people to shoot each other on purpose?

If we're talking about accidental deaths, then I stand by my point that cars are more dangerous than guns, even when adjusting for ownership. And I think your ideas about people carrying guns in public places causing much 'friendly fire' are without foundation, though happy to be proved wrong on that with examples.

I've got a couple different points that I've been making, but I'll break them down.

1. The original discussion was whether it is appropriate to bring guns to church. For a number of reasons, I say absolutely not. My primary concern is safety reasons. The chruch has the obligation to make decisions on security and safety. The church should designate members or hire security to watch for things and be prepared to manage a given situation. An individual church member does not have the responsibility to do this. To take it upon himself or herself to carry a gun to church to protect people is very dangerous. If a lunatic comes in brandishing a weapon and shooting, a person who is not highly trained may try to shoot the individual, and hit somone in the pew behind or beside the individual. Firing a weapon in a crowded building is very foolish. Furthermore, it might interfere with the plan those in charge of safety have and are carrying out...they may think there are two gunmen and get confused, they may turn to see where the shots came from, giving more time to the gunman, etc. Furthermore, if churches started allowing people to carry weapons inside the church, they have NO control over who has weapons, have no idea whether they are adequately trained, or a good shot.

2. If every household had a gun, I guarantee you that accidental deaths would go up. I've known families where children were killed playing with a friend's dad's gun. I've known other situations where there were close calls. Tragic situations, and accidental deaths that could have easily been prevented. I refuse to have a gun in my house while children are living there (probably ever, but that is a differents story).

3. The comparison between guns and cars is silly. Guns are designed to kill people. That is their only purpose. Cars are designed as transportation. There is no comparison there. You can compare guns and knives, that is a fair comparison, but it breaks down because guns are much more deadly than knives are. Many people could not get to church without cars. Cars are necessary in our society, guns are not.

4. GUns make it very easy for those wanting to carry out intentional killings to do so. Guns are very effective at doing what they are designed to do. Why have limits on guns and not knives? No one could walk into a public place and kill 10 people in a matter of seconds with a knive, only a semi-automatic weapon. Government undoubtedly has the ability to regulate guns and restirct certain types of weapons, and should exercise that right to make it more difficult to obtain certain kinds of weapons (AK-47, a gun made so that it will not hold fingerprints, a gun designed to look like a toy, a tank, a missile, etc). There is no reason ANYONE outside of the military should have such weapons. None. Don't give me "it is my right." It is your right to bear arms, but government can have reasonable regulation and restrictions for public safety, that was acknowledged even in th latest Supreme Court decision.

[HappyChristian]

kind - I have to tell you that, from my personal experience, guns in the house do not equal tragedy...unless the parents don't teach the children the correct fear, respect and handling of guns.

I grew up with a grandfather who made guns. Not from kits - from scratch. He taught all four of us how to shoot. And he taught us (and our parents backed him all the way) to have a healthy respect and fear of them. We (my brothers) had toy guns, but never were any of us even slightly inclined to get one of the real guns to play with. Why? We were TRAINED not to.

When my son was growing up, he had toy guns. In fact, just about anything he got hold of became a "gun." We had several guns in the house. He knew they were there - but he never touched them. Why? Because he was taught in the same way I was - real guns are not toys. When he was four, he was given a rifle from my dad. That rifle was never taken out to play with - ever! Even when he had friends over. Again, why? Because he was taught it wasn't a toy.

These homes where there is such tragedy (and indeed it is a tragedy) are homes where the parents have not taught the kids a real true fear and respect of guns. Case in point: my son was visiting a friend of his. The friend thought it would be great fun to take down his dad's gun and show it to Joshua. That kind of thing is what so often leads to tragedy - children's curiosity, more than just playing with it. Joshua stopped him from taking it down. Why? Because that's what we taught him. Yes, his friend could've ignored him, but Joshua was taught to leave the room quickly if something like that happened.

The NRA teaches kids what to do if they find a gun: 1. Stop. 2. Don't touch. 3. Leave the room. 4. Get an adult. These rules seem simplistic, but they do work!

Responsible gun ownership (and the majority of gun owners are) lend itself to teaching children properly about them. Kids who find daddy's gun lying by the bed, loaded, are in homes where the parents aren't responsible gun owners. And tragedy happens. It makes me ill when something like that happens, because I KNOW it can be avoided.

If guns are so horrendously given to tragedy, there would be many, many more deaths, kind. The plain fact of the matter is that when a tragedy of that kind happens, the media milks it for all its worth (after all, they don't care about anything but the bottom line - selling papers, or getting listeners) and makes it sound like it's happening in greater and greater numbers right in small town America. But it isn't.

The fact of the matter is that half of the gun deaths in the US are from suicides. Not unintentional tragedies, not Columbine style shooting (where were the parents?????), not Killeen, TX style massacres. Suicides. Someone who is intent on killing him or herself will do so with or without a gun.

Suicide by: Males (%) Females (%)
Firearms 57 32
Suffocation 23 20
Poisoning 13 38

There are only three causes of suicide listed. There are other methods, but you get the picture (BTW - this list was compiled for a suicide prevention article, citing the CDC, so it's legit).

It's still sad that suicide deaths are done by gun, but it is something to think about when we hear CDC stats about all the gun deaths.

Alcohol and cars (not even the combination, but both alone and/or together) contribute much to deaths in this country. As do drugs. Do a study on the stats, and I think you will really be surprised to find that guns don't contribute as much to tragic deaths as many people believe!

Dwayne - good post!!

Al- the comparison to cars wasn't silly - it was apropro! Anything that can be used to kill is a good comparison.

kind - if you don't want to have guns in your home, that is 100% your choice. But your right to choose ends with you.

[Guest Guest]

Jerry#, I realize you are unable to see the other side on this (well most) issue(s). So this is not as much for you as it is for others.

Carry a weapon is not at all a matter of 'lack of faith.' Just like going to the doctor, or wearing a seatbelt, or locking your doors at night aren't matters of lacking faith either. There is a wisdom to doing all of those things appropriately.

For me to go to church means a 45 minute drive, a church service, dinner out with friends, and then another 45 minute drive. So our 1.5 hours of church are wrapped in 3 hours of other activity. If I don't carry to church, then I am ill-prepared for the rest of the time.

Also, as Deputy said, I think you are envisioning a worst case, wild-west, trigger-happy mentality to Concealed carry. That is the farthest thing from the truth. Instead, the idea is that the same rules apply in my home as they do anywhere else. I have a responsibility to do what I can to help my family be safe. So if you think it is ok to stop a person from hurting your family in your home, there is no difference because you are in a diner, or in the church building, or in a mall.

Sir,
In all honesty, there is a world of difference between carrying a gun and the other three things you listed.
God bless,
Crushmaster.

[dwayner79]

Sir,
In all honesty, there is a world of difference between carrying a gun and the other three things you listed.
God bless,
Crushmaster.

Not when it comes to matters of faith, IMO. I recognize there is a difference, but I do not see how they differ when it comes to if I have enough Faith in God.

Lets examine:

Wearing seatbelt. Do I trust God with my life? Yes, but I wear my seatbelt. Could wearing one be mis-construed as a sign that I do not trust God with my life? You bet.

Locking doors at night: Do I trust God to keep me safe from intruders? Sure, but I lock my doors at night. Could locking my doors be mis-construes as a sign that I do not trust God for my protection? You bet.

Going to the Doctor: Do I trust that God can and will heal me of my ailments? Sure, but I go to the Doctors when I get them. Could going to the Doctor's be mis-construed as a sign that I do not trust God with my health? You bet.

Carrying a gun: Do I trust God to protect me and my family from harm from a person who intends to kill us? Sure, but I carry a gun as a means of protection. Is my carrying a gun being mis-construed as a sign that I do not trust God with my and my families protection? You bet.

[Annie]

Not when it comes to matters of faith' date=' IMO. I recognize there is a difference, but I do not see how they differ when it comes to [b']if I have enough Faith in God.

Lets examine:

Wearing seatbelt. Do I trust God with my life? Yes, but I wear my seatbelt. Could wearing one be mis-construed as a sign that I do not trust God with my life? You bet.

Locking doors at night: Do I trust God to keep me safe from intruders? Sure, but I lock my doors at night. Could locking my doors be mis-construes as a sign that I do not trust God for my protection? You bet.

Going to the Doctor: Do I trust that God can and will heal me of my ailments? Sure, but I go to the Doctors when I get them. Could going to the Doctor's be mis-construed as a sign that I do not trust God with my health? You bet.

Carrying a gun: Do I trust God to protect me and my family from harm from a person who intends to kill us? Sure, but I carry a gun as a means of protection. Is my carrying a gun being mis-construed as a sign that I do not trust God with my and my families protection? You bet.

Nice post, dwayner. I'm sure we're all familiar with the verse, "Some trust in chariots and some in horses, but we will remember the name of the LORD our God." I believe David wrote that psalm. Did David use chariots and horses? Yep. Was he "trusting in" them? Nope.

Just because a person uses a physical object (seat belt, gun, medicine, lock, etc.) does not mean he is trusting in it to keep him and his family from harm. Our trust is to be in God. If it is something else, then we have created an idol in the place of where God should be. I think both "sides" in this discussion would do well to think about this idea...

If a person knows himself to be too dependent on a certain item for safety, then he either needs to get the right perspective, or else ditch the item (idol). (IMO, anyone who trusts fully in a seat belt, gun, or door lock is pretty inexperienced/immature, since we all know of incidents where each of these things have failed people.)

Those brethren who are unable to carry a gun in good conscience because they would find themselves trusting too much in it should not make judgments that others (who carry weapons) have the same temptation they would if they carried a weapon. It is uncharitable, pharisaical, and judgmental to look at someone who carries a gun and assume that their motives are not right in doing so.

[HappyChristian]

Nice post, dwayner. I'm sure we're all familiar with the verse, "Some trust in chariots and some in horses, but we will remember the name of the LORD our God." I believe David wrote that psalm. Did David use chariots and horses? Yep. Was he "trusting in" them? Nope.

Just because a person uses a physical object (seat belt, gun, medicine, lock, etc.) does not mean he is trusting in it to keep him and his family from harm. Our trust is to be in God. If it is something else, then we have created an idol in the place of where God should be. I think both "sides" in this discussion would do well to think about this idea...

If a person knows himself to be too dependent on a certain item for safety, then he either needs to get the right perspective, or else ditch the item (idol). (IMO, anyone who trusts fully in a seat belt, gun, or door lock is pretty inexperienced/immature, since we all know of incidents where each of these things have failed people.)

Those brethren who are unable to carry a gun in good conscience because they would find themselves trusting too much in it should not make judgments that others (who carry weapons) have the same temptation they would if they carried a weapon. It is uncharitable, pharisaical, and judgmental to look at someone who carries a gun and assume that their motives are not right in doing so.

to both of you!

[dwayner79]

Nice post, dwayner. I'm sure we're all familiar with the verse, "Some trust in chariots and some in horses, but we will remember the name of the LORD our God." I believe David wrote that psalm. Did David use chariots and horses? Yep. Was he "trusting in" them? Nope.

Just because a person uses a physical object (seat belt, gun, medicine, lock, etc.) does not mean he is trusting in it to keep him and his family from harm. Our trust is to be in God. If it is something else, then we have created an idol in the place of where God should be. I think both "sides" in this discussion would do well to think about this idea...

If a person knows himself to be too dependent on a certain item for safety, then he either needs to get the right perspective, or else ditch the item (idol). (IMO, anyone who trusts fully in a seat belt, gun, or door lock is pretty inexperienced/immature, since we all know of incidents where each of these things have failed people.)

Those brethren who are unable to carry a gun in good conscience because they would find themselves trusting too much in it should not make judgments that others (who carry weapons) have the same temptation they would if they carried a weapon. It is uncharitable, pharisaical, and judgmental to look at someone who carries a gun and assume that their motives are not right in doing so.

Wow! She said what I was trying to but 100 times clearer. :tip:

[JerryNumbers]

So now, those who do not use some sort of worldly symbol, object & or thing to help God protect them really do not have no faith, and those who use some sort of worldly symbol, object & or thing to help them stay safe are really trusting in God and are not really worldly symbol, object & or thing.

Sounds much like the excuse Moses got on returning to find out they had made a golden calf to trust in while Moses was up in the mountain.

It seems to me modern Christians sure do fear death so much that they expect everyplace that they go that they be furnished protection just in case someone happens to come along and kill them and or they carry their own protection.

I might add, when Daniel prayed openly at the windows He trusted only in God, not some type of worldly symbol, object & or thing, we surely could learn lessons from Daniel and the three Hebrew children if we truly believe it was true.

When Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego would not bow to the music at the sound of certain music, it seems their trust was wholly in God whether delivered them or not.

16 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter.
17 If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.
18 But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.
Dan 3:16-18 (KJV)

I suppose if y'all had of been Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, you would have been carrying a sword along with you while saying, I'm really trusting only in God to deliver me.

I might say to Dwayne that I can relate to your side, for just a few short years ago I would have stood with you on this topic, but I cannot now do so and be in good conscience with the Lord my God. The truth is you either trust Him or you don't trust Him, there is really no middle ground.

[deputydog530]

I have to tell you that, from my personal experience, guns in the house do not equal tragedy...unless the parents don't teach the children the correct fear, respect and handling of guns.

Exactly LuAnne

My children were taught from when they could walk about guns, showed them how they work, what damage they can cause etc. Point is, I took the curiosity out of it. I left one rifle out (no bolt in it) to see what they would do. They Never looked at it. I always told them if they ever wanted to look, touch, even shoot, the guns to ask. One time they came to me and asked to hold them. I let them, end of story. I trained them. Today they have a healthy respect for Guns still and are very safe and can resite the hunter safety rules as well as my rules :lol

Hey Bro Jerry, I dont think anyone is questioning your faith or anyone elses faith. Ive never met you face to face but can tell by your posts you are a faithful man who loves the Lord. The issue at hand, I stated my personal opinion in my prevous post.

Someone does not want a gun? great, more power to them. Someone does want one and want to carry one, if they are qualified, more power to them.

In Washington State 3/4 of the preachers are packing at the pulpit, its the culture there, not a faith issue.

If the Lord calls you home nothing, not even a gun will stop it. However, we all have choices. The bad guy has a choice to hurt or kill you (unless the Lord intervenes), and you have the choice to let him or fight back (unless the Lord intervenes). The decision rests with each individual. :smile

[Colin Stolzer]

So now, those who do not use some sort of worldly symbol, object & or thing to help God protect them really do not have no faith, and those who use some sort of worldly symbol, object & or thing to help them stay safe are really trusting in God and are not really worldly symbol, object & or thing.

Sounds much like the excuse Moses got on returning to find out they had made a golden calf to trust in while Moses was up in the mountain.

It seems to me modern Christians sure do fear death so much that they expect everyplace that they go that they be furnished protection just in case someone happens to come along and kill them and or they carry their own protection.

I might add, when Daniel prayed openly at the windows He trusted only in God, not some type of worldly symbol, object & or thing, we surely could learn lessons from Daniel and the three Hebrew children if we truly believe it was true.

When Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego would not bow to the music at the sound of certain music, it seems their trust was wholly in God whether delivered them or not.

16 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter.
17 If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.
18 But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.
Dan 3:16-18 (KJV)

I suppose if y'all had of been Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, you would have been carrying a sword along with you while saying, I'm really trusting only in God to deliver me.

I might say to Dwayne that I can relate to your side, for just a few short years ago I would have stood with you on this topic, but I cannot now do so and be in good conscience with the Lord my God. The truth is you either trust Him or you don't trust Him, there is really no middle ground.

I guess the only question I have for you here Jerry is, Are you still drawing your income from disability(social security)? If you are then you yourself are relying on one of those worldly things instead of fully trusting in God to provide for you. So are you still living on SSI? Inquiring minds want to know how your faith is doing since you are intent on questioning everybody else's faith. Beam and mote comes to mind in this case.