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Bring your guns to church


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John - you make me laugh sooo hard with your pacifist comments. God forbid - if something happened to one of your loved ones? You'd be a "Vigal Anti-Crusader" along with ALL of the other pacifist men on OB. Give me a break!! Really. I'll believe this when I see it. And, I hope and pray that I don't. I am certainly glad that I don't rely on you to protect me. I would be in serious trouble!

Molly


Molly is there really any need for personal assaults? How does pointing out what Scripture says make one a "Vigal Anti-Crusader" (which I have no idea what that even means!)? I'm not a pacifist at all. There are times for confrontation. The important thing is following what Scripture commands and in the course of our life to allow the Holy Ghost to guide our actions. I have nothing against guns. They have their place and uses. As Christians, Scripture should be our guide with regards to guns. Neither you or anyone else should rely upon another for protection. God is our shield and protector. Everyone who truly knows me knows that if trouble comes about I would be between them and the trouble. Over the years I've been called to a friends house to defend him and his sister from her drunken former boyfriend. My sister has called upon me several times. In my younger days several incidents came about where friends and loved ones were threatened yet not a one of them was touched. Back then I was foolish enough to believe it was me that protected them and held the wicked back but now I know it was all by the grace of God.

Do you recall the prophet of the Lord taking Jews from Babylon to Jerusalem to rebuild the wall? They had all those miles to travel, filled with bandits, criminals and worse. However, he had proclaimed to the king his God would protect them so he didn't ask for an armed escort. They took their situation before the Lord and the Lord provided them with the protection they needed.

Never forget, the angels of the Lord encamp round about His people. With God, we are never outnumbered.
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What does Scripture say about being willing to lay down your life for your friends? The answer to all things is in Scripture.

Yes, John, this is exactly what I was getting at. I'm glad that when all the layers are peeled away, you are in agreement that a person has an obligation to protect those he loves. (Whew! took a while to get here!)
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Who said that, i sure didn't, so why say that, it has nothing to do with the topic. It has everything to do with it, because people are trying to say if the Christians of the NT didn't do it, neither should we. So, we should do all the things they did and none of the things they didn't. Including protecting ourselves.

By the way, Jesus not only told him to put away the sword, Jesus also said they who live by the sword die by the sword. Yep. But He also told them to go buy swords. Funny, isn't it? He would have them secure swords, and then tell them those who live by them die by them. Could it remotely be possible that He was saying it was fine and good to have them, but not to be nuts about them? Hmmmm - maybe He was trying to teach a balance?

And I completely fail to understand why anyone would ask kindofbule why He keeps bring up Jesus. I never asked anyone why they keep bringing up Jesus.

Your advocating taking guns to church, of all places our faith ought to be greater when we are gathered together as a church than at any other time. I'm not advocating bringing guns to church. I am saying that I don't see a Biblical problem with it. Those who are trying to stretch scripture to make it say that it's wrong are doing exactly that - stretching scripture, according to their opinions.



By the way, if anyone had the right to live by the sword it was those of the early church for they were persecuted much more than you or I. Yep. As were the Christians in early America - who carried guns to church!
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Here's some stats: cars kill 15.5 people in the US' date=' whereas firearm deaths are between 10.5 and 15 people per 100,000. I would agree that cars aren't designed to kill people, which makes their efficacy at doing so all the more shocking. At my local school, no-one has ever been shot, whereas [i']every year several teenage pupils are killed in road 'accidents', the drivers usually taking out between 2 and 10 people with them, depending on the number of passengers, vehicles involved etc. In fact, the World Health Organisation recently listed roads as being the single biggest killer of teenagers worldwide.

The fact that guns are designed to kill people is irrelevant unless you are attempting to argue that bringing guns into churches will cause churchgoers to shoot each other on purpose. In your earlier examples you were talking about accidental shootings; well the capacity for cars to kill and injure accidentally far exceeds that of guns. Fire a gun in the wrong direction? You might kill two people. Fall asleep at the wheel? You could kill 10.

Sorry to go off on one but you did claim trc123 was being 'absurd' for comparing cars with guns.


But look at the number of people that own cars compared to guns. If as many people owned guns as owned cars, I guarantee you gun deaths would be much higher than car deaths. You've got to take into account that while most families own a car or more than one car, and use the cars every day, there are probably more families than not that do not own guns in their house.

I am in full support of raising the driving age to 18, because most car deaths involve teenagers, and are very dangerous.

The two cannot be compared. Why? Nearly every family owns and uses a car ever day. Not everyone owns and uses guns. If you look per capita, I'm certain gun deaths are a much higher percentage.

And someone did ask me why I kept brining Jesus into this...I'd have to go back and look to see who it was, but you can look back and find it if you are curious.
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I would like to add that there is a big difference in protecting yourself or familiy member form an intruder in your home, and taking it up on yourself to protect a crowd in a public place.

The first example, it is your responsibility to protect yourself and family, and there is no dobut that God would want for me to protect my wife and daughter from harm. I am a pacifist by and large, but there is a point where we must defend those that we love. If it were just me, I'd tell the intruder to take everything I own and be on his merry way. But if my wife or daughter, I would do what is necessary (though I would not use a gun because I do not own one).

The second example, security is a public decision. The church must make a plan and enact a security plan, and an individual should not do so when doing so may put the lives of others in danger. The church should have designated people looking for trouble and ready to act if necessary to protect others. IF the church has a plan, and an individual acts outside of that plan, it might actually cause more harm and more danger, especially if such actions mean firing a gun in a crowded place. Look at the folks in Illinois where the pastor was shot and killed...they handled the situation without guns, and subdued the killer before he could do even more harm. Anytime a gunfight breaks out in a public place full of people, it increases the danger of deaths.

Those in charge of securing public places such as malls, chruches, sporting arenas, etc., all must have a security plan...they have the responsibility. An individual taking it upon himself to brandish a gun and subdue the perpetrator is placing the lives of others in more danger than they already are. That kind of stuff is great in the movies, but in real life, can get very messy. There are saftey and liability issues invovled, and it is foolish for anyone to take that upon themselves without being given the job to do so by those in control of the property.

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Isn't the main point about whether Christians need to bring guns to church or should? It seems we've got far away from that.

I've taken the Gospel into the heart of Chicago gangland. I've walked in places where the police won't go without backup. Never once did I carry a gun (or any other weapon for that matter). I've dealt with Black Gangster Disciples, Vice Lords, Spanish Lords, Latin Kings, etc. I've been threatened, confronted and seen several weapons displayed to intimidate me. I'm no "super Christian", I'm no Elijah seeing the army of the Lord about me, yet trusting in the Lord I went into these places and dealt with those who were known for robbing, beating and killing those who violated their territory, especially whites.

My story is a minor thing, many other Christians have went into far more dangerous places and have faced as deadly and deadlier lost folks. They carried no weapons, they relied upon the Lord for their protection.

Should we not be able to have the same faith and trust in the Lord for protection in church as we can when we face the violent street gangs or savage natives in the outland?

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Isn't the main point about whether Christians need to bring guns to church or should? It seems we've got far away from that.

I've taken the Gospel into the heart of Chicago gangland. I've walked in places where the police won't go without backup. Never once did I carry a gun (or any other weapon for that matter). I've dealt with Black Gangster Disciples, Vice Lords, Spanish Lords, Latin Kings, etc. I've been threatened, confronted and seen several weapons displayed to intimidate me. I'm no "super Christian", I'm no Elijah seeing the army of the Lord about me, yet trusting in the Lord I went into these places and dealt with those who were known for robbing, beating and killing those who violated their territory, especially whites.

My story is a minor thing, many other Christians have went into far more dangerous places and have faced as deadly and deadlier lost folks. They carried no weapons, they relied upon the Lord for their protection.

Should we not be able to have the same faith and trust in the Lord for protection in church as we can when we face the violent street gangs or savage natives in the outland?


John,

I know we don't agree on much on this board, but I am 100% in agrement with you on this issue.
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:soap:

There is nothing wrong with carrying a concealed weapon to Church, However I would never promote it. Only those who have been trained and are licensed to carry concealed should do so as they desire.

I always considered myself a peace officer before anything else, note the verse on my signature. Law enforcment was my ministry Romans 13. We responded to several incidents where citizens held home invasion robbers at gun point till we got there. No telling what would have happened if the folks were not armed.

That being said, if someone does not desire to carry a weapon, more power to them. Its a choice we have in America for the time being.

I rarely carry to Church now that im retired (I have taken an offering before in uniform while armed :lol , it was a good offering too :frog )

A person who carries with common sense knows that if something goes down (lets say a bank robbery) they would not pull their weapon but rather be a good witness, unless the threat to life is imeadiate.

I carry in a fanny pack. I have been told I have an invisible arrow pointing to me saying ex cop. When I go to the city the gang bangers size me up and step away. They can tell im packing. I never stare at them or do anything to provoke them.

My point in this is that common sense while carrying is a good thing if that is what a person chooses to do. If not, that s ok too.

Just dont do a magazine check during the invitation. :bonk::bonk:

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:soap:

There is nothing wrong with carrying a concealed weapon to Church, However I would never promote it. Only those who have been trained and are licensed to carry concealed should do so as they desire.

I always considered myself a peace officer before anything else, note the verse on my signature. Law enforcment was my ministry Romans 13. We responded to several incidents where citizens held home invasion robbers at gun point till we got there. No telling what would have happened if the folks were not armed.

That being said, if someone does not desire to carry a weapon, more power to them. Its a choice we have in America for the time being.

I rarely carry to Church now that im retired (I have taken an offering before in uniform while armed :lol , it was a good offering too :frog )

A person who carries with common sense knows that if something goes down (lets say a bank robbery) they would not pull their weapon but rather be a good witness, unless the threat to life is imeadiate.

I carry in a fanny pack. I have been told I have an invisible arrow pointing to me saying ex cop. When I go to the city the gang bangers size me up and step away. They can tell im packing. I never stare at them or do anything to provoke them.

My point in this is that common sense while carrying is a good thing if that is what a person chooses to do. If not, that s ok too.

Just dont do a magazine check during the invitation. :bonk::bonk:

:goodpost:
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Do you recall the prophet of the Lord taking Jews from Babylon to Jerusalem to rebuild the wall? They had all those miles to travel, filled with bandits, criminals and worse. However, he had proclaimed to the king his God would protect them so he didn't ask for an armed escort. They took their situation before the Lord and the Lord provided them with the protection they needed.


Funny you should mention that John, while what you say about Ezra is perfectly true look at what Nehemiah did when he got there.

Nehemiah 4:17 They which builded on the wall, and they that bare burdens, with those that laded, every one with one of his hands wrought in the work, and with the other hand held a weapon.

Were they not trusting God? Yes they were. [bible]Nehemiah 4:7-21[/bible]
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