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Bring your guns to church


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I think it's interesting that people keep bringing up the fact that Jesus told Peter to put away his sword, and that's reason enough not to have a gun (in church). Yet, Jesus is the one who told the disciples before this to get swords. Now, why would He say that if He didn't want them to have them?

And no-one here is advocating "living by the gun." Self-protection is not unscriptural.

There are a lot of things that are done differently in our country, under a republican (used to be) form of government than under the Roman empire of the NT period. I guess since Jesus and Paul lived under an emporer, we should want that, too.


I'm not saying self protection is unscriptural.

My main concern is safety. Lets say you have a church of 500 people. 8 people are carrying concealed guns "to protect" people. A gunman comes in and shoots the preacher. Five of the eight pull guns and start firing at the gunman. Confusion begins. People run, and people are hit by those "protecting" the congregation by their own accord. It is very dangerous.

I'm saying that a church as a community should take up safety measures. The community should designate what to do in such in event, and that plan needs to be followed for maximum safety. When you have individuals acting of their own accord for the safety of others, that may interfere with the safety plan in place and actually harm those he is trying to protect.

From a scriptural standpoint, I'm saying people need to take a hard look at whether to cling to their guns. Is that really necessary for protection? Is that how we love our enemies, by carrying a weapon that kills people? Is that consistent with the teachings of Christ? Is it necessary for your protection (for me it is not....but if I were a judge sentencing criminals every day, perhaps it would be because people getting out of jail would have it out for me). Are there better ways to provide for your protection that are not so dangerous to the lives of others? (Many children are killed by guns kept in the home).

When Jesus says turn to the other cheek, does he mean it? Or does he mean it except when protecting yourself from harm? That is a tough teaching, but hey, it is what he said, and did by his own example. So isn't that what we should do as well? Does it go against our nature? It sure does, but so do many other teaching of Christ. Our nature is sinful and selfish after all. These are hard questions, that warrant hard thought and debate to come to a conclusion, yet many seem to say that Jesus didn't mean turn to the other cheek because we are to surely protect ourselves. Maybe that is the case, but is that just making examples to the teachings of Christ?

I don't know the answer, but I do know the techings of Jesus causes a conflict within me, but isn't that the point? Jesus lived and taught a way to live higher than our own nature.
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I totally agree with you about Jesus' teachings, kind. I really do. And I understand your hesitancy about having guns at church. The difference between us, I think, is our view of gun owners. You are imagining a worse case scenario (that could happen, I admit), but I don't know how much actual experience you have with gun owners (you could have a good bit!). But as I stated before, the gun owners I know would not just take out their guns and start firing. Most gun owners are very responsible, and know how to use guns. They know that collateral damage is a very real, very scary possibility, and they look out for that. No-one who owns a gun responsibly wants to kill anyone - nor even really injure them. The purpose of owning a gun is for protection. That is the form of protection we have in these modern times (many are learning martial arts, which is good, but even that isn't protection against someone having a gun or even a knife).

The weapon of the average man in NT times was a sword. Yes, Jesus said to turn the other cheek...but He also told His disciple to get swords. We need to balance His teachings out. I do not for any moment believe that He was teaching us to be pacifistic. I think He was teaching us to be discerning. Basically, if someone is going to come after us for our faith, we are to turn the other cheek. But a gunman coming into church and shooting isn't doing it because of our faith. He is doing it because of power.

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Of course, we are to bring up Christ when making a point. And, "unashamedly so." I agree 100%. Christ is everything! He is the "air that we breathe." For the record - my church has other security measures in place. Sadly, my deacon's oldest son was murdured in a restaurant nearby our church several years ago. Therefore, we have many people who are sheepish about guns. And, for good reason! I do believe, though, that Jesus would NOT expect His children to be treated as "Door Mats." When Christ paid it all on the Cross of Calvary? That summed up EVERYTHING He did for us.

I don't believe that every individual should own a gun. In fact, many people aren't mentally qualified to have a gun in their hand. :eek I DO believe that Jesus makes it clear that we are to protect ourselves, though. He doesn't want aggressive or passive behavior from His kids. He wants us to be assertive. That would mean - we aren't supposed to roll over and let the enemy kill us without a fight. God instills that defense mechanism inside of every human being. I'll call it self-preservation. Jesus was the exception!

God forbid that something should happen (like the above) to one of our loved ones. Btw, there was NO news coverage on the article in many parts of the USA. Columbine took precedence over a lot of things that happened in the USA. Something like this happens in a church? For example, the shooting of the abortionist doctor? That incident (which is very tragic) hits the media as fast as I can sneeze - and something like this stays buried? Unless you know someone who was involved in this slaying? 7 people were killed (and many other wounded) by a madman who disagreed with what was being taught in that church? How is that justifiable?

A gun is a weapon like a person's hands. Don't forget we have people out there that can kill a person in self- defense with their bare hands. I know a few of them. Former Navy Seals and Marines - to be exact. A knife is another object to use in self-defense. If a person is licensed to carry? Obviously, that person can carry that weapon wherever they go. I sat in a Greek Orthodox wedding years ago - where several ATF agents were on active duty. Many one of them had a gun on them. Was I afraid? Quite the contrary. I felt protected.

When bringing a gun to church? It doesn't mean we are to sit in our pews with loaded weapons. Other measures can be taken to ensure the safety of the flock and a person's gun would be last restort. Btw, the first time I learned how to shoot a rifle? I was a Girl Scout.

In Christ Jesus ~

Molly
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I think it's interesting that people keep bringing up the fact that Jesus told Peter to put away his sword, and that's reason enough not to have a gun (in church). Yet, Jesus is the one who told the disciples before this to get swords. Now, why would He say that if He didn't want them to have them?

And no-one here is advocating "living by the gun." Self-protection is not unscriptural.

There are a lot of things that are done differently in our country, under a republican (used to be) form of government than under the Roman empire of the NT period. I guess since Jesus and Paul lived under an emporer, we should want that, too.


Who said that, i sure didn't, so why say that, it has nothing to do with the topic.

By the way, Jesus not only told him to put away the sword, Jesus also said they who live by the sword die by the sword.

And I completely fail to understand why anyone would ask kindofbule why He keeps bring up Jesus.

Your advocating taking guns to church, of all places our faith ought to be greater when we are gathered together as a church than at any other time.



By the way, if anyone had the right to live by the sword it was those of the early church for they were persecuted much more than you or I.
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My main concern is safety...Are there better ways to provide for your protection that are not so dangerous to the lives of others? (Many children are killed by guns kept in the home).

If your main concern is health and safety, then are you saying it is just too dangerous for people to carry their own guns per se? If so, wouldn't you say the same about carrying guns anywhere--say, a shopping centre or a football match?

Personally, if I was a Pastor who was concerned about health and safety, I would put a sign up banning motor cars before I put a sign up banning guns. They're much more dangerous; I wonder how many people are killed each year by car journeys back and forth to church.
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New Testament Christians faced attacks from merchants, criminals, various persons and sometimes the government. What is the example of how they dealt with this, which the Holy Ghost placed in Scripture as our example? Did they gather weapons to take to church? Did they pray to the Lord for protection and guidance? What example did the Holy Ghost give for us to live by?

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If your main concern is health and safety, then are you saying it is just too dangerous for people to carry their own guns per se? If so, wouldn't you say the same about carrying guns anywhere--say, a shopping centre or a football match?

Personally, if I was a Pastor who was concerned about health and safety, I would put a sign up banning motor cars before I put a sign up banning guns. They're much more dangerous; I wonder how many people are killed each year by car journeys back and forth to church.


Yes, I have the same concerns about people taking guns into any public place. If I owned a shopping mall, I'd ban all weapons at the mall. If I ran a football stadium, I would do the same thing. There is not point in people bringing guns to such events. None. Unless they are hired security by the property owner.
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New Testament Christians faced attacks from merchants' date=' criminals, various persons and sometimes the government. What is the example of how they dealt with this, which the Holy Ghost placed in Scripture as our example? Did they gather weapons to take to church? Did they pray to the Lord for protection and guidance? What example did the Holy Ghost give for us to live by?[/quote']

Come on John, furnish some answers. :smile
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Yes, I have the same concerns about people taking guns into any public place. If I owned a shopping mall, I'd ban all weapons at the mall. If I ran a football stadium, I would do the same thing. There is not point in people bringing guns to such events. None. Unless they are hired security by the property owner.

You realize that you will only succeed in banning law abiding folks from carrying guns right? You will never stop criminals and crazies from bringing guns on your property.
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You realize that you will only succeed in banning law abiding folks from carrying guns right? You will never stop criminals and crazies from bringing guns on your property.



Yes I know that. You cannot stop a crazy person from coming in and shooting people. However, security and police are the proper ones to handle the situation. I would not be comfortable in entrusting security and safety in my place of business to civilians who take it upon themselves to carry a gun around for such purposes. That opens me up to liability if they kill someone. If security or police kill a bystander, then insurance protects for that.

We do not live in the "wild west." Allowing people to bring their guns into public places is terrible policy. You , as the propert owner have no idea if they are trained to use the weapons, are a skilled shot, etc. You have no idea their background and experience. On the other hand, when you hire your security, you can perform background checks, require a certain level of training, and know that you have done all you can to protect people in your place of business or recreation or where every you own open to the public.
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Yes, I have the same concerns about people taking guns into any public place. If I owned a shopping mall, I'd ban all weapons at the mall. If I ran a football stadium, I would do the same thing. There is not point in people bringing guns to such events. None. Unless they are hired security by the property owner.


I'm curious as to why you are also not calling for the removal of laundry bleach, sharp knives, garbage disposals, family cars, pets and other things that are statistically MUCH more dangerous than a gun; especially when most of the guns are locked up in some manner and these other dangerous items are not?
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There will be no need to form an "opinion" because Scripture is very clear. Nowhere do the NT Christians gather weapons to take to church. Nowhere do they fight against those who are persecuting them, whether it be merchants, government, citizens or whoever. They either accepted what came to them with joy or they fled to safer areas.

Some have posted examples of this in this or one of the other recent threads but they seem to have been ignored.

Christians are told clearly they are to be very different than non-Christians. Part of that difference is not fighting back against enemies. Part of that difference is esteeming ALL others as better than yourself. Part of that difference is being more concerned about ALL others salvation than your own life. Part of that difference is accepting that this life is for God's glory, not for our own pleasure, or for us to see how long we can live, or to do our own thing or anything other than living for God and serving His purpose. Part of that difference is accepting that God doesn't intend for all of us to live in peace, or to live a long life, or to die in our sleep, or to have our loved ones with us for any certain amount of time.

No matter what happens to a Christian in this life it amounts to the briefest blip of time in comparison to eternity. How horrible to be beaten or raped to death but how glorious to suddenly be with the Lord!

Our ways are not God's ways and we can't understand the beginning from the end as He does. Sometimes it serves the Lord's purposes for us to suffer well or even die well. By "well" I mean biblically, as the New Testament commands us.

The New Testament Chrisitans trusted the Lord for their protection and provision. They knew if they were attacked that nothing could happen to them unless the Lord allowed it...and if the Lord allowed it there was good reason for it. When we trust in God and obey Him, we know we can trust that God will work ALL THINGS together for good.
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