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God knows exactly what would bring any individual to salvation in Christ. Jesus stated that if the miracles He did before the Jews had been done in previous times among other people those people would have repented. Why didn't God send somone to do a miracle among those people knowing if He did they would repent?

What do you say to the Chinese and American Indians who ask why God would deal exclusively with Israel for thousands of years while sending no one to them telling them how to avoid damnation?

These are questions I've encountered many times over the years.

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What do you say to the Chinese and American Indians who ask why God would deal exclusively with Israel for thousands of years while sending no one to them telling them how to avoid damnation?

These are questions I've encountered many times over the years.


The fault lies with their forefathers...not with God. Mankind was given the knowledge from the beginning.

God required a blood sacrifice for Adam's sin, and surely this information was passed on to his children.

Fast forward to Cain and Abel. Abel brought a blood sacrifice, but Cain didn't...Cain tried to please God by his own works. Hence, rebellion against God's salvation plan began.

Time wore on, and man continued in his rebellion against God. So, seeing the wickedness of man, God sends a flood to destroy all living (man and animal) except those of Noah's family. Now, remember that there were two of every unclean animal on the ark, but there were seven of the clean animals on the ark. That's three pairs of every clean animal plus one extra animal. Why the one extra?

Genesis 8:20
And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

The extra clean animal was for sacrifice. Noah and his family had this knowledge, yet as man began to multiply again on the earth...sin prevailed...rebellion prevailed, and the knowledge of a blood sacrifice for sin wasn't passed down to subsequent generations.

Mankind was given the knowledge that God required a blood sacrifice for their sins...from the beginning. Adam, Cain, Abel, and Noah were all BEFORE Abraham...and before the establishment of the nation of Israel and the sacrificial system.

The problem lies with man's rebellion against God...wanting to do things his way instead of God's way. The knowledge was there, but man (in his sin and rebellion) didn't pass that knowledge on to the next generations.

Lost people won't understand that, but the fault lies with their forefathers...not with God. Edited by No Nicolaitans

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No Nicolaitans:
The problem lies with man's rebellion against God...wanting to do things his way instead of God's way. The knowledge was there, but man (in his sin and rebellion) didn't pass that knowledge on to the next generations.

Lost people won't understand that, but the fault lies with their forefathers...not with God.

So hundreds of generations suffer because of the sins, not only of Adam, but of their forefathers.

I do not think so.

Ezek. 18:
20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall n
ot
bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

21
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall n
ot
die.

22
All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall n
ot
be me
nt
ioned u
nt
o him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

23
Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and n
ot
that he should return from his ways, and live?


Why did God choose Abraham, & make a covenant with him & his seed, but not give him a specific Gospel for the nations?

God promised a Gospel for all nations on earth, but this was sent out after Jesus had finished his saving work.

The answers is in God's own plans & purpses in & through Jesus Christ. I cannot offer a better answer.

Gen. 12 .... in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Gen. 22:
18
And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast
ob
eyed my voice.

Gal. 3:
14
That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Ge
nt
iles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

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The fault lies with their forefathers...not with God. Mankind was given the knowledge from the beginning.

God required a blood sacrifice for Adam's sin, and surely this information was passed on to his children.

Fast forward to Cain and Abel. Abel brought a blood sacrifice, but Cain didn't...Cain tried to please God by his own works. Hence, rebellion against God's salvation plan began.

Time wore on, and man continued in his rebellion against God. So, seeing the wickedness of man, God sends a flood to destroy all living (man and animal) except those of Noah's family. Now, remember that there were two of every unclean animal on the ark, but there were seven of the clean animals on the ark. That's three pairs of every clean animal plus one extra animal. Why the one extra?

Genesis 8:20
And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

The extra clean animal was for sacrifice. Noah and his family had this knowledge, yet as man began to multiply again on the earth...sin prevailed...rebellion prevailed, and the knowledge of a blood sacrifice for sin wasn't passed down to subsequent generations.

Mankind was given the knowledge that God required a blood sacrifice for their sins...from the beginning. Adam, Cain, Abel, and Noah were all BEFORE Abraham...and before the establishment of the nation of Israel and the sacrificial system.

The problem lies with man's rebellion against God...wanting to do things his way instead of God's way. The knowledge was there, but man (in his sin and rebellion) didn't pass that knowledge on to the next generations.

Lost people won't understand that, but the fault lies with their forefathers...not with God.

This is true but it doesn't change the fact God specifically chose to give Jews special attention and insight He didn't provide to others on the planet. It's clear even from the history of the Jewish people that without special attention the Jewish people would have followed the same path as the Gentile peoples.

If God wanted all saved during the thousands of years of the Old Testament period, why did He only give special insight and attention to a small, stiff-necked tribe of Hebrews (which God specifically brought into being after specifically calling Abram). Why didn't God raise up prophets among the Chinese, Mayans, Picts, Zulu or any other people?

Why did God specifically call Abram out of paganism and create a new people through him which God would deal with directly while not specifically calling anyone else out of paganism and dealing directly with that people?

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Although the Antichrist will have great success and will be given the rule of the whole earth for the last half of the tribulation period, his defeat has already been recorded and sealed.


Revelation 13:11–18 KJV
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had
two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

142 ␣ AMERICA’S LAST WARNING


Revelation 13:11–18 KJV
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.


In Revelation 13:11–18, we see that the False Prophet comes as a counterfeit lamb of God. He will have miraculous powers that he will use to promote the Antichrist, who will be wounded as unto death. The False Prophet will do great wonders, deceive the world, and make an image of the Antichrist that will be placed in the rebuilt Jewish temple in Jerusalem. The image of the Antichrist known as the abomination of desolation will probably be seen all over the world, if television and the Internet are still functional.
The Antichrist will initiate a unique identification system worldwide. Every person on earth must choose to receive an I.D. code, or mark of the Antichrist, in their right hands or in their foreheads or die.
Christians, however, need not worry about credit cards in our pockets or computer chips in our hands because the system called the mark of the Beast will not be implemented while the church-age believers are still on earth. We’ll have gone with the Lord to heaven at the time of the rapture before this I.D. program is installed.

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What is that supposed to mean? To answer you - no, I was responding to Invicta posting verses in post #124.

That's what I thought you were responding to but given the context of the verse you quoted one has to wonder just what your meaning is.

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This is true but it doesn't change the fact God specifically chose to give Jews special attention and insight He didn't provide to others on the planet. It's clear even from the history of the Jewish people that without special attention the Jewish people would have followed the same path as the Gentile peoples.

If God wanted all saved during the thousands of years of the Old Testament period, why did He only give special insight and attention to a small, stiff-necked tribe of Hebrews (which God specifically brought into being after specifically calling Abram). Why didn't God raise up prophets among the Chinese, Mayans, Picts, Zulu or any other people?

Why did God specifically call Abram out of paganism and create a new people through him which God would deal with directly while not specifically calling anyone else out of paganism and dealing directly with that people?


Deuteronomy 29:29a
The secret things belong unto the LORD our God:

I don't claim to know...all that I (or anyone) can do is speculate with what little knowledge is given to us in God's word; therefore, I want to make sure that it's understood...these are my thoughts...

God, who is omniscient, knew that Abram would do what he told him to do. Perhaps Abram was the only man on earth that God knew would obey him...the only man that God could use to carry out his ultimate plan of future redemption.

God told Abram...

Genesis 12:3
And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Genesis 22:18
18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

The world was so deep in paganism, and God knows the heart of every man. Could Abram have been the only man on earth that God knew would do his will? I don't know, but there was something about Abram...and Abram alone...that found favor with God.

Now, just as we have missionaries today, the nation of Israel was to be a national missionary to the nations.

Deuteronomy 4:5-6
5 Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the LORD my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it.
6 Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.

1 Kings 8:41-43
41 Moreover concerning a stranger, that is not of thy people Israel, but cometh out of a far country for thy name's sake;
42 (For they shall hear of thy great name, and of thy strong hand, and of thy stretched out arm;) when he shall come and pray toward this house;
43 Hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and do according to all that the stranger calleth to thee for: that all people of the earth may know thy name, to fear thee, as do thy people Israel; and that they may know that this house, which I have builded, is called by thy name.

1 Chronicles 16:23-24
23 Sing unto the LORD, all the earth; shew forth from day to day his salvation.
24 Declare his glory among the heathen; his marvellous works among all nations.

Unfortunately, Israel didn't carry out this commission. They took their position (God's chosen people) to the extreme and only viewed the other nations as outsiders.

I still think that regardless of God choosing Abram and the nation of Israel...had man not been so rebellious to begin with, the failure of the forefathers to pass on the knowledge to subsequent generations is the driving reason...but that's my opinion.

Look at our country today. Generations of rebellion against God has led to...

At one time, those thought to be witches were burned alive...now witchcraft is cool and popular. (Not that I agree with burning people!)

At one time, homosexuals were "in the closet"...now they are out and proud, and Christians are going into the closet.

At one time, ....well, I'll stop now...don't want to get on a soapbox.

We don't know why God does things the way he chooses, and that won't satisfy everyone. All I know is that God has a reason for doing what he did (and does), God knows best, and I trust him.

We can go round-and-round wondering, philosophizing, and speculating. What matters (to me) is, we live in the age of grace, and God offers salvation to people today. I can't do anything about what happened in the past, but I can do something about today. People allow the past to put up barriers to what God offers today, and that's sad.

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Deuteronomy 29:29a
The secret things belong unto the LORD our God:

I don't claim to know...all that I (or anyone) can do is speculate with what little knowledge is given to us in God's word; therefore, I want to make sure that it's understood...these are my thoughts...

God, who is omniscient, knew that Abram would do what he told him to do. Perhaps Abram was the only man on earth that God knew would obey him...the only man that God could use to carry out his ultimate plan of future redemption.

God told Abram...

Genesis 12:3
And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Genesis 22:18
18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

The world was so deep in paganism, and God knows the heart of every man. Could Abram have been the only man on earth that God knew would do his will? I don't know, but there was something about Abram...and Abram alone...that found favor with God.

Now, just as we have missionaries today, the nation of Israel was to be a national missionary to the nations.

Deuteronomy 4:5-6
5 Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the LORD my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it.
6 Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.

1 Kings 8:41-43
41 Moreover concerning a stranger, that is not of thy people Israel, but cometh out of a far country for thy name's sake;
42 (For they shall hear of thy great name, and of thy strong hand, and of thy stretched out arm;) when he shall come and pray toward this house;
43 Hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and do according to all that the stranger calleth to thee for: that all people of the earth may know thy name, to fear thee, as do thy people Israel; and that they may know that this house, which I have builded, is called by thy name.

1 Chronicles 16:23-24
23 Sing unto the LORD, all the earth; shew forth from day to day his salvation.
24 Declare his glory among the heathen; his marvellous works among all nations.

Unfortunately, Israel didn't carry out this commission. They took their position (God's chosen people) to the extreme and only viewed the other nations as outsiders.

I still think that regardless of God choosing Abram and the nation of Israel...had man not been so rebellious to begin with, the failure of the forefathers to pass on the knowledge to subsequent generations is the driving reason...but that's my opinion.

Look at our country today. Generations of rebellion against God has led to...

At one time, those thought to be witches were burned alive...now witchcraft is cool and popular. (Not that I agree with burning people!)

At one time, homosexuals were "in the closet"...now they are out and proud, and Christians are going into the closet.

At one time, ....well, I'll stop now...don't want to get on a soapbox.

We don't know why God does things the way he chooses, and that won't satisfy everyone. All I know is that God has a reason for doing what he did (and does), God knows best, and I trust him.

We can go round-and-round wondering, philosophizing, and speculating. What matters (to me) is, we live in the age of grace, and God offers salvation to people today. I can't do anything about what happened in the past, but I can do something about today. People allow the past to put up barriers to what God offers today, and that's sad.

Amen!!!

The past is passed, so let's just get past it. As the Apostle Paul, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, said in Philippians 3:10-14:

Philippians 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

Philippians 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Philippians 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Philippians 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

Philippians 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

When our pastor's wife was diagnosed with brain cancer in 2007, she quoted the last part of Genesis 18:25 :

Genesis 18:25b Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

God's ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts:

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

Isaiah 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

:11backtotopic:

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Just a thought. The Aztec Indians said they had been visited by a white man in a boat and they offered blood sacrifices to God. Maybe God did send them a witness.

The Aztecs offered human blood sacrifices to the sun god.

Outside of the Mormons claiming Jesus came to the American Indians, I don't know of anyone who thinks God sent someone to anyone other than those of Israel, and those near Israel God sent someone to (such as Jonah to Nineveh).

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Some speculate that the mark of the beast is already here... the microchip... verichip. I saw a documentary about this. And a family in the US already have these implants in their body... So, this is it?... One id system... unification all boils down to?.....

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Some speculate that the mark of the beast is already here... the microchip... verichip. I saw a documentary about this. And a family in the US already have these implants in their body... So, this is it?... One id system... unification all boils down to?.....

As you say, some "speculate" on this, and that's all it is, speculation. It wasn't that many years ago many speculated the bar codes was the mark of the beast.

While it can be interesting to consider such things, it really doesn't matter. When a world ruler demands that everyone take his mark in order to buy anything, things will be fairly clear.

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It's ok to have an id that has all your 'ids on it (health card, insurance etc.) but the idea of having a small implant microchip on my body is a no, no. So John, you know about the verichip?


Each of these small incremental steps moves us somewhat closer to the mark of the beast. It's a gradual process like frogs sitting in a pan of cold water. Apply just a bit of heat to the pot, and the water becomes more pleasant. (The convenience of bar codes, processing checks at Wal-Mart without the physical check going through the bank, VIP cards at grocery stores for discounts, etc. & etc. ) Apply a bit more heat and the frogs begin to enjoy the relaxation of a hot tub. As they begin to snooze, the heat is turned up a degree or two. Ahhhh, the convenience of all my insurance records and medical history on that bit of plastic. The convenience of having a cart full of groceries scanned as I walk by is oh so nice. It's so much work to put all that stuff on the counter, since it's going right back into the cart.

That stove knob is tweaked just a bit more. Filing my tax returns on line is so much easier than fooling with paper and stamps. I'm glad that I don't have to buy paper checks anymore. Automatic debits and credits to my bank account for earnings and paying routine bills is so easy, now.

Hey fellows! Anyone notice that it's getting a little hot in our pool? That breeze feels good as the pot lid begins to decend over the pot. Frog stew for supper tonight!

It really doesn't matter what form the mark of the beast will take. An implant? Possibly. A tattoo using magnetic ink? With the explosion of tattoo "art" even among professing Christians, who's going to complain about a few more dots along an eyebrow when that simply means fast & easy paperless transactions.

How much longer will governments accept paper tax returns?
How much longer will you be able to write a paper check and receive paper money?
How many more VIP shopping cards will you have to carry around before a "master" VIP card links all your cards with a unique ID. One swipe of your new VIP card links your medical records database. Since the internet search engines are already using targeted advertising, one "harmless" use of your VIP card for free shipping, continues the database linking process with your unique ID.

As dependance grows (water warming ever so slightly), independence is phased out. (Remember paper checks & money?) When the time is right, a pot lid, coming as a gentle breeze, will seal the fate of the world. When the lid of a pressure cooker is firmly clamped down, there is no escape.

Think about it for a moment. Those firmly in satan's grasp could care less about a little more body ink or a sliver of an implant since it makes their lives easier. Often those that are undecided will go with the flow, the path of least resistance, as will many lukewarm Christians. That leaves only a remnant of people who will face the horror of the mark of the beast. The few who walk the narrow path and enter the narrow gate. Only that few will recognize, for what it's worth, the illusion of a comfortable hot tub.

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Oldtimer, you make it sound like using computer technology and going paperless are evil in themselves - and they are not (though the Bible does teach that marking our bodies IS wrong in itself). Yes, each advancement in these types of technology take us one step closer to the final system. One thing to consider though: it is more than a cashless system or any kind of mark - it is giving voluntary allegiance to the antichrist and Satan.

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Most pets, dogs and cats have microchips already.

Yes, this is becoming very common. It's also becoming more common for some parents to put chips in their children's backpacks or elsewhere. There are also certain jobs which require one to have a chip implanted in them, for security reasons.

It won't be long before the idea to have all children microchipped will be pushed. They will use the old "for the benefit of the children" routine which always works so well. We will be told if we love our pets enough to protect them with microchips we should love our children enough to do the same.

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Yes, this is becoming very common. It's also becoming more common for some parents to put chips in their children's backpacks or elsewhere. There are also certain jobs which require one to have a chip implanted in them, for security reasons.

It won't be long before the idea to have all children microchipped will be pushed. They will use the old "for the benefit of the children" routine which always works so well. We will be told if we love our pets enough to protect them with microchips we should love our children enough to do the same.

Such systems could never be universal, nor would they be readily implemented:
16
And he causeth all, b
ot
h small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding cou
nt
the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.


Six hundred threescore and six identifies Nero & the requirement to acknowledge Caesar, not Jesus is Lord.

Speculation about computer technology implies that knowledge, rather than wisdom, is required for understanding.

Further, if we allow our children to be chipped, they are not guilty of receiving the mark, but victims of their parents & the state.
9
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture i
nt
o the cup of his indignation; and he shall be torme
nt
ed with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:


Receiving the mark must be a conscious & deliberate act of rejection of the Gospel of Jesus. I do not consider modern technology to be relevant. Revelation was written to first C Christians, John's companion in tribulation. They needed the wisdom of God to understand, & to stand against the wiles of the devil.

This, of course, does not mean we are not to be concerned with receiving the mark. The principles of Scripture stand for all time.
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith u
nt
o the churches.

33
Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know n
ot
when the time is.

34
For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his serva
nt
s, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

35
Watch ye therefore: for ye know n
ot
when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

36
Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.

37
And what I say u
nt
o you I say u
nt
o all, Watch.

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Oldtimer, you make it sound like using computer technology and going paperless are evil in themselves - and they are not (though the Bible does teach that marking our bodies IS wrong in itself). Yes, each advancement in these types of technology take us one step closer to the final system. One thing to consider though: it is more than a cashless system or any kind of mark - it is giving voluntary allegiance to the antichrist and Satan.


No, computer technology and paperless aren't evil in themselves. Just as money, itself, isn't the root of all evil.

Computers are breeding dependence on them. Dependence on a device that relies on electricity to operate. Thus, dependence on the person who controls the switch. As a parallel, many younger folks aren't learning how to cook as their dependence on convenience food sources grows. If something happens to the convenience food supply chain (natural or man made) how will people feed themselves? Do they have a can opener in the pantry? Do they have a can in the pantry to open?

Many schools are no longer teaching children cursive writing skills. It's being replaced with technology classes. How long will it be before there's a generation who cannot read a copy of the original Constitution or handwritten notes in their grandmother's Bible? On another point, young folks can't make change at a cash register if it doesn't tell them the amount. Simple basic skills are being lost as dependence on technology grows. Is this breeding dependence on the beast as means of being independent cease to exist? We already have approximately half of this nation relying on a forerunner of the beast through their dependence on the government for their survival.

Yes, I understand the concept of voluntary obedience to satan. Also see how technology, among other things, is molding people into accepting the mark. Being a farm raised old timer, I'm equally at home in front of a wood cookstove / campfire and a microwave oven. How many, in the generations behind me know there's a real choice, an alternative, if the power company threatens to flip the switch if they don't follow orders? How many will think they must comply if they want to heat their dinner?

Regardless of the nature of the physical mark of the beast, the use of computer technology, like the love of money is steadly progressing us towards that end.

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