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The grammatical problem I see is that the verses plainly say that Messiah will be cut off after the 62 weeks which comes after the 7 weeks. It does not say that Messiah will be cut off in the middle of the 70th week.

Nowhere in the O.T. is the church referenced. That's why Paul called it a mystery. The Jews did not know nor foresee it.


Please pay careful attention to what the passage says. Verse 26 says the Messiah will be cut off after the 69th week, it does not say He will be cut off at the end of the 69th week.

As for the church in the OT, it is referenced many times. One example of which can be found in Jer. 31:31-34. Fellow Baptist John Gill recognizes this passage references the church as he says, "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord,.... This refers to Gospel times, as is clear from the quotation and application by the apostle, Hebrews 8:8." When the writer of Hebrews quoted Jer. 31:31-34 he summed it up by saying, "In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." (Heb. 8:13), thus recognizing that the New Covenant the Church is under is the covenant spoken of in Jer. 31. The writer of Hebrews once again hammers home the point that Jer. 31:31-34 is referencing the church in Heb. 10:11-17 when he explains that the New Covenant (spoken of in Jer.) is ratified by Christ's offering for all sins. Yes the church is mentioned in the OT, its just not nessisarily referred to as "the church".

Jer. 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

dblev

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The New Testament and the New Covenant are not the same thing. A testament requires the death of the testor. A covenant does not. The New Covenant primarily applies to Israel and the millenial kingdom when God's law coming out of the mountain of the Lord's house reaches from sea to sea, eveyone has knowledge of the Almighty, everyone mountain made low , every crooked path made straight, the desert blooms as a garden and the sin curse is at least partially removed. With the New Testament none of these things happened though it guarantees that someday they will occur.

I don't see anyplace in the gospels where Christ confirms the Old Testament with anyone for seven years. His ministry only lasted three and a half years and that wasn't to confirm the OT but to fulfill it.

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The New Testament and the New Covenant are not the same thing. A testament requires the death of the testor. A covenant does not. The New Covenant primarily applies to Israel and the millenial kingdom when God's law coming out of the mountain of the Lord's house reaches from sea to sea, eveyone has knowledge of the Almighty, everyone mountain made low , every crooked path made straight, the desert blooms as a garden and the sin curse is at least partially removed. With the New Testament none of these things happened though it guarantees that someday they will occur.

I don't see anyplace in the gospels where Christ confirms the Old Testament with anyone for seven years. His ministry only lasted three and a half years and that wasn't to confirm the OT but to fulfill it.


Whether you believe the NT and the NC are or are not the same thing is irrelevant. According to the writer of Hebrews we are now living under the New Covenant, the Covenant of Grace.

Please go back and read my prior posts, I never said Christ confirmed the Old Covenant for seven years. And I agree He fulfilled the ceremonial Law, we (the church) are continuing to fulfill the moral law.

One thing I wanted to ask you about your post, how do you know Christ's ministry lasted 3.5 years?

dblev

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The mark of the beast will be started after the antichrist is given control of earth by the ten kings who devour the earth. Rev17:16-17

Don't worry about credit cards or computer chips in your body. We will be caught up to heaven before the mark of the beast takes

place. But if you are not a Christian you have more to worry about than the mark.

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The New Testament and the New Covenant are not the same thing. A testament requires the death of the testor. A covenant does not. The New Covenant primarily applies to Israel and the millenial kingdom when God's law coming out of the mountain of the Lord's house reaches from sea to sea, eveyone has knowledge of the Almighty, everyone mountain made low , every crooked path made straight, the desert blooms as a garden and the sin curse is at least partially removed. With the New Testament none of these things happened though it guarantees that someday they will occur.

I don't see anyplace in the gospels where Christ confirms the Old Testament with anyone for seven years. His ministry only lasted three and a half years and that wasn't to confirm the OT but to fulfill it.


Hmm.

The 69 weeks expired at the baptism of Jesus, His ministry was for 3½ years personally and another 3½ by the apostles to the opening up of the gospel to the Jews. Note that Daniel does not anywhere state that a covenant would be made less still, broken, it says 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, Jesus was minister to the circumcised and he came to confirm the promises made to the fathers, that is the covenant. As I said on another thread, the prince who was to come was not the subject of the verse, the "he" refers back to Messiah, the prince. He caused the sacrifice to fail by His attoning death which rendered all other sacrifices void.

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Invicta said,"The 69 weeks expired at the baptism of Jesus, His ministry was for 3½ years personally and another 3½ by the apostles to the opening up of the gospel to the Jews."

Daniel 9:26a And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off,

When the Messiah or Jesus was cut off, the 62 weeks ended. The last week of years will begin with the signing of the covenant spoken of in Daniel 9:27.

Edited by Eric Stahl

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The 69 weeks expired at the baptism of Jesus, His ministry was for 3½ years personally and another 3½ by the apostles to the opening up of the gospel to the Jews.


The Messiah was cut off at the end of a week - not the middle of one. That covenant, and the "prince that shall come," is someone other than the Messiah.

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If you believe we are living in the thousand year kingdom, you must be very unhappy with the living conditions. My Bible says the days of a man will be as the days of a tree. There will be no weeds. The sun will not set and so on. Read Isaiah 65:17-25 to see some of the living conditions in the kingdom when Jesus will make the earth like new.
If you don't think we are in the kingdom, then you must believe there is a gap between the 70th week and the Kingdom.

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To Invicta,
At the blowing of the 7th trumpet judgment there will be war in heaven Revelation 12:7-14 the devil and the revolting angels will be cast to the earth where they are imprisioned with the antichrist and the kings of the earth for the last half of the tribulation.Isaiah24:23 That is why and when the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord and His Christ. Revelation 11:15
Edited by Eric Stahl

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The Messiah was cut off at the end of a week - not the middle of one. That covenant, and the "prince that shall come," is someone other than the Messiah.


The Messiah was cut off after the 69th week, (i.e. in the 70th week) the next verse tells us when, in the middle of the week, he caused the sacrifice to fail when he became the one sacrifice.

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Invicta said,"The 69 weeks expired at the baptism of Jesus, His ministry was for 3½ years personally and another 3½ by the apostles to the opening up of the gospel to the Jews."

Daniel 9:26a And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off,

When the Messiah or Jesus was cut off, the 62 weeks ended. The last week of years will begin with the signing of the covenant spoken of in Daniel 9:27.


You are keen on misquoting these scriptures. No mention of signing any covenant. but CONFIRMING THE COVENANT.

Ro 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises (that is the covenant promises) made unto the fathers:

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You are keen on misquoting these scriptures. No mention of signing any covenant. but CONFIRMING THE COVENANT.

Ro 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises (that is the covenant promises) made unto the fathers:

How do you believe he will confirm the covenant?

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How do you believe he will confirm the covenant?


By the Gospel - that's what the Covenant is all about.

Heb 13:20Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
21Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

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To Invicta,
At the blowing of the 7th trumpet judgment there will be war in heaven Revelation 12:7-14 the devil and the revolting angels will be cast to the earth where they are imprisioned with the antichrist and the kings of the earth for the last half of the tribulation.Isaiah24:23 That is why and when the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord and His Christ. Revelation 11:15


Eric, you're wasting your breath. They don't believe in a future Tribulation period.

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I believe in an ongoing tribulation on the church.

The tribulation of Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, refer the tribulation on the Jews in AD66-70. During this tribulation, the temple was destroyed, the city rased to the ground and Zion ploughed like a field by the Romans . The treasures of the temple were carted off to Rome, millions of Jews were cut open,crucified , or sold into slavery. So many slaves that the cost of a slave dropped by half. Those who had lately worn the holy garments of the high priesthood were cast naked into the streets and their bodies trampled upon. The house of archives, which held the genealogies of the Jews was burnt, so no-one could become a priest ever again.

Ezr 2:62 These sought their register among those that were reckoned by genealogy, but they were not found: therefore were they, as polluted, put from the priesthood.

Ne 7:64 These sought their register among those that were reckoned by genealogy, but it was not found: therefore were they, as polluted, put from the priesthood.

It truly was "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.Mt 24:21 And most of this destruction was caused by the Jews, not by the Romans. Furing the Roman siege, there was a civil war going on in the city with at least three oposing factions fighting it out. Titus atteempted to get the jews to cease the war and return to their legitimate government, Roman government and save the city and the temple, but the Jews kept fighting it amongst themselves. Eventually the Roman troops destroyed the temple against the express orders of Titus, thus fulfilling Dan 9:26. It was the people of Titus who destroyed the sanctuary, not the prince.

Any one attempting to become a priest in your future temple would be poluted.

There are those in the church who say the church will not go through tribulation. What world are they living in.

Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
Ac 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
Ro 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

The church has always suffered tribulation when it has been faithful to the Lord. I was speaking recently of one massacre in France at Wassy, of Vassy. Christiams were meeting in a grange (barn) when the catholics attacked and murdered 78 of them. I have visited the museum which is in the hugen church. It was very disappointing, the guardienne, when she heard we were English put on a video with very churchy music and then went outside for a cigarette. A year or two later I picked up a book on the massacre, and the wars that gollowed, at the Calvin museum in Noyon, which was much more intreresting. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Vassy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Vassy Ten years later was the much greater massacre of St Bartholomew. when tens of thousands were massacred,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Bartholomew%27s_Day_massacre

In the South of France in a town called Aigues Mortes was a prison known as the tower of Constance. Women were sent there for life, for just attending a service, men were sent as galley slaves for life, and any pastor or preacher cauf=ght, was sentenced to be broken on the wheel and then hung, a roll of 20 drums, preventing them from being heard if they tried to encourage others. This went on till just before the revolution in 1789.

I ask you ladies, would your faith stand firm in such circumstances? One lady freed when the persecution ended was 52 and was sent to Constance aged 8 after attending a service with her mother. Gents, would your faith stand firm if the were to be sent to the galleys if attending a meeting? One of the last galley slaves freed was 82. Pastors and preachers, would you stand firm if you were liable to have your body broken on the wheel and then hung?

Christians are facing tribulation in many Muslim and Hindoo countries today.

"In the world ye shall have tribulation:" Jesus

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In other words, over 80% of Revelation doesn't actually mean what it says.

1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and
he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John.
2Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

It seems you have difficulty reading & understanding the opening verses. If you think the time is yet future, after all Christians have been "raptured" from the earth, who is the blessing for?

Why did Jesus convey the revelation with such urgency if the time was 2000+ years away? How can anyone keep those things which are written therein if it's all for a distant future dispensation.

Take off your Scofield blinders & read the Bible without "help."

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1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and
he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John.
2Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

It seems you have difficulty reading & understanding the opening verses. If you think the time is yet future, after all Christians have been "raptured" from the earth, who is the blessing for?

Why did Jesus convey the revelation with such urgency if the time was 2000+ years away? How can anyone keep those things which are written therein if it's all for a distant future dispensation.

Take off your Scofield blinders & read the Bible without "help."


Already dealt with this in my article on Preterism.

Here's a cartoon for your enjoyment, I think it demonstrates how I feel about most of your theology:


anti-calvinist.jpg


Have a nice day! Edited by Rick Schworer

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That caricature is a monstrous misrepresentation of the Gospel of free & sovereign grace people nicknamed "calvinist" preach.


No, I think it cuts through all the junk and puts the truth of what you believe right down there for everyone to understand.

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No, I think it cuts through all the junk and puts the truth of what you believe right down there for everyone to understand.


All have sinned and come short of the glory of God and The Soul that sinneth, it shall die. Therefore we are all predestined to Hell. If Christ had not saved us that would have been our lot.

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Job 38:12–13, 15, 22–24 KJV

12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the
dayspring to know his place;
13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

172 AMERICA’S LAST WARNING

15 And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm
shall be broken.
22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,
23 Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?
24 By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth?


God describes what He is going to do to judge the wicked during the time of trouble and the day of battle. Job 38:13–15 tells us that He will take hold of the ends of the earth to slow the rotation in such a way that light will be withheld from the wicked.

Revelation 16:10–11 KJV

10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain.
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

Isaiah 60:18–22 KJV

18 Violence shall no more be heard in thy land, wasting nor destruction within thy borders; but thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy gates Praise.
19 The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the Lord shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.
20 Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the Lord shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.
21 Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.
22 A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the Lord will hasten it in his time.
—Isaiah 60:18–22 KJV

178 AMERICA’S LAST WARNING

Please think about the sun and moon mentioned in verses nineteen and twenty. When people look into the heavens from Israel, there is still no light from the sun and moon even though they are in their heavenly positions. The permanent solar eclipse will start near the end of the tribulation period and last through the kingdom age for one thousand years. America will become an ice-covered land with no people.

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