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God is just. God won't allow the devil to mark His people. God is in full control' date=' even while the devil seems to be running things on earth. Just as babies are in the care of God today, they will be in the care of God then.


Are you meaning they haven't reached the age of accountability? Because that's the only SURE "protection" I know of. Babies and children are abused all kinds of ways today. They are NOW at the mercy of wicked adults. Do you have Biblical proof that babies or small children will not be forceably 'marked"??



9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

Suppose such a person has the "mark of the beast" but refuses to worship him? Read the word carefully.....each and every single word is put there for a REASON. The Bible uses the conjunction. "and" . That looks to me like BOTH must be done.

Also notice that other single word "receive". When you "receive" something, isn't it usually done willingly?
Of course, I would advise refusing BOTH.

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Folks must have the mark to buy and sell. Babies don't do that.

Beyond that, Scripture is clear that God is perfectly fair and just. If God has declared all those who have the mark will go to Hell then we can rest assured that only those willing to accept the mark will have the mark. Even in the midst of the Tribulation and all the devil puts forth, God is still in control with boundaries set the devil and his minions cannot cross.

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dblev,

There is no Scripture or even common sense that tells me that Revelation MUST be taken symbolically. I'm sure some people thought that many of the O.T. prophecies were "symbolic" too but they came to pass anyway. I'm happy to take God at His Word and fully believe these things will come to pass.


What do you mean "There is no common sense that tells you that Revelation MUST be taken symbolically"? Revelation is Apocalyptic literature, and this style of literature is know for its symbolic elements. In fact we see this style of literature being used in the book of Daniel, and even dispensationalist have no problem taking many of Daniel's prophecies symbolically.

dblev

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The Mark of the Beast is most certainly literal just as the Devil is a literal being. There are some figurative, symbolic things in scripture of course, but there are some very real events, beings, powers and things to come which are most assuredly real, tangible and literal. The unfortunate reality is that the Mark of the Beast is one of the very real and most horrible "yet to come" events. Thank goodness the Rapture is "Pre-tribulation according to scripture" and I won't be here. As for babies - small children, the Mark must be "taken" as in accepted. Those who do not willingly accept it are killed via beheading ( A stinking muslim party favorite ). Children are one of the great 'unknowns' but we do know that in many scriptures God himself directed the killing of countless thousands of them, babies, animals and small children.... [better just to remember that God is God and his plans, thoughts and will are not subject to our sensibilities and opinions]

What will happen to the children in the trib as it relates to the Mark of the Beast? Hard question....but one thing is sure, God is not going to permit Satan to go round branding children who are unwitting & unknowing and thereby unable to "take the mark" of matter of choice. They may be killed wholesale, but physical death is preferrable to Hell anyday. Of a certainty the events of that 7 yrs will result in a lot of children & adults getting killed in various events.....

A horrible time that will be - thanks be to God for his mercy and goodness that he has made a way for even those born therein to make it to Him!

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Explain this? If the mark of the beast is to be taken in a wooden literal sense, then how would Johns intended audience (seven churches of Asia) be able to identify the beast as Rev. 13:18 says they would be able to if the beast is some antichrist who will appear 1940+ years later. Remember, John told them (not us) that with understanding they would be able to identify the beast by calculating his number, if this were to be some man who lived after the year 2000 then John would have been lying to the seven churches.

Rev. 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666.

dblev

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Explain this? If the mark of the beast is to be taken in a wooden literal sense, then how would Johns intended audience (seven churches of Asia) be able to identify the beast as Rev. 13:18 says they would be able to if the beast is some antichrist who will appear 1940+ years later. Remember, John told them (not us) that with understanding they would be able to identify the beast by calculating his number, if this were to be some man who lived after the year 2000 then John would have been lying to the seven churches.

Rev. 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666.

dblev


You are supposed to use only the King James Bible on this site.........
This is how it should read........

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Is the word, "calculate" the same as "count"?

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dblev wrote:
Explain this? If the mark of the beast is to be taken in a wooden literal sense, then how would Johns intended audience (seven churches of Asia) be able to identify the beast as Rev. 13:18 says they would be able to if the beast is some antichrist who will appear 1940+ years later. Remember, John told them (not us) that with understanding they would be able to identify the beast by calculating his number, if this were to be some man who lived after the year 2000 then John would have been lying to the seven churches.


Obviously, you see only one intended audience, Jesus spoke of three. Notice:

Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Jesus speaks of the past, and the present, which would include the seven churches, but he also spoke of a future audience who would be giving ear to this revelation, those reading, "...the things which shall be hereafter." Since the book of the Revelation cannot be taken in a chronological sense, we can gather that though those in the seven churches would know this mystery man would be marked by 666, those who would actually be living during the things hereafter would be able to personally apply it.

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Obviously, you see only one intended audience, Jesus spoke of three. Notice:

Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Jesus speaks of the past, and the present, which would include the seven churches, but he also spoke of a future audience who would be giving ear to this revelation, those reading, "...the things which shall be hereafter." Since the book of the Revelation cannot be taken in a chronological sense, we can gather that though those in the seven churches would know this mystery man would be marked by 666, those who would actually be living during the things hereafter would be able to personally apply it.


Actually Rev. 1:19 is speaking about the content that will be revealed in this Book and has nothing to do with revealing who the audience is. The intended audience for this Book is introduced in John 1:4 were John announces his audience by saying "John to the seven churches which are in Asia". He never identifies any other audience after that.

dblev

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Keep in mind the 70th week of Daniel (The great tribulation). Has to do with Israel' date=' not the Church. John was the prophet, the one God chose to write this prophecy down.[/quote']

deputydog i'm sorry i'm going to have to disagree with you about the 70th week of Daniel. The 70 weeks have already been fulfilled in Christ. He is the one who confirmed a covenant with many. We celebrate that covenant he established with us everytime we take comunion; remember Christ's words at the last supper "Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you." (Luke 22:20). Furthermore Christ was the one who put an end to sacrifice and offering by being the ultimate sacrifice for all mankind.

dblev

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What you are saying doesn't make sense. Was Christ crucified in the midst of the New Covenant? The New Testament (not New Covenat, they are two different things) didn't start UNTIL CHRIST WAS CRUCIFIED. What makes you think that the covenat of Daniel 9:24,27 was the New Covenant?

So by your reasoning:

1) Christ established the New Covenant (Testament) at the beginning of his ministry for seven years.
2) He was cut off in the midst of the New Covenant.
3) The New Covenant (Testament) ended 3 1/2 years after Christ's crucifixion.
4) Christ spreads abominations upon the New Covenant (Testament).
5) The New Covenant (Testament) contained sacrifices and oblations.

or...

1) Christ's ministry starts 483 years after the Cyrus' decree.
2) He is crucified after 486 1/2 years.
3) The "prince of the people" (the Antichrist, or perhaps Titus or whoever) confirms the covenant (New Covenant?) for seven years or at the beginning of Christs ministry but cuts off the sacrifices at the time of Christ's crucifixion or in 33AD.

What you are saying doesn't make sense. You are assuming that the "covenant" mentioned in the prophecy is the New Testament when it isn't.

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What you are saying doesn't make sense. Was Christ crucified in the midst of the New Covenant? The New Testament (not New Covenat, they are two different things) didn't start UNTIL CHRIST WAS CRUCIFIED. What makes you think that the covenat of Daniel 9:24,27 was the New Covenant?

So by your reasoning:

1) Christ established the New Covenant (Testament) at the beginning of his ministry for seven years.
2) He was cut off in the midst of the New Covenant.
3) The New Covenant (Testament) ended 3 1/2 years after Christ's crucifixion.
4) Christ spreads abominations upon the New Covenant (Testament).
5) The New Covenant (Testament) contained sacrifices and oblations.

or...

1) Christ's ministry starts 483 years after the Cyrus' decree.
2) He is crucified after 486 1/2 years.
3) The "prince of the people" (the Antichrist, or perhaps Titus or whoever) confirms the covenant (New Covenant?) for seven years or at the beginning of Christs ministry but cuts off the sacrifices at the time of Christ's crucifixion or in 33AD.

What you are saying doesn't make sense. You are assuming that the "covenant" mentioned in the prophecy is the New Testament when it isn't.


My first question is; if the New Testament and the New Covenant are not the same thing then please explain to me the difference?

Neither of your explinations quite match my view. The covenant Christ established in His ministry was the New Covenant; however, the covenant He put an end to was the Old Covenant. No longer are we bound by the rites and rituals of the Old Covenant because Christ put an end to it, and replaced it with a better covenant.

As for which decree did the 70 weeks start counting from, in my view it was Artaxerxes. Cyrus' decree happened way to early. Artaxerxes decree allowed Ezra to take some of the Jews back to Jerusalem from Babylon and institute some reforms. If you measure from 457 BC forward you come to 33 AD which would affirm the seventy sevens would be fulfilled at the time of Christ.

dblev

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Making Christ the author and originator of Daniel's 70th week is to set upon the Son of God the title of the Anti-Christ - a doctrine of a devils. Were I a mod here, I would immediately delete such a hellish & foolish comment before allowing it to be read and possibly believed by weak and unlearned young Christians.

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Making Christ the author and originator of Daniel's 70th week is to set upon the Son of God the title of the Anti-Christ - a doctrine of a devils. Were I a mod here' date=' I would immediately delete such a hellish & foolish comment before allowing it to be read and possibly believed by weak and unlearned young Christians.[/quote']

Pastor Harrison, I dont think you quite understood what I said.

dblev

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You said that Christ fulfilled all the 70 weeks. Daniel 9 says the last week has someone making a deal for "one week", breaking the deal midway, stopping sacrifices, etc. for the PURPOSE of spreading abominations. How can you say this is fulfilled in Christ?

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Making Christ the author and originator of Daniel's 70th week is to set upon the Son of God the title of the Anti-Christ - a doctrine of a devils. Were I a mod here' date=' I would immediately delete such a hellish & foolish comment before allowing it to be read and possibly believed by weak and unlearned young Christians.[/quote']

:amen: Seems to be as much heresy as truth on this board of late.

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You said that Christ fulfilled all the 70 weeks. Daniel 9 says the last week has someone making a deal for "one week"' date=' breaking the deal midway, stopping sacrifices, etc. for the PURPOSE of spreading abominations. How can you say this is fulfilled in Christ?[/quote']

This verse does not say someone will make a deal for "one week" and break it halfway. What it says is that He (Messiah) will confirm a covenant with many for one week (this is the New Covenant), and in the midst of the week cause sacrifice and offerings to cease (this is the end of the Old Covenant). Christ did not end the New Covenant, He ended the Old Covenant.

Dan. 9:27 And he (Messiah from verse 26) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease

dblev

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You haven't fully explained all of verses 26 and 27... There is no way Christ is the fulfillment of every prophecy contained therein.


Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.



After the 7 "weeks" (periods of 7 - we understand these as years now) and 62 weeks, Christ is cut off. Then the people of the prince that shall come - the Romans - destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in A.D. 70. That area has been desolate for nearly 2000 years until 1948 when Israel became a nation again and has started returning, all in fulfillment of prophecy.

The prince that shall come is of the people that destroyed Jerusalem back in A.D. 70 so this "prince" is going to be Roman or perhaps European. He is the one who will confirm a covenant for 7 years and then stop the sacrifices midway. He will make it desolate for the purpose of spreading abominations and this continues to the end [of the tribulation]. And then something predetermined (the judgments revealed in Revelation) will be poured out.


God told Daniel that his book was to be "sealed up" until the time of the end. The book was still available to read so obviously it means that it won't be understood until the time of the end. Daniel and Revelation go together and we in these end times can see (or should be able to see) so many of the prophecies being fulfilled in these latter days.

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Let us let SCRIPTURE define what is the Covenant & what is the Testament:

Hebrews 8, KJV- 6But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:9Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.12For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.13In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 10, KJV- 9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.11And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;13From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.15Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Now, we must remember that the Book of hebrews was written to the Hebrews, hence its title-but GOD made it part of His Holy Writ that He intends for ALL to read-n-heed. And we must remember that JESUS made the ONE SUPREME SACRIFICE FOR ALL. thus, this Covenant is extended to ALL PEOPLE, not only the Israelis. OUR part is to COME TO CHRIST IN BELIEF BY FAITH, IN REPENTANCE, & IN OBEDIENCE, then to live our lives as a public testimony of our belief in & submission to JESUS CHRIST.

Now, for the Testament: Remember, a testament is a WILL, an expression of conviction or determination, a statement of what is to become of one's property after one's death, a statement which has no legal weight while the testator is alive!

Matthew 26:28, KJV-For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mark 14:24, KJV-And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.

Luke 22:20, KJV-Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

Corinthians 11:25, KJV-After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

2 Corinthians 3:6, KJV-Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

2 Corinthians 3:14, KJV-But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.



Hebrews 7, KJV- 19For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.20And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:21(For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)22By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.23And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:24But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.25Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Hebrews 9, KJV- 15And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.16For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

So we see JESUS is mediator, both of the new Covenant, & new Testament, which is actually His own will & testament. The boox of the Bible, beginning with Matthew, are actually boox about this Testament of Christ's.

And this Testament is-"By My death upon the cross, I paid the penalty once and for all for the sins of all, past, present, & future. Believing this, believing I rose from the dead forever after 3 days & nights from when I died, believing that I am Son of God as well as God with My Father & the Holy Spirit, believing I am the ONLY Savior from your sentence for your sins, is the ONLY way to be accepted by My Father, the Supreme Being. I received this office from My father by My death, which also placed this New testament into effect."

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What will the actual marka the beast be? I believe it will be some kinda physical mark or device placed in the skin, either the right hand or forehead of the recipients. (Not gonna get into any silly argument of whether it's "in" or "on"!)

You've prolly hearda the Florida co. which claims it can place all yer personal info, SSN, account #s, etc. into a microchip which can be imbedded into the skin & be readily accessible to scanning.

Now, whether or not such a device will be used for the actual mark is still a matter of conjecture, LET THIS BE A WARNING-THE MARK OF THE BEAST CAN NOW BE GIVEN WITH EXISTING TECHNOLOGY! Please, under no circumstances, accept the implanting of any such devices in your bodies! (NOT counting pacemakers, diabetic insulin pumps,other medical devices!)

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Amen, Bro. Roby, regardless to the finer points, we do have a pretty good idea that we are closer to the end times now than ever before. Now the head of Dept. of Homeland Security is calling people like us "right wing extremists." Yikes! Enter, Baraks Brown Shirts! :eek

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You haven't fully explained all of verses 26 and 27... There is no way Christ is the fulfillment of every prophecy contained therein.

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


After the 7 "weeks" (periods of 7 - we understand these as years now) and 62 weeks, Christ is cut off. Then the people of the prince that shall come - the Romans - destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in A.D. 70. That area has been desolate for nearly 2000 years until 1948 when Israel became a nation again and has started returning, all in fulfillment of prophecy.

The prince that shall come is of the people that destroyed Jerusalem back in A.D. 70 so this "prince" is going to be Roman or perhaps European. He is the one who will confirm a covenant for 7 years and then stop the sacrifices midway. He will make it desolate for the purpose of spreading abominations and this continues to the end [of the tribulation]. And then something predetermined (the judgments revealed in Revelation) will be poured out.

God told Daniel that his book was to be "sealed up" until the time of the end. The book was still available to read so obviously it means that it won't be understood until the time of the end. Daniel and Revelation go together and we in these end times can see (or should be able to see) so many of the prophecies being fulfilled in these latter days.


The dispensational interpretation of the seventy weeks of Daniel has problems grammatically. First, we must look at the subjects of the sentences in the final paragraph. In the first sentence in verse 26, the subject is the "Messiah". In the next sentence the subject is the "people"; the "prince" is not the subject, but rather it is the object of the prepositional phrase ?the prince that shall come?. Since ?He? in verse 27 is the subject, ?He? could only be referencing back to one of the subjects mentioned earlier in the paragraph, which would be either ?people? or ?Messiah?. Seeing how "He" is singular, not plural, it would be unlikely that it would be referencing the plural subject which is "people"; furthermore, ?people? is not the main subject talked about in this passage. "He" in verse 27 is no doubt referencing the "Messiah"; they are both singular for one, and for two the ?Messiah? is the main subject being spoken about in this passage. Grammatically it?s impossible that "He" is referencing the "prince", because a subject can never be referencing the object of a prepositional phrase. This means it was Christ who established a covenant at the beginning of His ministry, the New Covenant, and in the middle of the final week He put an end to the Old Covenant with His death on the cross. As for the people of the prince in verse 26, they would be the Romans; the prince would be the leader of the people (the Romans) which would have been Titus who lead the Romans to conquer Jerusalem in 70 AD. This sentence seems to be looking forward past the 490 years, to the same time period as the second sentence in verse 27, 70 AD. When all the evidence is considered from this passage it is clear that the 490 years extends from the time Jerusalem was rebuilt until three and a half years following Christ?s death and resurrection, which is about the time of the first martyr of the faith (Stephen) and the beginning of Paul?s ministry to the gentiles.

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah (S)be cut off, but not for himself: and the people (S)of the prince (O) that shall come(PP) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.(Where?s the mention of a plain literal 2000+ year gap?) 27 And he (S) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

darras

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The grammatical problem I see is that the verses plainly say that Messiah will be cut off after the 62 weeks which comes after the 7 weeks. It does not say that Messiah will be cut off in the middle of the 70th week.

Nowhere in the O.T. is the church referenced. That's why Paul called it a mystery. The Jews did not know nor foresee it.

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Amen' date=' Bro. Roby, regardless to the finer points, we do have a pretty good idea that we are closer to the end times now than ever before. Now the head of Dept. of Homeland Security is calling people like us "right wing extremists." Yikes! Enter, Baraks Brown Shirts! :eek[/quote']

That's the difference 'tween us Christians & others-we have that BLESSED HOPE, & a CLEAR WARNING not to take the mark of the beast! I'm sure we will recognize that mark if we're still here when it begins.

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