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I'm not saying Christians are going to escape persecution. The ones you mention, had they taken a stand for Christ, would have been given the strength they needed to endure their persecution as others were. Many didn't have a choice as their villages were raided, men, women, and children were tied into "balls" and rolled down mountainsides.

I don't know what the mark is, but Revelation clearly state a person is given a choice--they are not forced to take it. This isn't something you can recant for the sake of saving your life. If you reject the mark, you will be killed or you will possibly starve to death. If you take it, you are not saved. The Bible is clear that those who take the mark are not God's children.

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I am not completely sure of the grammar construction in Revelation 14:9 but the conjunctions 'and' lead me to believe that it is not just the mark of the beast in question but also the worshipping of the man and his image in conjunction with the mark.

Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand.

And the same conjunctions are listed in Revelation 20:4

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Therefore I would not be to quick to condemn those who take the mark to hell. While the mark could be given in ignorance to a child or taken in ignorance not realizing the ramifications of the action. Worship leads me to believe that the beast has sold himself to the participant as being god (small g) and his image is likely a small statue like an idol.

God's mercy endures forever and if it were to change during the tribulation how can we say that God is immutable or unchangeable but if someone worships the beast as God then they have rejected God and are therefore cast into hell not as a condition of what they believed but as a condition of rejectiong Christ?

Psalms 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

I do hope this does not turn into a can of worms it is simply a thought to consider. :ideas:

Orvals

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No can of worms at all, very good point. There is no danger in considering these things. As one brother put it, there is enough mystery involved in the Revelation that we dare not make any iron clad theories. Should we study and speculate? Indeed we should, I believe this is going to happen in our lifetime. Good point sbrethren.

Bro. Ben

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I

Psalms 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

Orvals


I agree with your thoughts, but this verse stood out to me. Very scary when you apply it to the state of our nation and its constant rejection of God...

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orvals, thanks for pointing out those conjunctions. I've often wondered about young children and mentally impaired people who aren't able to make an informed decision and who really wouldn't understand what they will be required to do. Maybe God will have mercy on them. Who knows, they might be the ones who go into the Millennium just like those who were 20 and under were allowed to live to enter Canaan.

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I am not completely sure of the grammar construction in Revelation 14:9 but the conjunctions 'and' lead me to believe that it is not just the mark of the beast in question but also the worshipping of the man and his image in conjunction with the mark.

Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand.

And the same conjunctions are listed in Revelation 20:4

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Therefore I would not be to quick to condemn those who take the mark to hell. While the mark could be given in ignorance to a child or taken in ignorance not realizing the ramifications of the action. Worship leads me to believe that the beast has sold himself to the participant as being god (small g) and his image is likely a small statue like an idol.

God's mercy endures forever and if it were to change during the tribulation how can we say that God is immutable or unchangeable but if someone worships the beast as God then they have rejected God and are therefore cast into hell not as a condition of what they believed but as a condition of rejectiong Christ?

Psalms 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

I do hope this does not turn into a can of worms it is simply a thought to consider. :ideas:

Orvals


Good post. It could be that very thing. I hope no one here is taking a sigh of relief because of it... :Green . Some day when I have even more time to look at this I'll look begin from this perspective. Thanks.
:goodpost:

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A lot of Christians can't resist a double quarter pounder with cheese when it's in front of them you think they'd be able to resist the Antichrist and his mark? This stuff about "true" believers (like there is such a thing as false believers) wouldn't take the mark is silly.

No Christians will go through the tribulation. The church will be raptured beforehand. So they'll be NO Christians in the tribulation. Those saved during the tribulation will not be part of the body of Christ (the church) therefore they are able to LOSE their salvation (like King Saul) if they don't endure to the end and if they take the mark.

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[quote="FeatherDuster"]But what about the witnesses? Are they Christians? God has some that are "left behind."[/quote]

Anyone lefted behind was not a Christian. The two witnesses will most likely be Moses and Elijah. Both Jews.

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Anyone lefted behind was not a Christian. The two witnesses will most likely be Moses and Elijah. Both Jews.

:goodpost::amen::amen: I agree that the Lord's word says just that! In Christ Pixiedust

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Pixie, we all hope the pre-trib method is true, but if it is not, we'd better be ready. The current state of our Americanized Christianity is weak and faithless. If the "Left Behind" theology turns out to be everyone, then we are going to have to do some building of our faith. The body of Christ is all who are redeemd and belong to the Lord. Anyone pre, mid, post who belong to the Lord (saved) are just like all the just who live by faith. There is no works salvation anywhere in the Bible. We must walk by faith and keep oour eyes open.

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Hi PreacherBen

I think your correct as far as getting ready and the faith building will come regardless of the tribulation time. I believe the Bible is crystal clear on Pre-trib. Ill not rehash this issue as I know you study hard and know the positions of the different views. This country has turned from God. I think our world wide missions is what keeps his long suffering with us at this time. (Just my opinion). I think before the Church is raptured at the beginning of the great tribulation this country is going to face persecutions as many of our betheren do over seas.

I just read of a pakistani girl who si 20 yrs old and saved. She is looking at life in prision for tearing a page from a Koran. Our turn is comming.

God bless and as my Pastor used to say..."keep looking up, Jesus is coming soon" are we ready? :smile

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In a response that takes us a little way apart from the original post I have thought many times in the past few years about true mormons who try to keep six months supply of food in their homes and what effect that will have on those who are redeemed during the tribulation period. As a matter of fact my wife and I are planning 'during our garage renovation' in placing packets of dried seeds and canned goods within our garage walls trusting that omniscient and omnipresent Lord will use them to help believers during the tribulation period. As odd as it seems perhaps someone will read this post during the tribulation period and know that there is a possibilty that within the walls of our home God may have provided help for food and hope for the despondent to continue on.

orvals

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When we built our house (2008) we built in 2 seperate pantries. The kitchen pantry for daily use, and the main pantry for storage. We are growing a huge garden this year and canning all we can (no pun intended.) We are also looking to build a root cellar. This is something we discuss alot at home.

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We must be carful before we start turning the mark of the beast into a physical sign; when we do this we risk falling into the same trap the Pharisees fell into by misinterpret Biblical symbolism as literal. In Deut. 11:18 God tells the people of Israel to tie His Words on their hands and foreheads, and that?s exactly what the Pharisees did. The Pharisees took this passage literal wearing phylacteries, and in Mat. 23:5 Jesus criticized them because they missed the whole point of what the Scripture was communication. God did not intent for them to literally tie His Words on their hands and forehead, rather His intent was that they know His Word (represented by the forehead), and do His Word (represented by the hand). The two marks in Revelation, the Seal of God (Rev. 7:3) and the Mark of the beast, have the same symbolism as Deut 11:18; they symbolize a persons world view and actions, and by their world view and actions we can tell whether one identifies with the beast, or with the Lamb.

The question often arises what does the number 666 mean? In verse 18 John informs the 7 churches that with wisdom they can calculate the number of the beast, his number is 666. There is only one first century candidate that would clearly stand out to the 7 churches as the personification of the beast, and that would be Nero Caesar. Using the alpha-numeric system John would have been able to convey to the early church the identity of the beast without the beast being aware of it. When the first century Jewish Christian would transliterated Nero Caesar into Hebrew his name is nrwn qsr; the numeric value of each letter is n-50, r-200, w-6, n-50, q-100, s-60, r-200 and when you add each of these letters together the sum total comes out to 666, the number of the beast. With this evidence in mind it seems quite clear that the seven churches would have seen Nero Caesar as the first century manifestation of the beast.

dblev

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The two marks in Revelation, the Seal of God (Rev. 7:3) and the Mark of the beast, have the same symbolism as Deut 11:18; they symbolize a persons world view and actions, and by their world view and actions we can tell whether one identifies with the beast, or with the Lamb.




So without this "world view" no one will be able to buy and sell? I don't think so.

The language is specific: He causes all to receive a mark in their right hand or forehead. No one can buy or sell without it. Why would you allegorize this?


Rev. 13:16-And he causeth all, both small and great

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So without this "world view" no one will be able to buy and sell? I don't think so.

The language is specific: He causes all to receive a mark in their right hand or forehead. No one can buy or sell without it. Why would you allegorize this?


Rev. 13:16-And he causeth all, both small and great

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"When the plain sense make common sense, seek no other sense ." The "mark" was in their right hand or forehead. Though I guess by some stretch this could be symbolic (I don't have the corner on interpretation,) dismissing a literal mark is of equal or greater danger. If it is a literal mark and those who have been taught otherwise are required to take "the mark," they could end up in hell because they did not reject it. I'm not wanting to open a theological can of worms over were they saved, were they lost, simply give this serious implications of teaching that the mark is not literal.

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The mark is literal and it will probably be a "supernatural" mark like the seal that the 144,000 receive in their foreheads from God. Except this mark comes from the devil. I don't believe it will be a chip. This sounds to me like another attempt to symbolize things in Revelation. Another example would be saying the locusts from the bottomless pit are helicopters coming out of an extinct volcano. Oh, yeah man, this has been taught too. Whatever it is the person who recieves it won't be able to remove it.

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But it doesn't say that. That idea is someone's attempt to explain away what they think can't be literal. There is no Scripture to support this idea.


Baker

You must remember that Revelation is Apocalyptic literature, and thus much of it is to be taken symbolically. It is very possible that not being able to buy or sell without the mark could indicate that those who do not conform to the ways and ideas of the beast could experiance economic hardships. This view is by no means a stretch.

dblev

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When I was a kid on the ranch, we had "marked" cattle with little notches cut in their ears, or plastic tags. This was done to show who the OWNER of the cow was. When the Antichrist comes on the scene as an all powerful totalitarian dictator, he will claim 'ownership'. I think by willingly taking that mark in your forehead, you will be proclaiming. "I submit myself to the antichrist and the devil". And by taking that mark in your hand, you are saying "I do the devil's bidding".
Given our present technology, and for it to be a permanent mark, this would most likely be either a brand, some kind of tattoo, or an embeded microchip. An embeded microchip could be a 'mark' because it can be 'seen' or 'read' by a scanner. But it could be something not yet invented.

Babies?
What if the Beast comes on the scene and your baby grandson, or grand daughter gets "marked"? Would they be doomed to Hell?
16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Force
What if a person is constrained by force, held down against his/her will and given the mark?

Worship
They might be able force a baby or very small child to take the 'mark'; but can a baby 'worship'?
Suppose your grandbaby is born after the beginning of the Great Tribulation, is given the 'mark', then later, when he/she is old enough, REFUSES to worship the Beast and the Image?

"And"
Doesn't it say you have to "receive" the mark AND worship the beast? So would that child be doomed to Hell, being he has a "mark of the beast" in his hand or forhead? What if he/she REFUSES to worship him? The Bible uses the word "and".

9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

So would that child be doomed to Hell, being he has a "mark of the beast" in his hand or forhead? Or a man or woman marked by force? What if taht person REFUSES to worship the Beast or the image? The Bible uses the word "and".

Just thinking again :hide

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God is just. God won't allow the devil to mark His people. God is in full control, even while the devil seems to be running things on earth. Just as babies are in the care of God today, they will be in the care of God then.

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dblev,

There is no Scripture or even common sense that tells me that Revelation MUST be taken symbolically. I'm sure some people thought that many of the O.T. prophecies were "symbolic" too but they came to pass anyway. I'm happy to take God at His Word and fully believe these things will come to pass.

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