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Anyone born again in Christ, regardless of when that occurs, will forever be in Christ.

The verses quoted are referring to the reward given to those who heed the word of the Lord and the consequences of those who don't. Those who obey the Lord are truly His while those who refuse to obey the Lord prove they are not His. This is taught throughout Scripture. There is no special teaching of limited salvation for those born again during tribulation.

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Anyone born again in Christ, regardless of when that occurs, will forever be in Christ.

The verses quoted are referring to the reward given to those who heed the word of the Lord and the consequences of those who don't. Those who obey the Lord are truly His while those who refuse to obey the Lord prove they are not His. This is taught throughout Scripture. There is no special teaching of limited salvation for those born again during tribulation.


Right on, limited salvation is teaching commandments of men for commandments of God, Teaching that the tribulations spoken of in Revelation, 7 years of tribulation, 3 & 1/2 half years of pure tribulation them 3 & 1/2 years of great tribulations has already happened is teaching commandments of men for commandments of God.

They stay on this type of teachings quite steady, I suppose hoping to win converts, that is hoping to lead even saved people into their false teachings.

So sad.

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If the church goes through the tribulation than a born again believer can lose his salvation. Period. I don't need to take any verses out of context. The problem is that nobody here believes what the verses are saying. If they don't fit your theology then you force them to fit it by making it say what it isn't saying. This is human nature and we all do it.
OK - let's look at those Scriptures in context.

Matthew 25:

[29] For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
[30] And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

That is a saved man losing his salvation and getting tossed into hell.

Where does Jesus refer to him as "saved?" The parable is of a man giving responsibility to his servants. 2 are faithful & one totally rejects his lord's instruction. That man was not a true believer. Sadly there are plenty of hirelings in the church leadership today - & are worse than the man in the parable - they waste the Lord's money by using the offerings for themselves.

Matthew 24

[50] The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
[51] And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

That is a saved man who did not endure unto the end of the tribulation getting tossed in hell.
Again, where does Jesus refer to him as "saved?" The Lord expects his servants to serve him. It is impossible for a "saved man" to behave is such a way:
48
But and if that evil serva
nt
shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49
And shall begin to smite his fellowserva
nt
s, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

And where is Jesus speaking specifically of "The Tribulation?"

Please, don't try telling me it isn't. At least the Arminians believe the passages when they read it. They just apply it to the wrong group of people.
The Arminian "gospel" - make your decision; sign this decision card; say the salvation prayer - then you can get on with life in the knowledge that "once saved, always saved." What did Paul say?

What shall we say then? Shall we co
nt
inue in sin, that grace may abound?

2
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3
Know ye n
ot
, that so many of us as were baptized i
nt
o Jesus Christ were baptized i
nt
o his death?

4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism i
nt
o death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.


You folks who believe the church will be raptured out before the tribulation have to admit this is the only way to handle these passages
I can't speak for those who believe that - the Jerusalem church wasn't "raptured out" but heeded their Lord's warning to flee teh city BEFORE the trib, when they saw the signs.
If the church is gone along with the abiding presence of the Comforter then so is eternal security.
If "the Comforter" abandons the redeemed people of God, the promises, then Jesus' promises have failed.

16
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you an
ot
her Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

We are secure via our union with the body of Christ. The tribulation saint has no such promise. If the church is complete and removed from this planet then there is nothing to guarantee the eternal security of the believer after the rapture. If so then why rapture the church at all if there is no difference? It's a different economy and different group of people being dealt with by God.
Weird thinking! The whole idea of "tribulation saints" as a special group not part of the body is utterly foreign to Scripture.

If you believe the church will go through the tribulation then you have to disregard the teaching of eternal security as a whole. You can't have both when the passages CLEARLY teach that a man loses his salvation if he doesn't endure. This teaching of the church going through the tribulation would actual make the most sense if you did not believe in eternal security. The main reason I believe in the rapture is because I believe in eternal security as Paul taught it yet there are definitely passages in the NT that teach a believer can lose his salvation. So since they are not a contradiction there has to be another reason and that reason is that the tribulation saints are not assured salvation until the Lord returns with it (Heb. 9:28). They are not part of the church (i.e. the body of Christ).

If you believe all these things happened in 70AD then you are way out there living in denial and can't be helped.
I trust I can live a Christian life with help from the Holy Spirit, rather than your strange teachings. In any case, Jesus' focus in his Olivet prophecies & warnings related immediately to "this generation" that rejected him, rather than any "end times tribulation." The principles of conduct apply to all, not just the Apostles generation.

The only other option is to believe what some teach like the Kingdom and Regular Baptists do. That at the judgement seat of Christ carnal saints will be tossed into the Lake of Fire for a thousand years to be purified. A kind of baptist purgatory.
I suggest you start reading the Bible, seeking guidance & understanding from the Holy Spirit. You are incredibly confused.

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If the Comforter was gone completely, there would be no 'tribulation saints.' For how can one be saved without the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:9)? Therefore we have two choices: a. Holy Spirit taken away with the Church (as you suggest) and thus salvation is no longer possible or b. Holy Spirit releases His restraining influence but is still present, men continue to be saved and made one with Christ and sealed by that same Spirit. In other words, men continue to be saved by the same means and with the same results as before the tribulation.

Eph. 1:13-14 "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." Also verses 10 & 11 - "have received an inheritance." Our inheritance in Christ - our eternal salvation & position in Heaven - is not something that we have yet to receive. We currently possess it. The end of Ephesians 2 goes on to state that we are - current tense - builded together in the church of God "through the Spirit". We thus see that the Spirit takes part in salvation and builds us together in the church of God.

If we then are builded together by the Spirit, and sealed by that same Spirit, how can this that is be taken away? If the Holy Spirit is removed, men cannot be saved and the question of tribulation saints is moot. If the Holy Spirit remains, there is nothing in the Bible to indicate that He will cease or change his saving & keeping work. I do not believe that these hard-to-understand passages in Matthew are clear enough to quantify creating a different salvatory method for the Tribulation. :twocents:

Edited by salyan

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Phlp Mauro, in his book on the 70 weeks, says you should study Daniel, without having heard any previous teaching on the subject, as if you have had any teaching, you will absorb that teaching, and are unlikely ever to change your mind. I would suggest that applies to all prophecy. In this country, if you are a general Baptist or charismatic, you are lkely to believe the pre tribulation theory. If you are a Grace Baptist, you are likely to be a-mil and follow the teachings of Hendriiksen, that seems to be they teach that the book of Revelation is the history of the church in seven parallel visions.

We had a pastor who taught something like that, although he came from a Gospel Standard Background, he said the 2 witnesses were the church from NT to the coming of the Lord, but when I questioned him on it, he couldn't say why he thought that. He believed it because he had been taught it, but didn't understand it. If you are Brethren, you will almost certainly be a dispensationalist, but my dad once said he attended a Brethren which was a-mil, but I believe probably was some sort of Strict baptist. If you follow Grace Advent Testimony, you will likely follow the teachings of Benjamin Wills Newton and Tregelles. Newton was an early associate of Darby and one of the founders of the Brethren in Plymouth, but Darby excommunicated Newton because he excluded people from the Lord's Table, but the real reason was almost certainly a difference of opinion regarding prophecy. I had the SGAT magazine for years but never understood what their teaching was, except they believed that theirs was the true teaching. (don't you all?)

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What is this teaching that the Holy Spirit is removed? Scriptures. please.


Ian, This comes from a false interpretation of Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. And adding it to
2 Thess. 2:3 ¶ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

This is the Brethren teaching. They add Gen 6:3 to 2 Thess 2:7, and come up with "That means the Holy Spirit will be takenaway. That is the equivalent of 2+2=4444. They then say that the "What" in verse 6 refers to the church and "Eureka" they have a rapture. Notice that the events in verses 1-3 are in exactly the reverse order from those in dispensationalist teaching,. Edited by Invicta

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Phlp Mauro, in his book on the 70 weeks, says you should study Daniel, without having heard any previous teaching on the subject, as if you have had any teaching, you will absorb that teaching, and are unlikely ever to change your mind. I would suggest that applies to all prophecy. In this country, if you are a general Baptist or charismatic, you are lkely to believe the pre tribulation theory. If you are a Grace Baptist, you are likely to be a-mil and follow the teachings of Hendriiksen, that seems to be they teach that the book of Revelation is the history of the church in seven parallel visions.

I wasn't really aware of any specific second coming teaching until I went to university, & heard a lot of premil/Scofield/dispensationalism. When I asked my pastor at home, he refuted the premil teaching with Hendriksen's historical interpretation. I held that teaching for the next 40 years.

As you are aware, the third option, preterism, is normally dismissed summarily with the assertion that John wrote Revelation in the 90s. Further study has led me to that line of interpretation. Jesus' Olivet prophecy clearly centres on the destruction of temple, & the removal of the church which then took place as the Jerusalem Christians saw & acted on the signs. Paul's prophecy in 2T2, 20 years before the destruction insists that the utter corruption & destruction will take place as prophesied before the second coming in glory & judgment prophesied in 2T1 & throughout 1Thes.

Rev. 11 prophesies the AD70 destruction, so John's vision must be in the 60s, during Nero's persecution. {Disregard Irenaeus, whose relevant work is only known in a late Latin translation from the Greek, & is ambiguous as to whether John or his vision was seen in the 90s.}

Also, John saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. It is therefore a vision of Christ's heavenly reign, with those who have died in the Lord. The millennium is clearly a time of earthly trouble, ending in Christ's return to judge a world-wide rebellion.

6
Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know n
ot
God, and that
ob
ey n
ot
the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10
When he shall come to be glorified in his sai
nt
s, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.



6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8
And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9
And they we
nt
up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the sai
nt
s about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Edited by Covenanter

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Ian, This comes from a false interpretation of Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. And adding it to
2 Thess. 2:3 ¶ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

This is the Brethren teaching. They add Gen 6:3 to 2 Thess 2:7, and come up with "That means the Holy Spirit will be takenaway. That is the equivalent of 2+2=4444. They then say that the "What" in verse 6 refers to the church and "Eureka" they have a rapture. Notice that the events in verses 1-3 are in exactly the reverse order from those in dispensationalist teaching,.

Thanks, Invicta. Clearly the Gen. 6 striving was during the building of the ark, when Christ, in the Spirit, was preaching through Noah. (1 Pet. 3 & 4, 2 Pet. 2)

The 2T2 restraint is James & the Jerusalem church (dead by martyrdom or removed when they saw the signs) before AD 70, as Abraham reasoned before Sodom's destruction:
That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall n
ot
the Judge of all the earth do right?


That "Holy Spirit" removal must be an invented doctrine, received as if it is true simply by constant repetition.

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2 Thess. 2 begins with talking about the coming of our Lord Jesus, and the gathering together of the church unto Him. That did not happen in 70 AD. Neither did anyone sit in the temple to be worshipped as God.

I concur that the HS will not be completely removed, however. Verse 7 means that He will stop (or greatly lessen) His restraining power against spiritual forces of wickedness on earth.

Question: If 2T2 is referring to 70 AD, then who was that son of perdition(v3), that Wicked(v9) who sat in the temple to be worshipped as God(v4) with power & signs & wonders from Satan(v9)? And when was he destroyed by God at His Coming(v8)?

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2 Thess. 2 begins with talking about the coming of our Lord Jesus, and the gathering together of the church unto Him. That did not happen in 70 AD. Neither did anyone sit in the temple to be worshipped as God.
Paul wrote to the Thessalonians while the temple was still standing, they would have understood him to be talking about Jesus' Olivet prophecy that still had about 20 years to run. He says that that prophecy had to be fulfilled before the second coming. He even told them they knew what & who he was talking about restraining the rise of the man of sin. Scripture details the events as prophecy, but does not name names. The Jewish leaders considered themselves above the Son of God, who quotes Scripture when he says "I said you are gods." Josephus gives a lot of detail.

I concur that the HS will not be completely removed, however. Verse 7 means that He will stop (or greatly lessen) His restraining power against spiritual forces of wickedness on earth.
Why do you think v.7 refers to the Holy Spirit? For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Question: If 2T2 is referring to 70 AD, then who was that son of perdition(v3), that Wicked(v9) who sat in the temple to be worshipped as God(v4) with power & signs & wonders from Satan(v9)? And when was he destroyed by God at His Coming(v8)?
Probably a high priest - Paul denounced one who considered himself above the Law. Josephus records their antics. And Jesus in his parable of the vineyard declares: 16 He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid. Jesus speaks of AD 70 as a "coming." Paul is echoing Jesus. That, of course, is not his second coming for general resurrection & judgment. Paul has already said much about that in his first letter. The Olivet prophecy must be fulfilled before the second coming, & it is the Olivet prophecy he is referring to in 2T2.

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The "he" in the passage of II Thess. 2 is not referring to the Holy Spirit. If you follow the grammatical laws of English the antecedent of "he" is the "man of sin". There is no mention of the Holy Spirit anywhere in the passage.The teaching that it's the "Restrainer" is pure speculation built on the "originals".

That being said, only the church was promised the abiding Comforter. If the Holy Ghost already abode with the OT saints on a full time basis then why would Christ have to pray to the Father for the abiding Comforter? It's clear that this means that it was a new dealing of God with mankind based on Christ's intercessory work. The teaching of the sealing and abiding Comforter is a NT revelation. So if the church is gone after the rapture then so will the abiding presence of the Holy Ghost within the saint since this is strictly a promise to the NT church. That doesn't mean the Holy Ghost won't be dealing with people during the tribulation. But it does mean that there is no sealing presence like we have now.

It's time to start believing what the bible says and not force it to teach what your denomination or favorite theologian teaches.

Edited by Wilchbla

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Anyone born again in Christ, regardless of when that occurs, will forever be in Christ.

The verses quoted are referring to the reward given to those who heed the word of the Lord and the consequences of those who don't. Those who obey the Lord are truly His while those who refuse to obey the Lord prove they are not His. This is taught throughout Scripture. There is no special teaching of limited salvation for those born again during tribulation.


The passages clearly say that a servant of Christ waiting for the Lord's return who backslides will end up being cut asunder and tossed into outer darkness. I don't know how this can be any clearer. You can spiritualize it anyway you want but it's clear as the noon day sun that's what the verses teach.

By the way, lots of Christians don't obey the Lord. This has nothing to do with your salvation. It's ironic that you claim salvation only by faith without works in every dispensation yet you teeter on the brink of Arminianism with your statement above (i.e. "anyone who refuses to obey the Lord are not his"). You refuse to place the verse in it's proper dispensation and end up almost teaching a works based salvation for this age of grace. This is typical for Calvinists. This is exactly why John MacArthur can't get his "Gospel According to Jesus" right and ends up teaching Lordship salvation. Edited by Wilchbla

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If you wish to believe someone can be born again in Christ and if he doesn't conduct himself well enough God will disown them and cast them out of the family into hell, you may do so. However, since that's not what Scripture teachs, I don't believe that.

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Yes, there's many that never hear the truth, for they're not in a place where the truth is taught, & yes, there is a 2nd coming of Christ, in the clouds in the air, He will not touch foot on this earth, He will take His own out of this world, the Holy Spirit will be removed, & there will be times coming like never before seen. i don't focus on it all that much, the tribulations, for I will not be here, I, as all believers will be at our home, we have that 'blessed hope,' because of the 'Wonderful Savior."

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Yes, there's many that never hear the truth, for they're not in a place where the truth is taught, & yes, there is a 2nd coming of Christ, in the clouds in the air, He will not touch foot on this earth, He will take His own out of this world, the Holy Spirit will be removed, & there will be times coming like never before seen. i don't focus on it all that much, the tribulations, for I will not be here, I, as all believers will be at our home, we have that 'blessed hope,' because of the 'Wonderful Savior."


That may be what you have been taught, and as I said what people have been taught, that is what they believe. and are unlikely to change their minds, whatever scripture teaches.
yes, there is a 2nd coming of Christ,

I think we can all agree with that. praise the Lord.

He will not touch foot on this earth,

Not what the scipture says: Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

How is he coming? In like manner. How did he go? From earth to heaven. How will he come? From heaven to earth.

the Holy Spirit will be removed,
That is adding to scripture. Nowhere does it say that. Edited by Invicta

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A high priest sat in the temple to be worshipped as God? Hardly. And where are the Satanic signs and wonders?

Every interpretation of prophecy has its difficulties. I have sought to answer every question from a Biblical position. Read 2T1 & 2T2 again, taking the literal reading, in context, & in comparison with related Scriptures. The militant disps will deride me for saying that, & accuse me of habitual "spiritualizing" but we have to read the Scriptures before attempting interpretation.

Paul in 2T2 is reminding his readers of something that must happen BEFORE the coming of the Lord for resurrection & judgment. A sequence of events concerning the temple & its destruction as prophesied by Jesus. If I do not attempt to name names & list signs not recorded in Scripture, that does not invalidate the simple Scriptural interpretation I teach. I hope we all agree that that destruction took place in AD 70, so the related events also took place during that time.

For the same reason I see Rev. 11 also referring to the AD 70 destruction, with the two witnesses (Moses & Elijah) being the Law & Prophets, according to Luke 16 & John 5. How all the imagery fits together is a challenge for every interpreter.
For I have five brethren; that he may testify u
nt
o them, lest they also come i
nt
o this place of torme
nt
.

Abraham saith u
nt
o him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one we
nt
u
nt
o them from the dead, they will repe
nt
.

And he said u
nt
o him, If they hear n
ot
Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the
dead.


Do n
ot
think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is [one] that accuseth you, [even] Moses, in whom ye trust.

For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wr
ot
e of me.

But if ye believe n
ot
his writings, how shall ye believe my words?


The prophecies of Moses & the prophets were fully vindicated when Jerusalem fell as prophesied.
For Moses truly said u
nt
o the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up u
nt
o you of your brethren, like u
nt
o me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say u
nt
o you.

And it shall come to pass, [that] every soul, which will n
ot
hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
Edited by Covenanter

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Every interpretation of prophecy has its difficulties. I have sought to answer every question from a Biblical position. Read 2T1 & 2T2 again, taking the literal reading, in context, & in comparison with related Scriptures. The militant disps will deride me for saying that, & accuse me of habitual "spiritualizing" but we have to read the Scriptures before attempting interpretation.

Paul in 2T2 is reminding his readers of something that must happen BEFORE the coming of the Lord for resurrection & judgment. A sequence of events concerning the temple & its destruction as prophesied by Jesus. If I do not attempt to name names & list signs not recorded in Scripture, that does not invalidate the simple Scriptural interpretation I teach. I hope we all agree that that destruction took place in AD 70, so the related events also took place during that time.

For the same reason I see Rev. 11 also referring to the AD 70 destruction, with the two witnesses (Moses & Elijah) being the Law & Prophets, according to Luke 16 & John 5. How all the imagery fits together is a challenge for every interpreter.
For I have five brethren; that he may testify u
nt
o them, lest they also come i
nt
o this place of torme
nt
.

Abraham saith u
nt
o him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one we
nt
u
nt
o them from the dead, they will repe
nt
.

And he said u
nt
o him, If they hear n
ot
Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the
dead.


Do n
ot
think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is [one] that accuseth you, [even] Moses, in whom ye trust.

For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wr
ot
e of me.

But if ye believe n
ot
his writings, how shall ye believe my words?


The prophecies of Moses & the prophets were fully vindicated when Jerusalem fell as prophesied.
For Moses truly said u
nt
o the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up u
nt
o you of your brethren, like u
nt
o me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say u
nt
o you.

And it shall come to pass, [that] every soul, which will n
ot
hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.




Ian,

How can the law and the prophets be killed and their bodies lie on the street, and then be resurrected? NO. you believe that the book of revelation is 'signified' Rev 1:1. That is symbolised. So look at the signs or symbols given. The witnesses were also candlesticks. What do candlesticks signify? Reve 1 :20. They signify churches, so the two witnesses are churches.

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Ian,

How can the law and the prophets be killed and their bodies lie on the street, and then be resurrected? NO. you believe that the book of revelation is 'signified' Rev 1:1. That is symbolised. So look at the signs or symbols given. The witnesses were also candlesticks. What do candlesticks signify? Reve 1 :20. They signify churches, so the two witnesses are churches.

Have you considered the Law/Prophets (Moses/Elijah) refs in my post?

Does every sign/symbol have the same significance throughout Scripture? Of course "light" signified Christ & his word, & the churches spread the light, but Jesus declared:
I say also u
nt
o thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall n
ot
prevail against it.


While John sees in his temple/Jerusalem vision in Rev. 11:
And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the b
ot
tomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.


When did the churches finish their testimony?

The prophets' testimony to the leaders of ethnic Israel did end as prophesied:
Mat. 23 [Ye] serpe
nt
s, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Wherefore, behold, I send u
nt
o you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city:

That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel u
nt
o the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Verily I say u
nt
o you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

¶ O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are se
nt
u
nt
o thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would n
ot
!

Behold, your house is left u
nt
o you desolate.

For I say u
nt
o you, Ye shall n
ot
see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord.


But, of course, the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you. God's word, rejected by the Jews, could not die. It lives on exerting its power by the Gospel.

We see the effect in our day of the Word of God being discredited. The ungodly rejoice because the restraining power of the Law of God no longer applies. We must maintain our witness, though we face increasing hostility. The Word, & those who believe & preach it, will be vindicated.

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Have you considered the Law/Prophets (Moses/Elijah) refs in my post?

Yes, bro, I have, and I cannot see it, could they die and lay on the streets and be viewed, and raised and their ressurection be a horror to all who saw them?

Does every sign/symbol have the same significance throughout Scripture? Yes, I believe it does. What reason would there be for giving a symbol if the item symbolised changes. I believe thet symbols are consistent from Genesis to Revelation. Of course "light" signified Christ & his word, & the churches spread the light, but Jesus declared:



I say also u
nt
o thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall n
ot
prevail against it.
Yes, n
ot
permana
nt
ly, but:

Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the sai
nt
s, and prevailed against them;


Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the sai
nt
s of the most High,7:22,27.

These saints who were prevailed against and worn down, are those who will receive the kingdom. Dan


While John sees in his temple/Jerusalem vision in Rev. 11:

And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the b
ot
tomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.


When did the churches finish their testimony? When they finally recognised the papcy as the Antichrist and fully documented the fact, they had completed their testimony.

The prophets' testimony to the leaders of ethnic Israel did end as prophesied:

Mat. 23 [Ye] serpe
nt
s, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Wherefore, behold, I send u
nt
o you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city:

That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel u
nt
o the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Verily I say u
nt
o you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

¶ O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are se
nt
u
nt
o thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would n
ot
!

Behold, your house is left u
nt
o you desolate.

For I say u
nt
o you, Ye shall n
ot
see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

The testimony of the law and prophets was completed in John the Baptist: Lu 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

But, of course, the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you. God's word, rejected by the Jews, could not die. It lives on exerting its power by the Gospel.

We see the effect in our day of the Word of God being discredited. The ungodly rejoice because the restraining power of the Law of God no longer applies. We must maintain our witness, though we face increasing hostility. The Word, & those who believe & preach it, will be vindicated.

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