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"They told us that when the Roman Empire was taken out of the way, the man of sin, Antichrist would be revealed."

That did not happen. The Roman Empire fell and no antichrist, no mark of the beast, no world government, no plagues, no bowls of wrath, etc. etc. Those things are yet future.

We will be removed BEFORE the Lord pours out his wrath: Luke 21:34-37.


Invicta holds to that strange teachings & propagates it at ever opportunity.

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The mystery of iniquity was already at work during Paul's time. There was no Pope during Paul's time. So it has to be someone or something else who could have been revealed during Paul's time but wasn't. Maybe the Pope could have filled the role at one time but not anymore. I do agree that the Pope is an antichrist and the RCC fits the description of the whore of Revelation but this doesn't mean that they are these things in the fullest sense. Most likely the RCC is one of the daughters of the whore.

There is a big part of the world out there that was never nor will ever be controlled by the Pope. So he can't be the beast in my estimation. Unless, of course you believe in the conspiracies of former Jesuit Alberto Rivera who has the RCC creating everything from Islam to Jim Jones to Hitler and Lenin as well as every war and form of government since the 1800.

And you still miss the point I made with Larkin's quote. You said that dispensationalism doesn't teach that the Pope is an (or thee) antichrist and I gave you a quote from the most influential dispensationalist of all time where he clearly says that the theology does teach these things.

So you should know what you are talking about before making yourself look silly again.

Edited by Wilchbla

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Invicta holds to that strange teachings & propagates it at ever opportunity.

The line of interpretation Invicta follows is basically the historical method. That understanding is that Revelation was written as future history in general terms. Keep alert, the whole period from Pentecost to Jesus return is "end-times" & we must therefore watch & pray, serving our Lord in readiness for his coming.

I'm happy with that, provided is doesn't exclude (partial) "Preterism," which Invicta does exclude, as do all of you who accept a 90s date for Revelation & ignore Rev. 11 about the yet future destruction of Jerusalem & the temple.

Prophecy will NOT completed until Jesus returns in glory to bring about the resurrection & NH&NE, & to judge the wicked.

After his prophecy of the destruction & the days of vengeance falling on the generation that persistently rejected its Messiah, Jesus predicts Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away and commands us all: Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

And, remembering the thread title, in principle ANY "mark" which gives approval to the ungodly, to the exclusion of Christians, is A mark of the beast. The latest is "gay marriage."

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"They told us that when the Roman Empire was taken out of the way, the man of sin, Antichrist would be revealed."

That did not happen. The Roman Empire fell and no antichrist, no mark of the beast, no world government, no plagues, no bowls of wrath, etc. etc. Those things are yet future.

We will be removed BEFORE the Lord pours out his wrath: Luke 21:34-37.

32
Verily I say u
nt
o you, This generation shall n
ot
pass away, till all be fulfilled.

34
And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35
For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accou
nt
ed worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Thanks for posting Scripture to support your teaching. We clearly agree that that Scripture is important for living believers. I have added the preceding verses to your quote. We need to note that Jesus' prophecy against this generation relates to the destruction. I hope all agree on that, though I know that some will insist that aspects of the prophecy relate to "end times." I'll pass that point for this post.


The question is, are the prophesies in 2 Thes. 2 & Rev. 11 concerning the destruction? If we are constrained by Scripture, they must be. There is no suggestion in the NT of a future man-made temple. The New Covenant temple is built with living stones - Christian believers. There can be no future temple, & no future sacrifices.

15
Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16
This is the covena
nt
that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws i
nt
o their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17
And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall n
ot
come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.



The temple will be taken possession of by that man of sin - the destruction prophesied by Jesus has to take place before Jesus returns for resurrection. Why did Jesus not destroy the temple immediately when Stephen, by the Holy Spirit, declared the old (circumcision) covenant ended: Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. The reason is that Jews were still being saved. The Gospel was still being preached in the temple & Jerusalem, & God would not slay the righteous with the wicked. (Gen. 18)


So, who & what delayed the destruction? Did Paul give the Thessalonians information that we do not know?

5
Remember ye n
ot
, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

7
For the mystery of iniquity d
ot
h already work: only he who now letteth will let, u
nt
il he be taken out of the way.



Jesus gave clear directions to the Jerusalem Christians so they would know when the destruction of the city was imminent:

20
And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21
Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mou
nt
ains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let n
ot
them that are in the cou
nt
ries e
nt
er therei
nt
o.

While James led the Jerusalem church, even through persecution, destruction was withheld, but when James was murdered, he who now letteth was taken out of the way. There was no further restraint – utter wickedness ensued.
8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

10
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received n
ot
the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12
That they all might be damned who believed n
ot
the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.



What about the brightness of his coming ? Remember what Jesus said when he told his vineyard parable:

15
So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do u
nt
o them?

16
He shall come and destroy these husbandmen
, and shall give the vineyard to
ot
hers. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid.


He came (with his agents, the Roman armies) & destroyed those husbandmen, & gave the “vineyard” to his church, comprising Jew & Gentile believers.
But when the king heard [thereof], he was wr
ot
h: and he se
nt
forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.


We will be removed BEFORE the Lord pours out his wrath: Luke 21:34-37.

Yes, the Jerusalem church was removed before the wrath of God fell on the city, & the resurrection will remove believers before his wrath falls on the wicked in final judgme
nt
.

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"They told us that when the Roman Empire was taken out of the way, the man of sin, Antichrist would be revealed."

That did not happen. The Roman Empire fell and no antichrist, no mark of the beast, no world government, no plagues, no bowls of wrath, etc. etc. Those things are yet future.

We will be removed BEFORE the Lord pours out his wrath: Luke 21:34-37.


The Antichrist was revealed in the Papacy, as practically the whole church recognised. Only modern teachings do naot accept that, and that has allowed the RCC to flourish, which it could not if we preached as our spiritual ancestors did.

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The Antichrist was revealed in the Papacy, as practically the whole church recognised. Only modern teachings do naot accept that, and that has allowed the RCC to flourish, which it could not if we preached as our spiritual ancestors did.

That is something I've found to be very curious. I was born again in 1981 so when I started reading and learning about Chirstianity most of what I read was from the 1970s and then the early 80s. Virtually all of what I read attacked the RCC as ungodly, Catholics as non-Christians and said the pope was the antichrist.

Later as I read some of the writings of Christians from past centuries, I saw the same sort of thing.

Then it seems sometime in the 80s and really taking hold by the 90s, there was a major shift away from such teaching. Not only did such teaching mostly come to a stop, but suddenly Catholics were being hailed as Christians, the RCC a Christian church and the pope (John Paul II at the time) as a great man of God.

I'm not sure, but I think much of this, at least in America, had to do with the rise of anti-communism, the great anti-communist crusader President Reagan reaching out to and embracing the RCC and the pope, the rabid ecumenicism of the Promise Keepers. Then it just spread like wildfire.

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That is something I've found to be very curious. I was born again in 1981 so when I started reading and learning about Chirstianity most of what I read was from the 1970s and then the early 80s. Virtually all of what I read attacked the RCC as ungodly, Catholics as non-Christians and said the pope was the antichrist.

Later as I read some of the writings of Christians from past centuries, I saw the same sort of thing.

Then it seems sometime in the 80s and really taking hold by the 90s, there was a major shift away from such teaching. Not only did such teaching mostly come to a stop, but suddenly Catholics were being hailed as Christians, the RCC a Christian church and the pope (John Paul II at the time) as a great man of God.

I'm not sure, but I think much of this, at least in America, had to do with the rise of anti-communism, the great anti-communist crusader President Reagan reaching out to and embracing the RCC and the pope, the rabid ecumenicism of the Promise Keepers. Then it just spread like wildfire.



I'm sure, John, that what you mentioned helped it along as far as the secular world is concerned and even to some extent in Christian circles. I would say that those such as Billy Graham, Jerry Falwell, and other New Evangelicals are more to blame where Christians are concerned. Because of their willingness to hold hands with the RCC and stand beside them in joint efforts it helped to break down that wall of separation between true Christians and the false religion of Catholicism. Sadly, many churches have followed New Evangelicalism in its compromising path instead of holding true to Bible principles.

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I'm the last one to hold hands with the RCC but you still run into eschatology problems teaching that the Pope is the Antichrist. He just doesn't hold that much power in this present world. And then there's the problem of which Pope. All of them? How can that be when the beast will be one specific individual. Also, Daniel seems to suggest that the Antichrist will come out of the Syria or Jordan. Will the Pope be an Arab?

It's funny that many of the same people who believe that the Pope is the antichrist also reject the conspiracies of Alberto Rivera. If what Rivera says is true then you can say that the Pope is the beast but I know few Christians who believe what the man claimed. One of them is that the RCC literally invented Islam and that the Quran was penned by Mohammed's wife's (who was Roman Catholic) cousin.

In any case, the Anglcian church and many of the churches of the reformation have returned to the RCC. So you can't blame dispensationalism on that and the fact is that most dispensationalist I know personally teach that the Pope is the beast and that the RCC is the whore of Revelation. I don't care what Darby may have or may not have believed. Most teach this and whoever says otherwise doesn't know what is going on within the movement.

I do not endorse this website but here is a link:

http://www.redicecre...holicislam.html

Edited by Wilchbla

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An accusation of that which I did not make.


Invicta can't get his princes sorted out correctly in Daniel 9 even those the KJV translators intentionally capitalized the word "Prince" that refers to Jesus Christ and not the word "prince" that refers to the antichrist.

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The Promise keepers helped the RCC have a better image, & during that time many of the SBC Churches embraced the RCC as well as many other false teaching churches giving them much creditably. Seems the Promise keepers did not last to long.

I remember seeing on our local TV, a broadcast of the local large SBC church several of the men that when to promise keepers talking about how good it was & how wonderful it was to worship with the RCC church members & others.

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I'm the last one to hold hands with the RCC but you still run into eschatology problems teaching that the Pope is the Antichrist. He just doesn't hold that much power in this present world. And then there's the problem of which Pope. All of them? How can that be when the beast will be one specific individual. Also, Daniel seems to suggest that the Antichrist will come out of the Syria or Jordan. Will the Pope be an Arab?

It's funny that many of the same people who believe that the Pope is the antichrist also reject the conspiracies of Alberto Rivera. If what Rivera says is true then you can say that the Pope is the beast but I know few Christians who believe what the man claimed. One of them is that the RCC literally invented Islam and that the Quran was penned by Mohammed's wife's (who was Roman Catholic) cousin.

In any case, the Anglcian church and many of the churches of the reformation have returned to the RCC. So you can't blame dispensationalism on that and the fact is that most dispensationalist I know personally teach that the Pope is the beast and that the RCC is the whore of Revelation. I don't care what Darby may have or may not have believed. Most teach this and whoever says otherwise doesn't know what is going on within the movement.

I do not endorse this website but here is a link:

http://www.redicecre...holicislam.html


It may be that many that believe the pope will be the anti-christ, believes it will be the one who is pope of the RCC during the coming tribulations & great tribulations, & year period, which takes place right after Jesus comes for His own.

I've never heard anyone locally say it would be the pope, but a few have said it might be.

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In some countries, the mark of the beast was being an RC. Legal marriage in Spain in the 50s was conducted by RC priests. A civil wedding was possible if your priest gave a certificate of apostasy.

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I'm sure, John, that what you mentioned helped it along as far as the secular world is concerned and even to some extent in Christian circles. I would say that those such as Billy Graham, Jerry Falwell, and other New Evangelicals are more to blame where Christians are concerned. Because of their willingness to hold hands with the RCC and stand beside them in joint efforts it helped to break down that wall of separation between true Christians and the false religion of Catholicism. Sadly, many churches have followed New Evangelicalism in its compromising path instead of holding true to Bible principles.

I agree. Billy Graham did much of the groundwork of making it acceptable for Christians to yoke with the RCC. Falwell and his "moral majority" which virtually worshiped Reagan moved it along even faster with their massive appeal during the Reagan years. The Promise Keepers latched onto this and spread it even further within the Christian churches across America.

We see similar going on right now with Christian leaders, churches and organizations yoking with Mormons, calling Mormons Christians, accepting Mormonism as a form of Christianity.

Many churches today are open to accept almost anything.

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I'm the last one to hold hands with the RCC but you still run into eschatology problems teaching that the Pope is the Antichrist. He just doesn't hold that much power in this present world. And then there's the problem of which Pope. All of them? How can that be when the beast will be one specific individual. Also, Daniel seems to suggest that the Antichrist will come out of the Syria or Jordan. Will the Pope be an Arab?

It's funny that many of the same people who believe that the Pope is the antichrist also reject the conspiracies of Alberto Rivera. If what Rivera says is true then you can say that the Pope is the beast but I know few Christians who believe what the man claimed. One of them is that the RCC literally invented Islam and that the Quran was penned by Mohammed's wife's (who was Roman Catholic) cousin.

In any case, the Anglcian church and many of the churches of the reformation have returned to the RCC. So you can't blame dispensationalism on that and the fact is that most dispensationalist I know personally teach that the Pope is the beast and that the RCC is the whore of Revelation. I don't care what Darby may have or may not have believed. Most teach this and whoever says otherwise doesn't know what is going on within the movement.

I do not endorse this website but here is a link:

http://www.redicecre...holicislam.html

It's been some time since I've read much on this, but as I recall many who pointed to the fact there will be many antichrists, which they say each pope has been one, and they expect some future pope to be THE antichrist.

Many people did believer Alberto until research was finally done which proved he was a lifelong liar, fraud, and seeker of power and fame. It's better to leave such behind and stick to what is true.

Has every pope been an antichrist? I can't say for certain but when reading the history of the RCC it certainly seems most of the popes were outright evil and anti-Christian. Will a future pope be THE antichrist? I don't know but it seems to be a valid theory.

What is known is that most Christians until the past several decades did view the RCC as the evil antichrist church and popes as an antichrist.

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The Promise keepers helped the RCC have a better image, & during that time many of the SBC Churches embraced the RCC as well as many other false teaching churches giving them much creditably. Seems the Promise keepers did not last to long.

I remember seeing on our local TV, a broadcast of the local large SBC church several of the men that when to promise keepers talking about how good it was & how wonderful it was to worship with the RCC church members & others.

Yes, the Promise Keepers went to extremes in order to be ecumenical and accepting of the RCC. They drew huge crowds during much of the 80s and into the 90s where they spread this acceptance of the RCC and ecumenicism of virtually any church or group calling itself Christian.

Such a shame, they did have some good points but all that was for nothing when mixed with all the garbage they wallowed in.

The Promise Keepers are still around, but like most all things, once the new wore off people went looking for something else. If only folks would look for Christ and seek Him out in Scripture rather than looking to the latest man or group that "sounds good" and following them.

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It may be that many that believe the pope will be the anti-christ, believes it will be the one who is pope of the RCC during the coming tribulations & great tribulations, & year period, which takes place right after Jesus comes for His own.

I've never heard anyone locally say it would be the pope, but a few have said it might be.


The thing is that according to Paul the mystery of iniquity (aka the man of sin) was already at work in his day. Since there was no Pope at that time apparently it can be anyone at any given time in human history but for whatever reason has been held back. Maybe the Pope qualified as this at one time but I just don't see this anymore.

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It's been some time since I've read much on this, but as I recall many who pointed to the fact there will be many antichrists, which they say each pope has been one, and they expect some future pope to be THE antichrist.

Many people did believer Alberto until research was finally done which proved he was a lifelong liar, fraud, and seeker of power and fame. It's better to leave such behind and stick to what is true.

Has every pope been an antichrist? I can't say for certain but when reading the history of the RCC it certainly seems most of the popes were outright evil and anti-Christian. Will a future pope be THE antichrist? I don't know but it seems to be a valid theory.

What is known is that most Christians until the past several decades did view the RCC as the evil antichrist church and popes as an antichrist.


Yes, every pope was and is an antichrist but this can be said about many many different world leaders great and small. So what qualifies the Pope as being the Antichrist over any of these other men?

I think a lot of this may come out of the fact that the Anglican church, as well as the other reformation churches, believed they were the true kingdom of God on earth and the RCC was the whore. Maybe at one point in history you could buy into this but there really isn't much difference from the Church of England and Lutheran from the RCC anymore. From all I've read there's a big movement within the Anglican church to rejoin with the RCC. You can't say that dispensationalism has caused this. The most separated churches that I know of personally are dispensationalist.

As far as Alberto Rivera I'm not sure if the guy was such a fraud as they say. Apparently the papists put on a big smear campaign against him. He did get into some money problems but this doesn't mean what he said wasn't true or at least mostly true. Look at Kent Hovind.

It is true that Mohammed's favorite wife was Roman Catholic (as was, interestingly, Yassar Arafat's) and his favorite child by her was named Fatima which is a important name in Catholic mythology. Edited by Wilchbla

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The Antichrist was revealed in the Papacy, as practically the whole church recognised. Only modern teachings do naot accept that, and that has allowed the RCC to flourish, which it could not if we preached as our spiritual ancestors did.


A future pope may well be the 'false prophet' but not the Antichrist. There have been many 'antichrists' but there will only be one ANTICHRIST during the coming tribulation. (Rev. 13).

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32
Verily I say u
nt
o you, This generation shall n
ot
pass away, till all be fulfilled.

34
And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35
For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accou
nt
ed worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Thanks for posting Scripture to support your teaching. We clearly agree that that Scripture is important for living believers. I have added the preceding verses to your quote. We need to note that Jesus' prophecy against this generation relates to the destruction. I hope all agree on that, though I know that some will insist that aspects of the prophecy relate to "end times." I'll pass that point for this post.


The question is, are the prophesies in 2 Thes. 2 & Rev. 11 concerning the destruction? If we are constrained by Scripture, they must be. There is no suggestion in the NT of a future man-made temple. The New Covenant temple is built with living stones - Christian believers. There can be no future temple, & no future sacrifices.


15
Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16
This is the covena
nt
that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws i
nt
o their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17
And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall n
ot
come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.



The temple will be taken possession of by that man of sin - the destruction prophesied by Jesus has to take place before Jesus returns for resurrection. Why did Jesus not destroy the temple immediately when Stephen, by the Holy Spirit, declared the old (circumcision) covenant ended: Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. The reason is that Jews were still being saved. The Gospel was still being preached in the temple & Jerusalem, & God would not slay the righteous with the wicked. (Gen. 18)


So, who & what delayed the destruction? Did Paul give the Thessalonians information that we do not know?


5
Remember ye n
ot
, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

7
For the mystery of iniquity d
ot
h already work: only he who now letteth will let, u
nt
il he be taken out of the way.



Jesus gave clear directions to the Jerusalem Christians so they would know when the destruction of the city was imminent:


20
And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21
Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mou
nt
ains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let n
ot
them that are in the cou
nt
ries e
nt
er therei
nt
o.

While James led the Jerusalem church, even through persecution, destruction was withheld, but when James was murdered, he who now letteth was taken out of the way. There was no further restraint – utter wickedness ensued.

8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

10
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received n
ot
the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12
That they all might be damned who believed n
ot
the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.



What about the brightness of his coming ? Remember what Jesus said when he told his vineyard parable:


15
So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do u
nt
o them?

16
He shall come and destroy these husbandmen
, and shall give the vineyard to
ot
hers. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid.


He came (with his agents, the Roman armies) & destroyed those husbandmen, & gave the “vineyard” to his church, comprising Jew & Gentile believers.

But when the king heard [thereof], he was wr
ot
h: and he se
nt
forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.



Yes, the Jerusalem church was removed before the wrath of God fell on the city, & the resurrection will remove believers before his wrath falls on the wicked in final judgme
nt
.



I'd rather not. That position is of little interest to me.

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A future pope may well be the 'false prophet' but not the Antichrist. There have been many 'antichrists' but there will only be one ANTICHRIST during the coming tribulation. (Rev. 13).


And being as we do not know who the anti-christ will be, it could be a setting pope, when we don't know who it will be its impossible to rule out anyone.

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A future pope may well be the 'false prophet' but not the Antichrist. There have been many 'antichrists' but there will only be one ANTICHRIST during the coming tribulation. (Rev. 13).


All the kings in Daniel's prophecy of the image in Dan. 2. were dyasties, what makes you think the kingom of Antichrist will be different?
nt.

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Re - my Scriptural argument for preterism -



I'd rather not. That position is of little interest to me.

I have shown from Scripture the reason for believing NT prophecy relates to AD 70, without invoking the early church leaders, Jesuits, modern preterist apologists, or any non-Scriptural sources.

You could at least acknowledge that preterists have a valid Scriptural case & are not heretics.

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