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Don't change the subject by bringing in Malachi. You were pointing to Deuteronomy, and I was pointing you to Leviticus. And to think that the verses I quotes in Leviticus 27 are not talking about money is essentially you ignoring the entire context of the passage. Throughout the chapter, God tells the priests to place a monetary valuation on things vowed to God. Everything presented as a consecration to God (seed, produce, clean and unclean animals) and then if it was redeemed (bought back) by the offerer, the value of the offering was increased by certain amount and shekels were to be paid.

Lev. 27:27 - And if it be of an unclean beast, then he shall redeem it according to thine estimation, and shall add a fifth part of it thereto: or if it be not redeemed, then it shall be sold according to thy estimation.

How can you add a fifth part to an animal? Obviously, this is referring to a monetary valuation and would be paid into the treasury of the tabernacle, so the offerer could take the animal back. Applying that to today, if you were to consecrate your house to God, then you'd have to turn it over to the priests. If you still wanted to live in the house, then you'd pay what your pastor decided it was worth, add 20 percent to that, and write a check to the church. How could you give a fifth of your house otherwise?

Now, this post is not necessarily defending whether or not tithing is for New Testament believers. It is answering your erroneous postings that tithing never included money. I have proven you wrong, with Scripture.

Mitch
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Animals were not to be redeemed. Man could not redeem to himself the animals that were tithe for that very purpose that a fifth of an animal could not be offered. Leviticus 27:32,33

But, tithes of the produce could be redeemed, for one could give a fifth more of a produce without destroying that produce. Leviticus 27:30,31

Tithe was not money. If tithe was changed for money, it was changed again to tithe later by the tither. Deuteronomy 14:24-26

You have not proven me wrong. I have given Scripture to show money was never accepted as tithing.

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Oops, you're right about the tithing of animals. I guess I got wrapped up into your comments that money was never used as a tithe that I didn't read all the way to verse 33. So I do apologize for missing that important detail.

However, again, look at verses 30-31:

30And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD's: it is holy unto the LORD.
31And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof.

Money is used throughout the chapter to redeem the offerings. That was the crux of my previous post - money was acceptable. Now, referring specifically to tithes, Moses is telling farmers that if they want to "redeem" (buy back) their tithes, then 20% is added to the value of that tithe to buy it back. Just like they could the offerings. In other words, farmers were being "penalized" for buying back their tithes. Therefore, silver shekels were an acceptable substitute for a tithe.

Yes, money could be used to buy "tithes" in the Temple Square. But Deut. 14:24-26 does not countermand Leviticus 27. Deuteronomy allows an Israelite to buy his tithe that was not under his control, in other words, his tithe was not his own produce. So, technically, what he was presenting to the Lord was not of his own hands. That was allowed for convenience, according to verses 24-26, but that has no effect on Leviticus 27, where an Israelite could simply pay money for this tithe, as long as he includes a 20% surcharge (maybe for convenience as well).

Your statement:
But, tithes of the produce could be redeemed, for one could give a fifth more of a produce without destroying that produce.
makes no sense. I really don't understand what you're trying to say. If I give a tithe, take it back, and then give 20% to the tabernacle? How is that destroying the produce?

Mitch
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what makes no sense is to say that money was given instead of tithe to the priest. If that were allowed, Moses would not have told them to take the money in Deuteronomy and buy with it produce. It was produce to be brought to the priest, not money.

When one sold the tithe or changed it for money, he had to repurchase produce for a tithe when he arrived where God wanted him to go.

If he had 20 bags of grain for tithes, and he redeemed that grain for himself, he would be required to get another 20 bags, plus a 21st bag (a fifth) for the tithe and the interest, so to speak.

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Can our pastors of today prove that they are of the Levitical priesthood? It was only the Levitical Priesthood that received tithes, with one exception.

Melchisadek received tithes of Abram. But those tithes were of the spoils of war, not of Abram's personal belongings! As a matter of fact, Abram clearly said he did not want to claim any of the remaining 90% of the spoils that was not tithed!

That should tell us something.

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Animals were not to be redeemed. Man could not redeem to himself the animals that were tithe for that very purpose that a fifth of an animal could not be offered. Leviticus 27:32,33

But, tithes of the produce could be redeemed, for one could give a fifth more of a produce without destroying that produce. Leviticus 27:30,31

Tithe was not money. If tithe was changed for money, it was changed again to tithe later by the tither. Deuteronomy 14:24-26

You have not proven me wrong. I have given Scripture to show money was never accepted as tithing.


Actually, if you give an offering (according to your skewed reasoning) you had better use silver or God, because Federal Reserve Notes aren't mentioned.

Wow, this is sort of fun, twisting stuff to your benefit.
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Actually, if you give an offering (according to your skewed reasoning) you had better use silver or God, because Federal Reserve Notes aren't mentioned.

Wow, this is sort of fun, twisting stuff to your benefit.


If any twisting is being done, it is by the preachers who say God demands our money for tithes. Scripture nowhere declares such idiocy... nowhere!

Money is mentioned for offerings, btw, not just silver and gold.
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If someone thinks that tithing is OT law and is not something that should be done today I won't fault them for it... IF they ACTUALLY follow the NT pattern. :Green

"Mark 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me."

"Mark 12:41-44 And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much. And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing. And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury: For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living. "

"Luke 12:33 Sell that ye have , and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth."

"Luke 16:13-14 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him."

"Luke 19:8 And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold."

"Ephesians 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. "

Honestly, is giving a main motivation for our work or more of a side effect? Do you work to give or work to live?

"2 Corinthians 8:3-4 For to their power, I bear record, yea, and beyond their power they were willing of themselves; Praying us with much entreaty that we would receive the gift, and take upon us the fellowship of the ministering to the saints."

The NT pattern is giving ALL with no closed fistedness. :wink From what I have seen MOST of the people who object to the thought of tithing object more out of not wanting to feel obligated to give 10% to God than anything else. Not saying that this is the case here, just a general observation. :Green I tell you though that even in fundamentalist churches the total offerings rarely come even CLOSE to 10% of all the regular members income... Let alone anything like the NT pattern.

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Lets just assume for a moment that the tithe does apply to Christians, and that those verses discussed above allow us to pay our tithe with paper money. Why don't pastors preach 10% + 20% penalty. Distance is obviously not a factor for most of us. What is a factor for most of us is that we would have to substitute our produce for money (so we would have to follow the tithe redeem law, which is 10% + 20% penalty, since we would basically have to 'buy' or monetarily value out our tithe, since our actual produce can't be given to the church, since it's not ours). Again, we are assuming tithe can be money. Why aren't pastors preaching this penalty? The only cases where just 10% money would be accepted would be if distance is a factor. And that's not a factor for us in modern days since we have planes, trains, automobiles, teleporters, etc...

I guess my point is: If tithing is a requirement, why aren't pastors preaching the Bible (down to the letter of the law) when it comes to tithing? Why is some altered modern tradition of tithing accepted and preached as a requirement in churches who rightly hold to the Bible as their sole source for doctrine?


@Seth Doty,

Those are excellent examples of instances where people gave a lot more than 10% in the NT. There is, however, something more definite than just instances, and that's a NT commandment:

2 Corinthians 9:7- Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

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Many times I have given more than 10%, I give what God lays on my heart to give. God loveth a cheerful giver. He does not want your money if you are giving it because you feel you have to (I gotta tithe 10%), or if you are upset at even giving a penny. Not of compulsion, or grudgingly.

Tithing was never money. If tithes were exchanged for money, the money was to be used to buy produce (corn, wheat, oil, etc.) back to tithe with.

When you hound your people and put them under a burden to tithe 10% of their money, do you tell them to obey the other 612 Levitical laws of the Old Testament? He that is guilty of one is guilty of all. Do you have a battlement on your roof? Do all your congregants?

What about clothing? is it all of one material? You know that is Levitical law as well.

If you are going to put them under the bondage of tithing, stand in your pulpits and demand they build battlements, wear clothing according to Levitical standards, etc. All 612 must be demanded if you are going to insist on one.

But even if you can get them to obey the 612, if you are telling them the tithe is of their money, you are causing them to break the tithe law... it was never money.

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Not one New Testament saint... not even the Lord Jesus Christ Himself taught or preached a tithe of money. That speaks volumes in itself.

Jesus commended the Pharisees for tithing cummim, rue, herbs. Yet He never mentioned that they tithed money. He could have added that five-letter word in there, but he didn't.

Why did Peter not rebuke those who were selling their lands and bringing the price to him by telling them, 'Now you know 10% of this money goes to the Lord'?

Tithing was not money.

And as I pointed out earlier...

Every third year, the tithing was not taken anywhere. It went to widows, orphans and the Levites. And they came to your property for it, you did not take it to them.

Yet the churches will try to put you on a guilt trip if you tell them you decided to give the money to a poor couple or a orphanage instead of bringing it to them.

Be honest folks.

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Those are excellent examples of instances where people gave a lot more than 10% in the NT. There is, however, something more definite than just instances, and that's a NT commandment:

2 Corinthians 9:7- Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.


That is an excellent verse. Glad you brought it up. :Green What does the word "grudgingly" mean to you? In america a 10% "tip" is almost considered "cheap" with 15%-20% considered better. Yet many Christians "tip" the server of their meal a greater % than than they give to God their Saviour whom they profess to love with with all their heart. I don't know about you but I would be a little uncomfortable standing before God and telling him why I felt that he didn't even deserve a low end "tip" by todays standards after all the he gave me. :ooops Further, the "or of necessity" part actually implies that it IS needfull to give to God. If that was not the intent why would the verse end with "for God loveth a cheerful giver." instead of something along the lines of "God doesn't want you to give unless you feel like it". The verse is teaching that you should have a good atitude about giving not that you shouldn't give unless you feel like it.
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He does not want your money if you are giving it because you feel you have to (I gotta tithe 10%), or if you are upset at even giving a penny.


No, if that is why you are giving he wants you to get your heart right so you love to not have to... He doesn't want you to sit on what he gave you. :wink

Why did Peter not rebuke those who were selling their lands and bringing the price to him by telling them, 'Now you know 10% of this money goes to the Lord'?


Ummm I don't get your point here, ALL of that money, not 10% was going to the Lord.
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Yet the churches will try to put you on a guilt trip if you tell them you decided to give the money to a poor couple or a orphanage instead of bringing it to them.


Look at these verses right here.

"I Corinthians 9:9-15 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn . Doth God take care for oxen? Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope. If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things? If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ. Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel. "

That is rather clear that you should give to the church, not only to the church by any means though.
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