Tithe

[Kubel]

:thumb I agree!

Our pastor teaches that if a person doesn't tithe, that person is "under God's curse"--and my husband and I disagree with him. Believers are not "under a curse". We do believe in N.T. giving--and N. T. giving isn't always 10%. The word "tithe" means "a tenth". That's a good starting point, but there are no percentages given in Scriptures for the N. T. church, on how much to give. Most of the time, it is ALOT more than 10%. And when giving is more than 10%, it is NOT tithing! In the OT, tithing was NOT money--it was the "firstfruits" of flock, grain, oil, wine, etc.

Here's a really good read about the Christian and tithing:

http://www.gotquestions.org/tithing-Christian.html

In fact, the only time you were allowed to pay with money was:

1) You couldn't bring all your firstfruits (lived too far away).
2) You wanted to buy back your firstfruits (and if that's the case, you were given a fee, I think it was an extra 1/5th in addition to the Blue Book value of the tithe).

Anyway, our experiences are the same. Our pastor says that he doesn't want members to join if they don't intend to tithe (he's making it a requirement of all new members). I'm sort of untraditional when it comes to giving. When I joined, I was unemployed, but as soon as I started making some money, I gave a tithe. Then I began to look into it and study on tithing, and I came to the conclusion many here do (tithing = no, giving = yes). I also am under the conviction that we are to give anonymously (not many people share this position). A lot of people in the church raise their hands to give and it seems a big show is made about who gives what (when special collections are made). I find that totally contrary to what the Bible teaches. Didn't Jesus say one hand isn't even supposed to know what the other is giving? But perhaps I shouldn't be judging them because I really don't know their hearts.

On the other hand, I understand how some pastors feel having to be in charge of where money goes and how it is spent and where it is going to come from. Perhaps tight Christians are driving pastors to preach tithing. I guess that would be a hard position to be in. You would have to encourage giving without Christians feeling there is some obligation to give. It all comes down to the hearts of believers.

[gatorpreacher]

Tithing is important; giving is much more important. MY opinion, and this is my opinion...it is better to give of a cheerful heart than to be in "bondage" because you do not make enough money, or you are unemployed, etc. How do you teach a child who has got saved to tithe when they have no income. Sure you can give them an allowance, but what if that is not available?

My preference is let the Holy Spirit guide you and convict you. If you have to decide whether to pay the electric bill, or give a tithe..........pay the electric bill (where is the testimony to your neighbors and the lost, if your power is cut off) It is not a matter of little faith, it is a matter of Godly wisdom. Now, if you can't give a tithe or give, because you went out to eat three times this week and rented movies at Blockbuster twice.........then that is a different matter altogether.

Many pastor's preach and hold the position that EVERYBODY can tithe, and if you don't you are a God robber. They will use the platform of the work of God must go on......however God has already supplied the need for HIS church. In every church there are those, who are able to give well above a tithe, and don't. Remember give as thou hast been prospered........


Far too many christians are made to feel ashamed because they cannot "keep the pace" and while I am on it...WAY TOO MANY GOOD christian workers are being disqualified by not having a consistent "tithing pay record" in the church office; for the church leadership to assess.

gatorpreacher

[DaveW]

I think tithing is a Biblical PRINCIPLE (not NT command!) but I certainly would not require it - that is between you and God.

I think it is a good starting point however.

I went through the whole tithing thing with our church and explained that although I can't find NT command, nor "non-law" OT command, it is a principle that was in existence before the Law and therefore not restricted to it.
I said that I thought the Tithe was a supportable Bible principle, but not a command, and they can do with that what they will.

There is a clear difference in the Bible between a tithe and an offering though.

The firstfruits is technically something a little different, but closely related.

For what it's worth (and not wanting to sound judgemental) for those who give heartily the concept of a tithe generally doesn't worry them - call it what you will they will still give.

Those IN MY EXPERIENCE (and I am sure this is not universal) who argue vehemently against the tithe usually do not give much, and want to justify their position.
I am sure also that those who argue vehemently FOR the tithe have their issues too.

I think it is a good principle, but I also don't think it is anyone else business what you give to God.
It should be taught on (Tithes, offerings, firstfruits) but the actual giving should be between you and God.

I also think that maybe we should consider more than just financials in tithes and offerings by the way.

[zealyouthguy]

I think the issue always comes down to WHOSE money is it anyways?

I see a lot of folks who believe in "grace giving" in the NT. I don't completely agree with grace-giving mentality, because I do believe the tithe is a BIBLE principle.

Jesus didn't change or rebuke anyone for tithing, in fact he commended the Pharisees for tithing saying that they were doing something that they "ought to do". The issue really comes out that the next thing a person says is: We don't live by the law anymore... and that's true, but that's a "lost person's" argument. The lost persons will usually bring that up and then ask, why are you against pants on women, and we will quote some OT text. But Christians live by principles illustrated in the bible (example with pants/women, the principle is not "pants" the principle is 1)modesty and 2)distinction). The PRINCIPLE of the tithe existed well before the Law was written down, just like the principle of the sacrifice. Jesus speaks specifically of the sacrifice and it is confirmed that he died "once for all". The principle of the tithe didn't start with Abraham, it existed in the Garden... God had tree's that were his, that folks were not supposed to touch. A perfect illustration and reminder that although God had given the garden to Adam and Eve, it was still HIS garden.

I would think that giving under grace, we would be inspired to give MORE, rather than less and that the tithe would not be seen as such a burden, but typically those who claim to follow grace giving and are "anti-tithe" are folks who don't give much at all. Of course I would hope that wasn't the case, but if every church member gave faithfully, we could double our output of missionaries tomorrow.

And the principle exists in the NT:
1 Corinthians 16:2 2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

Matthew 10:9-14 9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, 10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat. 11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence. 12 And when ye come into an house, salute it. 13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

Luke 10:4-8 4 Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way. 5 And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house. 6 And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again. 7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house. 8 And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you:

Luke 10:16 16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

1 Corinthians 9:13-14 13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? 14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

Galatians 6:6 6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.

The early Christians, because they understood and saw the Grace of God, gave MORE LIBERALLY than the tithe:

Acts 4:34-36 34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, 35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need. 36 And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus,

2 Corinthians 8:1-4 1 Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit of the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia; 2 How that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality. 3 For to their power, I bear record, yea, and beyond their power they were willing of themselves; 4 Praying us with much intreaty that we would receive the gift, and take upon us the fellowship of the ministering to the saints.

So although I wouldn't say that we are bound by the LAW to tithe, I would say that the grace of God should free us up to give even more. And the principle illustrated in the NT is that it was done the exact same WAY as the tithe, the first day of the week... for the purpose of supporting the work of the Gospel.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

If one does a careful and prayerful study of tithing, one will have to come to the conclusion that tithing was not money at all. Tithing was corn, wheat, oil, and other products that were the result of the work of man's hands bringing an increase.

Deuteronomy 14 on tithing:

Deuteronomy 14:22-26 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year. And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always. And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee: Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose: And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

It is quite clear that money was not used for tithing at all. If we are going to demand tithing of the congregation, we should preach they bring in crops and oil, not money for tithing.

We are living under a different giving principle in our day... a giving with cheerfulness. As we purpose in our hearts, we are to give; not grudgingly (bitter), or of necessity (because the church demands we bring in 10% of our finances), but of a willing heart.

If you are taking money as tithes into the Church because your pastor demands it or preaches it, then you are taking it for the wrong reason.

Give what God wants you to give when giving money. If you want to tithe, then tithe of your fields, your business product, etc., but unless you are a counterfeiter, giving 10% of your money is not tithing.

I would not advise counterfeiting, btw.

[zealyouthguy]

If one does a careful and prayerful study of tithing, one will have to come to the conclusion that tithing was not money at all. Tithing was corn, wheat, oil, and other products that were the result of the work of man's hands bringing an increase.

Deuteronomy 14 on tithing:

Deuteronomy 14:22-26 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year. And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always. And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee: Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose: And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

It is quite clear that money was not used for tithing at all. If we are going to demand tithing of the congregation, we should preach they bring in crops and oil, not money for tithing.

We are living under a different giving principle in our day... a giving with cheerfulness. As we purpose in our hearts, we are to give; not grudgingly (bitter), or of necessity (because the church demands we bring in 10% of our finances), but of a willing heart.

If you are taking money as tithes into the Church because your pastor demands it or preaches it, then you are taking it for the wrong reason.

Give what God wants you to give when giving money. If you want to tithe, then tithe of your fields, your business product, etc., but unless you are a counterfeiter, giving 10% of your money is not tithing.

I would not advise counterfeiting, btw.

You're kidding about the tithing thing and the money thing right?

(p.s. you DO realize that the widow gave "two mites", and that there were people who were "money changers" (they were fleecing the people and making big bucks off of crooked exchange rates) at the temple, and that the temple even had it's own money minted... RIGHT? I mean you ARE joking about it right?)

And also... if God increases you in goats and eggs and chickens, sure you should tithe on those, but I always am amused by this angle of the argument...

[Standing Firm In Christ]

You're kidding about the tithing thing and the money thing right?

(p.s. you DO realize that the widow gave "two mites", and that there were people who were "money changers" (they were fleecing the people and making big bucks off of crooked exchange rates) at the temple, and that the temple even had it's own money minted... RIGHT? I mean you ARE joking about it right?)

And also... if God increases you in goats and eggs and chickens, sure you should tithe on those, but I always am amused by this angle of the argument...

I am not kidding at all. If we are going to preach tithing, we must preach true tithing. Tithing was not money at all.

Even Jesus, when mentioning tithing, spoke of it being of mint and anise and rue... spices, not money.

Tithes were brought into the storehouse (Mal. 3:8) so there would be meat in the house of God. Food for the necessity of the people of God.

Look at Deuteronomy 14:26 again. "...and thou shalt eat there before the Lord thy God."

When did the storehouse become the Church house? I cannot find it in the Word of God.

As I said, if you want to preach tithing, preach Biblical tithing. Money was not included in that which was tithing at all.

Money is in the offerings, not the tithing.

As to the widow and her two mites, she gave all she had, not a tenth of her possessions. What she gave was an offering, not a tithe.

[Jerry]

The Israelites were to bring in the firstfruits of their harvest because they were more agricultural than we are now - our firstfruits would be our money. 10% is 10%, whether it is money or fruit, grain, cattle, etc.

As ZYG has stated, there are tithing passages in the NT, including the epistles (as has been pointed out in other threads here on the subject).

The book of Proverbs is completely applicable to the NT Christian - ie. every single command in it can be directly applied today. That same book also states this:

Proverbs 3:9-10 Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase: So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine.

If you have any kind of income, you can tithe off of your gross. The only time you cannot tithe is when you do not have any oncome (that should be easy to follow).

As far as choosing either to pay bills or give the Lord your tithe, where is someone's faith? God promises to meet ALL our needs, including bills, when we are walking with Him. Give Him His due and trust Him to meet the rest of your needs. There are various promises to claim in this regard, including the passage above.

[Jerry]

When did the storehouse become the Church house? I cannot find it in the Word of God.

1 Corinthians 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

The storehouses of the OT were the temple and the local synagogues - the storehouse of the NT is the local NT church.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

If money were important as a tithe, Moses would have instructed that the agricultural products be sold and the silver be used to tithe. But he did not. It is quite evident that money was used in Moses' day, else silver would not have been mentioned.

Your logic of agricultural then and money today is not logical in the least.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

1 Corinthians 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

The storehouses of the OT were the temple and the local synagogues - the storehouse of the NT is the local NT church.

That doesn't say the "store" was the Church, nor does it say what is laid in store. If one wants to use store in 1 Corinthians 16 in the sense of Malachi's tithes, then one needs to store food as Malachi taught.

[Jerry]

Genesis 14:16 And he brought back all the goods, and also brought again his brother Lot, and his goods, and the women also, and the people.

Genesis 14:17-20 And the king of Sodom went out to meet him after his return from the slaughter of Chedorlaomer, and of the kings that were with him, at the valley of Shaveh, which is the king's dale. And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth: And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

Abraham gave Melchizedek tithes of the spoil (and possibly of his own possessions) - I am sure that included far more than just produce.

Genesis 28:22 And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.

Again, more than agricultural products were in view.

If one wants to use store in 1 Corinthians 16 in the sense of Malachi's tithes, then one needs to store food as Malachi taught.

Don't you share the abundance of your harvest with your pastors and preachers (and their families)?

[Standing Firm In Christ]

If tithing of money were important, Christ would have mentioned it.

Luke 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Why did not Christ rebuke them at that time for not tithing money if tithing of money was to be done as well? The answer is obvious... He did not rebuke them for not tithing money because money was not demanded in tithing.

Tithing of money is man-made doctrine and not to be found anywhere in the Word of God... but giving is commanded.

[zealyouthguy]

If money were important as a tithe, Moses would have instructed that the agricultural products be sold and the silver be used to tithe. But he did not. It is quite evident that money was used in Moses' day, else silver would not have been mentioned.

Your logic of agricultural then and money today is not logical in the least.

Your history of money is what is lacking here, Silver and Gold in the times of Moses were precious metals used for decorative and sacred purposes. It's a non-sequitor.


And unless YOU eat money my friend, it's a laughable discussion. Money evolved as man moved further from his agricultural roots. To follow YOUR logic, you should also be preaching that we should do no endeavor except agricultural endeavors.

EVERYTHING, all wealth comes down somewhere to milk, eggs, chickens, goats, etc. Conspicusously missing in your argument is the fact that the word: t@buw'ah (used in ALL the following verses) means: income, i.e. produce (literally or figuratively):--fruit, gain, increase, revenue.

Genesis 47:24 24 And it shall come to pass in the increase, that ye shall give the fifth part unto Pharaoh, and four parts shall be your own, for seed of the field, and for your food, and for them of your households, and for food for your little ones.

Exodus 23:10 10 And six years thou shalt sow thy land, and shalt gather in the fruits thereof:

Leviticus 19:25 25 And in the fifth year shall ye eat of the fruit thereof, that it may yield unto you the increase thereof: I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 23:39 39 Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath.

Leviticus 25:3 3 Six years thou shalt sow thy field, and six years thou shalt prune thy vineyard, and gather in the fruit thereof;

Leviticus 25:7 7 And for thy cattle, and for the beast that are in thy land, shall all the increase thereof be meat.

Leviticus 25:12 12 For it is the jubile; it shall be holy unto you: ye shall eat the increase thereof out of the field.

Leviticus 25:15 15 According to the number of years after the jubile thou shalt buy of thy neighbour, and according unto the number of years of the fruits he shall sell unto thee:

Leviticus 25:16 16 According to the multitude of years thou shalt increase the price thereof, and according to the fewness of years thou shalt diminish the price of it: for according to the number of the years of the fruits doth he sell unto thee.

Leviticus 25:20 20 And if ye shall say, What shall we eat the seventh year? behold, we shall not sow, nor gather in our increase:

Leviticus 25:21 21 Then I will command my blessing upon you in the sixth year, and it shall bring forth fruit for three years.

Leviticus 25:22 22 And ye shall sow the eighth year, and eat yet of old fruit until the ninth year; until her fruits come in ye shall eat of the old store.

Numbers 18:30 30 Therefore thou shalt say unto them, When ye have heaved the best thereof from it, then it shall be counted unto the Levites as the increase of the threshingfloor, and as the increase of the winepress.

Deuteronomy 14:22 22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.

Deuteronomy 14:28 28 At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates:

Deuteronomy 16:15 15 Seven days shalt thou keep a solemn feast unto the LORD thy God in the place which the LORD shall choose: because the LORD thy God shall bless thee in all thine increase, and in all the works of thine hands, therefore thou shalt surely rejoice.

Deuteronomy 22:9 9 Thou shalt not sow thy vineyard with divers seeds: lest the fruit of thy seed which thou hast sown, and the fruit of thy vineyard, be defiled.

Deuteronomy 26:12 12 When thou hast made an end of tithing all the tithes of thine increase the third year, which is the year of tithing, and hast given it unto the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat within thy gates, and be filled;

Deuteronomy 33:14 14 And for the precious fruits brought forth by the sun, and for the precious things put forth by the moon,

Joshua 5:12 12 And the manna ceased on the morrow after they had eaten of the old corn of the land; neither had the children of Israel manna any more; but they did eat of the fruit of the land of Canaan that year.

2 Kings 8:6 6 And when the king asked the woman, she told him. So the king appointed unto her a certain officer, saying, Restore all that was hers, and all the fruits of the field since the day that she left the land, even until now.

2 Chronicles 31:5 5 And as soon as the commandment came abroad, the children of Israel brought in abundance the firstfruits of corn, wine, and oil, and honey, and of all the increase of the field; and the tithe of all things brought they in abundantly.

2 Chronicles 32:28 28 Storehouses also for the increase of corn, and wine, and oil; and stalls for all manner of beasts, and cotes for flocks.

Nehemiah 9:37 37 And it yieldeth much increase unto the kings whom thou hast set over us because of our sins: also they have dominion over our bodies, and over our cattle, at their pleasure, and we are in great distress.

Job 31:12 12 For it is a fire that consumeth to destruction, and would root out all mine increase.

Psalms 107:37 37 And sow the fields, and plant vineyards, which may yield fruits of increase.

Proverbs 3:9 9 Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase:

Proverbs 3:14 14 For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold.

Proverbs 8:19 19 My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.

Proverbs 10:16 16 The labour of the righteous tendeth to life: the fruit of the wicked to sin.

Proverbs 14:4 4 Where no oxen are, the crib is clean: but much increase is by the strength of the ox.

Proverbs 15:6 6 In the house of the righteous is much treasure: but in the revenues of the wicked is trouble.

Proverbs 16:8 8 Better is a little with righteousness than great revenues without right.

Proverbs 18:20 20 A man's belly shall be satisfied with the fruit of his mouth; and with the increase of his lips shall he be filled.

Ecclesiastes 5:10 10 He that loveth silver shall not be satisfied with silver; nor he that loveth abundance with increase: this is also vanity.

Isaiah 23:3 3 And by great waters the seed of Sihor, the harvest of the river, is her revenue; and she is a mart of nations.

Isaiah 30:23 23 Then shall he give the rain of thy seed, that thou shalt sow the ground withal; and bread of the increase of the earth, and it shall be fat and plenteous: in that day shall thy cattle feed in large pastures.

Jeremiah 2:3 3 Israel was holiness unto the LORD, and the firstfruits of his increase: all that devour him shall offend; evil shall come upon them, saith the LORD.

Jeremiah 12:13 13 They have sown wheat, but shall reap thorns: they have put themselves to pain, but shall not profit: and they shall be ashamed of your revenues because of the fierce anger of the LORD.

Ezekiel 48:18 18 And the residue in length over against the oblation of the holy portion shall be ten thousand eastward, and ten thousand westward: and it shall be over against the oblation of the holy portion; and the increase thereof shall be for food unto them that serve the city.

Notice how God clearly illustrates (using the same hebrew word) that revenue, income, increase were all equitable for purchases (land, gold, silver listed above).


Following the circular logic that was started, we would have to also believe that the paper "money" you pay your bills with, buy your food with, get online with, is not under God's control. Of course... ALL of your increase is determined by how much of the paper you have...

I can't believe that folks would like to use the "fiat currency" argument to against giving God the tithe, and especially people who don't grow their own food and are even more hooked on the fiat that those who at least raise animals, farm, etc.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Scripture clearly shows in Deuteronomy 14 that the money (silver) was used to buy the tithes, not to pay tithes.

Silver was used as money in Moses' day. It is a non-sequitor. They were not commanded to tithe with the silver, but to purchase the tithes.