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God has stated that salvation is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all believers (Rom. 4:16); therefore, all who believe in Jesus are eternally secure. Once one is saved, he is always saved; no justified person can ever perish. Entry into eternal glory is so certain for all who have been justified that God can refer to it in the past tense; whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. . . . Who shall lay any thing to the charge of Gods elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? . . . We are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord (Rom. 8:30-39). The Lord Jesus said that He gives unto [His people] eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Fathers hand. I and my Father are one (John 10:28-30). Just as all who believe in Jesus Christ are infallibly saved from sins penalty and certain of eternal glory, so the Lord frees His people from their former bondage to sin, so that all the justified characteristically live for Him. God puts His laws into their mind, and writes them in their hearts (Heb. 8:10). 2 Corinthians 5:17 promises that if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. Those whom God hath saved . . . not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began are also called . . . with an holy calling (2 Tim. 1:9). Good works do not justify or help justify anyone before God, nor do they keep anyone saved; God has promised eternal life to all who simply trust His Son, and He saves them and keeps them saved simply by His grace.

Love,
Madeline

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[quote="Bakershalfdozen"]
Kathie,

Most dispensationalists? You'll find that there are many different forms of dispensationalism.

Most dispensationalists I know believe that the dispensations are simply different eras in God's timetable. The church age is different from the period of the Law but salvation has always been by faith in God. Noah believed God, Abraham believed God, etc.
[/quote]

Yes, but Noah would not have been saved unless he had built an ark and gotten inside it as commanded.

Adam was told NOT to eat the fruit of the tree...when he did he lost his salvation. Right? Was he saved before he eat the fruit?-you bet he was!

Why didn't any of the OT saints go straight to heaven if salvation is the same throughout ALL dispensations?

What about David? When he broke ALL ten of the commandments when he bedded Bathsheeba. Was he saved before, during or after?

Did God take away the Holy Spirit when David pleaded with God not to in Ps 51?

Is it possible that David was a special case in God's divine plan?

After all Enoch and Elijah never died but we tell the unsaved that the wages of sin is death and that it is appointed unto man ONCE to die!

This makes a very interesting study.

Doc H

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[quote="Doc H"]
Adam was told NOT to eat the fruit of the tree...when he did he lost his salvation. Right? Was he saved before he eat the fruit?-you bet he was!

Doc H
[/quote]

Adam lost his salvation???? He was cast out of the earthly Garden, but he actually LOST his salvation, too???????????

Can you show the scriptures that support that statement?

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no he didn't lose his salvation. Remember the Lord made him a covering and Adam and Eve accepted it after they have been attempting to cover their own nakedness with fig leaves. (nakedness is a picture of sin. Accepting covering from the LORD is a picture of Christ)

But I don't think there was salvation in the first place. Adam had a relationship with the Lord, and he lost it. salvation occur after sins entered the world.

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WOW, Adam lost his salvation????(is there an echo in here?)

Adam sinned and was punished. He still had a relationship with God but not a direct line like before. He became fallen man. He didn't have salvation before the fall because he didn't need it. He was sinless up until that point and was in fellowship with God.

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[quote="Doc H"]
Yes, but Noah would not have been saved unless he had built an ark and gotten inside it as commanded.

Adam was told NOT to eat the fruit of the tree...when he did he lost his salvation. Right? Was he saved before he eat the fruit?-you bet he was!

Why didn't any of the OT saints go straight to heaven if salvation is the same throughout ALL dispensations?

What about David? When he broke ALL ten of the commandments when he bedded Bathsheeba. Was he saved before, during or after?

Did God take away the Holy Spirit when David pleaded with God not to in Ps 51?

Is it possible that David was a special case in God's divine plan?

After all Enoch and Elijah never died but we tell the unsaved that the wages of sin is death and that it is appointed unto man ONCE to die!

This makes a very interesting study.

Doc H
[/quote]

By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. -Hebrews 11:7

Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect. -Romans 4:9-14

So we see that the work is never what saves, but is always evidence of the faith. Noah was saved, and [b]because he was saved[/b], he built the ark and got in as commanded. This is the same thing as "if you're a Christian and go out and kill someone, are you still saved?" The answer is, technically, YES, but more correctly, true Christians don't do that, so it will likely be a sign that one wasn't saved in the first place--by the salvation that is by faith.

Adam was not "saved" before the fall. It's an unscriptural assumption to say that. He was never lost until he fell! Else what was he saved from? We cannot understand anything of "salvation" until after the fall.

The OT saints went to Abraham's bosom until Christ could rise and be the firstfruits of them that rose from the dead. This shows that they were saved by Christ, and their salvation could not be realized until Christ had risen. To say it means their works had anything to do with being saved is to say something that the Scripture doesn't--and that it, in fact, denies.

David was saved before, during, and after. He only prayed to God to restore unto him the [b]joy[/b] of his salvation.

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit was not until Pentecost. That does not mean salvation was different, but it means we had access to the throne of grace and prayer, without having to go to the temple, and could be priests unto God. And furthermore, it never says God took His Holy Spirit from David, so I don't really see the point of this questioning.

To say David was a special case is to be biblically lazy. The honest thing to do would be to understand everyone of David's time period ("dispensation," if you will) as having the same requirements for salvation as David did. Psalm 51 shows us that his salvation was by grace, as do all of the Psalms. Paul references these to speak of the present salvation as well, as being the same.

The wages of sin is spiritual death, and Enoch and Elijah had no life until they were quickened by God. "It is appointed unto man once to die" does not make much sense with the rapture, so we need to understand it as a general rule. The day when a person leaves his body for good, and moves into a spiritual existence, is the day of that person's death. Enoch and Elijah will not take earthly bodies into Heaven, so if they are not yet dead, then they will surely die in that sense.

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Just as the Old Testament promised eternal glory to all who trust in Christ, the New Testament is filled with promises that all who believe in the Lord Jesus will be saved. Twenty sample passages, out of many more that could be referenced, from only three New Testament books (John, Acts, and Romans), are quoted below. There is no way one who is honest with these passages can conclude that one who has believed on the Lord Jesus Christ is still under Gods wrath, or uncertain of a future eternity in His kingdom.

1.) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God (John 1:12-13). The moment you believe on Jesus Christ, you are born again, and become a child of God. Since as many believe become the sons of God, you become a child of God by faith alone.

2.) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God (John 3:14-18). Whosoever believeth is promised eternal life; God says all who believe should not perish and guarantees that they have everlasting life. He could not promise this if trust in Christ was not enough to justify and make heaven certain; God would have to say whosoever believes, and does everything else also needed, will get everlasting life then; only some who believe get it. The Bible also promises that he that believeth on him is not condemned. Since is represents the present tense, all who believe are immediately freed from condemnation.

3.) He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him (John 3:36). Once again, one is said to get everlasting life the moment he believes. Hath is present tense; everlasting life is the present possession of the believer. (Consider as well that he has everlasting life, not temporary or conditional life; since everlasting life lasts forever, one cannot have it for only a short time, so as soon as a sinner believes and is given it his eternity is certain; once he is saved, he is always saved.) He does not need to wait until he dies to find out if his good works outweigh his bad works and he can get into heaven; Jesus promised that all who believe immediately have everlasting life, so it is so, and baptism has no part in it.

4.) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life (John 5:24). Here again, the one who believes gets everlasting life as a present tense possession (hath), and is likewise assured that he shall not come into condemnation but has already passed from a state of death to a state of life. If one believer were ever condemned, then Christs shall not would be a lie.

5.) And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst (John 6:35). Once again, since Christ means shall when He says it, all who believe are saved.

6.) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day (John 6:40). If it is the Fathers will that every one who believes on the Son has everlasting life, and will rise in the resurrection of the just, who dares to say otherwise?

7.) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life (John 6:47). Either one has eternal life by faith alone, or the Lord Jesus Christs verily, verily is not true.

8.) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? (John 11:25-26). The Lord Jesus promised that all who believe shall have eternal life, and shall never die the second death (Revelation 21:8) in the lake of fire.

9.) But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name (John 20:31). John 20:31 tells us the reason the gospel of John was written; it was that we might have eternal life by believing in Jesus Christ. We therefore get eternal life by believing in Jesus Christ.

10.) To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins (Acts 10:43). Peter affirmed that all the Old Testament taught forgiveness by faith in Christ.

11.) And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses (Acts 13:39). If all that believe are justified, nothing subsequent to belief is required to receive justification.

12.) And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house (Acts 16:31). Pauls shalt be saved requires that all who believe are immediately saved, without any other preconditions.

13.) For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek (Romans 1:16). Either the gospel is that we are saved by faith alone, or every one that believeth.

14.) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law (Romans 3:22-28). God clearly affirms that the righteousness of God . . . [is] upon all them that believe so we have Christs righteousness credited to us the moment of faith. At that moment we are redeemed and Gods wrath is propitiated (appeased, placated, satisfied). This way of salvation by faith alone leaves no room for boasting, because we are justified by faith apart from our works.

15.) For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness (Romans 4:3-5). Just like Abraham was counted righteous when he believed, so everyone who believes is counted righteous. To believe on him excludes working to be saved; genuine faith and good works are two sides of the same coin. One who seeks to do good or does works to be saved may have intellectual knowledge about Christ, but he does not believe on Him at all since he does not believe what He promised in His Word about salvation, he is a wicked and unbelieving rebel, regardless of his morality, sincerity, religiosity, or knowledge of Christian doctrine.

16.) And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also (Romans 4:11). Divine righteousness was put to Abrahams account when he believed, and it is also credited to all who believe today as well, before and apart from any religious ritual, such as circumcision or baptism.

17.) He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 4:20-5:1). God promises that Christs righteousness is imputed to us when we believe on His Son, and tells us that we possess peace with Him and are justified the moment we believe. Who dares deny it?

18.) As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed (Romans 9:33). If whosoever believeth will not be ashamed when he stands before God, one is saved by faith alone.

19.) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth (Romans 10:4). If the law demands are fully satisfied through the forgiveness and imputed righteousness received by every one that believeth, we are justified by faith alone.

20.) For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed (Romans 10:11). When God says whosoever and shall not, He means exactly what He says. No believer can possibly perish.

It's always been the same. Salvation by Grace through Faith. :)

Love,
Madeline

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Yes you are correct in a sense that Adam did not lose his salvation because he was created perfect and sinless.

So what happened when he broke God's commandment?

He died spiritually and began to die physically just as God said he would.

God then shed the blood of an animal in order to cover his and Eve's sin. Were they then perfectly sinless until physical death? No, of course not they now were under the dispensation of conscience. How were they made right with God after the initial sacrifice? Did they simply lose their fellowship if they did not offer a blood sacrifice or did they lose their salvation? Were they permanently born of the Spirit like we are?

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I didn't say anything about Adam, so you're probably not addressing me. But interesting concept, the 'dispensation of conscience'. Since we are not told very much about Adam and Eve after the fall, I suggest we look at the scripture that tells us more about the 'dispensation of conscience', i.e. Rom. 2:13-15.

'For not the hearers of the law are just before God but the doers of the law shall be justified. (This is faith/belief being proved by works.). For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves; which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another'.

In other words, these people who did not have the law were 'justified' by obeying their conscience. That is to say, their conscience was God's message to them, if they obeyed that message, they were justified. So what does this tell us about Adam and Eve? They lived, of course, before the law was given, but they obeyed God's message to sacrifice and they were justified. No one can prove from scripture that a justified person was ever made unjustified, so they never lost it, i.e. they never lost their salvation.

Love,
Madeline

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We all continue to sin after being saved, and offending the law in one point makes us a guilty as offending the law in all points, there are no "Big/Little" sins,...sin is sin,...period.

The law requires a "death for each and every sin", the reason Jesus died for the sins of the "Whole world".

"IF", it were possible for us to lose our salvation, that would mean Jesus "DID NOT" die for the sin we committed and which caused us to lose our salvation,

"Futhermore",

The only way we could regain salvation would be for Jesus to return and "DIE AGAIN" to met the law's requirement of "death for the sin we committed".

Folks say, I repented, God forgave, but God "NEVER" forgives sin, the law won't allow it, the reason Jesus came to "Fulfil the law" by "DYING".

If I "forgave" you of a debt, the debt would still be owed, no matter how much you repented of the debt,

in the garden, Jesus prayed, "IF IT'S POSSIBLE", let this cup pass from me, but there are no exceptions to the law, even for Jesus, he still had to die to satisfy the law's requirement, "Death for sin".

Jesus isn't returning to die for anymore sins, your debt to the law is either 100% paid, (not under the law) or you've never been saved.

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The OSAS doctrine has troubled me recently. As I was reading my bible I came to the realization that OSAS might not be correct. There are several verses that I believe blatantly contradict this doctrine.

"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." (King James Bible, John 15:6)

{Originally quoted modern version said "remain in me"}

To remain means you were once in Christ. That seems to suggest that you can be a saved Christian at one point in time and then leave and those that leave will be thrown into the fire.

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (King James Bible, Philippians 2:12)

Note this letter is written to early Christians so they have already accepted Christ. Why would we need to work out our salvation with fear if the day we accept Christ we are saved.

"Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck." (King James Bible, 1 Timothy 1:19)

To make a shipwreck of our faith would mean we had faith and lost it.

"For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning." (King James Bible, 2 Peter 2:20)

This verse seems to reinforce the one above that a true saved Christian can leave the faith and if that happens they will be worse off.

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." (King James Bible, Mark 13:13)

This verse also says one must preserve to the end to be saved.

There are more similar to these but I can

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