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Dispensational Salvation

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Hi Janet,

Don't get ahead of me on this. I am not trying to suggest the Jesus was not pre-existent.

All I am saying is that the teaching that "all men looked forward to the cross" is a non Biblical idea.

The idea that men in the OT "dispensation" (a very Biblical word in fact) were saved in the same manner as a Christian in the Body of Christ is simply not true.

For one thing, if they were, and I say if, why did they not go to heaven as the believer did today?

Exactly, Christ hadn't died as of yet. So if the sacrifice had not been payed, how could the way be opened? (Read the book of Hebrews!)


To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, says the NT.

The OT has no such idea at all.


I think that most of the confusion comes from equating the OT hope as being the same hope that you and I have.

No OT saint was looking forward to going to heaven. We are.
No OT saint was sealed by the Holy Spirit. We are.
No OT saint was eternally secure. We are.
No OT saint went directly to heaven upon departing this earthly tabernacle. We do.
No OT saint had Christ indwelling him. We do.
No OT saint was in the church which is His body. We are.

Those are enough difference for me to take into consideration that OT salvation is not NT salvation.

Now, slow down and read that again. I did NOT say that the blood of Christ was not the efficacious medium for said salvation. :D

God bless,

Calvary


Amen!!! :goodpost:

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Hi Janet,

Don't get ahead of me on this. I am not trying to suggest the Jesus was not pre-existent.

All I am saying is that the teaching that "all men looked forward to the cross" is a non Biblical idea.

The idea that men in the OT "dispensation" (a very Biblical word in fact) were saved in the same manner as a Christian in the Body of Christ is simply not true.

For one thing, if they were, and I say if, why did they not go to heaven as the believer did today?

Exactly, Christ hadn't died as of yet. So if the sacrifice had not been payed, how could the way be opened? (Read the book of Hebrews!)


To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, says the NT.

The OT has no such idea at all.


I think that most of the confusion comes from equating the OT hope as being the same hope that you and I have.

No OT saint was looking forward to going to heaven. We are.
No OT saint was sealed by the Holy Spirit. We are.
No OT saint was eternally secure. We are.
No OT saint went directly to heaven upon departing this earthly tabernacle. We do.
No OT saint had Christ indwelling him. We do.
No OT saint was in the church which is His body. We are.

Those are enough difference for me to take into consideration that OT salvation is not NT salvation.

Now, slow down and read that again. I did NOT say that the blood of Christ was not the efficacious medium for said salvation. :D

God bless,

Calvary


Excellent post Calvary (BTW did you know that according to the modern versions you should call yourself "Skull"?), :D

Dispensational salvation is an extremely interesting topic.

It makes the Scriptures make more sense without having to go to commentaries in order to explain the NUMEROUS not just a FEW 'difficult' passages which 'seem' to teach salvation by FAITH plus WORKS and loss of salvation.

If works in James 2 is simply a demonstration of a born again believer's faith then what about 'backslidder's'?

However, if James applies doctrinally to the Twelve Tribes of Israel only, then we have a completely new ball game.

Please note that I am not saying that there is no application of James 2 to the NT saint.

Still studying!

Doc H

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Thanks.

One can do well if he simply remebers that there is a principle of Biblical hermenuetics called the Double Application.

That a verse or passage can apply or speak to a person, event or thing that is both historical and or prophetical at the same time depending upon the focus.

A great example of this principle in action is found in

Hos 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

That this is the nation of Israel leaves no doubt in the context.

And then we find it applied to the person of our Lord Jesus as well,

Mat 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

The book of James holds many such double applications, there is a strict and literal interpretation that will find much material on the Time of Jacob's Trouble, yet it contains a wealth of info for the NT believer as well.

But one must never forget, ALL scripture is profitable for the man of God.

Balance is the key.

God bless,

Calvary

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We had a discussion about this very subject tonight in church. It concerned a missionary calling our pastor about coming to speak at our church during our missionary conference we will be having in May. Our pastor always questions all speakers--he will not allow anyone to speak at the church who teaches "contrary" to Biblical doctrine. To make a long story short, this missionary turned out to be a Ruckmanite (a follower of the teachings of Peter Ruckman). Peter Ruckman teaches "dispensational salvation"--in the OT, people were saved by "works" -- discounting Romans 4, which teaches salvation by grace thru faith.Therefore, our pastor told this man that he would not allow this man to speak at our church and this guy just went on a tirade against our pastor.

I would suggest to go to David Cloud's website and read Bruce Lackey's article "Salvation Is The Same In The Old Testament And The New", then read the follow-up by David Cloud.

http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/salvationot.htm

http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/salvationot2.htm

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Just something to think about is the gospel that Paul defended in Galations 1 the same as the everlasting gospel mentioned in Revelation?


There is only one Gospel - different passages may use different words to describe it, but God says He only has ONE GOSPEL and anyone who has another one is damned. See Galatians 1.

I agree that dispensational salvation is pure heresy - and like several have said, it is a cop out for those who don't understand certain passages. Instead of putting all the passages together and reconciling them, they are explained away and/or made to contradict the rest of the Bible. Yes, we agree on how to be saved in this dispensation - but it is grasping at straws to make the Bible teach different plans of salvation in different periods because someone can't figure out what is being said.

For example, Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Oh look! Another way of salvation! NOT! What do all the contexts that use phrases like this have in common? They are referring to the Tribulation period when many will face severe persecution and possibly be martyred for their faith. Jesus is telling them to be faithful and endure, and He will deliver them physically when He returns. It is not referring to being saved from sins, but being saved from the judgments and persecutions that will happen during that period of time. The warnings are to believers in that period - not telling an unbeliever HOW to be saved.

Mark 13:12-13 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Matthew 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Context, context, context - the first rule of Bible interpretation.

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All I am saying is that the teaching that "all men looked forward to the cross" is a non Biblical idea.


They looked forward to the Messiah who would die in their place as a Substitute. This is seen in Genesis 3 - where we have the first promises of the Messiah after the first sin. The issue isn't how much knowledge or understanding they had, but the fact that they all looked forward to the Messiah.


For one thing, if they were, and I say if, why did they not go to heaven as the believer did today?

Exactly, Christ hadn't died as of yet. So if the sacrifice had not been payed, how could the way be opened? (Read the book of Hebrews!)


Your point? Reading the book of Hebrews shows that until Christ's blood was shed and brought into Heaven, no one could dwell eternally in the presence of God. OT saints were saved on credit - but the payment wasn't made until Christ shed His blood and died on the cross. Their sins were covered by looking forward to the coming Messiah who would be their Substitute, but they were not taken away until His blood was actually shed and brought into Heaven. That is why ALL saints now go to Heaven, and ALL OT saints were taken out of Abraham's Bosom and brought to Heaven by Jesus Christ - until this happened, they could not dwell in the presence of God. It is not a different plan of salvation - it is the same plan, but it was not finished yet - now it is.


No OT saint was looking forward to going to heaven. We are.


This is not referring to the Temple:

Psalms 23:6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

Psalms 73:24-26 Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory. Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee. My flesh and my heart faileth: but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion for ever.


No OT saint was eternally secure. We are.


That's a stretch. There is no OT passage that teaches you can lose your salvation. Yes, there are passages that teach if a righteous person walks in wickedness, they will lose their LIFE - that is not the same as losing their salvation.


Those are enough difference for me to take into consideration that OT salvation is not NT salvation.


If you word if differently, then you can make it sound different...

HOW TO BE SAVED is the same in all dispensations - the "house rules" (which is what dispensation literally means) are different. Don't equate different rules that we are to LIVE BY to please the Lord with different plans/ways to be SAVED BY.

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Amen Jerry!

The OT is full of pictures and types of Christ starting from when God first clothed Adam and Eve, all the way to the sacrifices performed every year by the levitical priesthood.

A person may not have known the name "Jesus Christ" but they most certainly knew that a sacrifice must be given for sins. They knew that God would provide a reconciliation for sins. That's what they trusted in. That God would provide a way of reconciliation. We simply trust that God has already provided a way and that way is through his Son.

God bless!

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No OT saint was looking forward to going to heaven. We are.
No OT saint was sealed by the Holy Spirit. We are.
No OT saint was eternally secure. We are.
No OT saint went directly to heaven upon departing this earthly tabernacle. We do.
No OT saint had Christ indwelling him. We do.
No OT saint was in the church which is His body. We are.

If that's the same, then I guess I can't understand English.


I would ask again if you could present one scriptural proof that men in the OT "looked forward" to the cross of Calvary.

And yes it does matter how much understanding they had Jerry. You are saying that they looked forward to something that they didn't understand? How in the world could someone do that? How could anyone have a hope in something that they had no idea about?

Sounds pretty mystical to me.


The NT is so abundantly clear that Christ in us, sealed by the Spirit, one Body, etc... are things that were not revealed unto the sons of men in ages past that I find it mind boggling that men continue to sing the same old song that "saints in the OT looked forward to the cross, while we look back". There is not one iota of scriptural proof to back those kinds of statements up. In fact, there is an overabundance of verses that flat out negate that kind of thinking.

God bless,

Calvary

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And yes it does matter how much understanding they had Jerry. You are saying that they looked forward to something that they didn't understand? How in the world could someone do that? How could anyone have a hope in something that they had no idea about?


:lol: Nothing like being determined to push a wrong view that contradicts Scripture...

1 Peter 1:10-12 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Nope, they didn't understand it all - they just received what was given to them by faith.


The NT is so abundantly clear that Christ in us, sealed by the Spirit, one Body, etc... are things that were not revealed unto the sons of men in ages past that I find it mind boggling that men continue to sing the same old song that "saints in the OT looked forward to the cross, while we look back".


You continue to mix apples and oranges. No one said that this dispensation is the same as all others - what we have said is that HOW to be saved is the same. What God does in the believer AFTER salvation is not to be mixed with HOW to be saved in the first place.


There is not one iota of scriptural proof to back those kinds of statements up. In fact, there is an overabundance of verses that flat out negate that kind of thinking.


All I see is YOU flat out ignoring and contradicting the various passages of Scripture - such as Romans 4 and Galatians - that teach salvation is the same; that David and Abraham got saved the same way - by faith alone.

From the first sin, we have the first promise of the coming Messiah who would be bruised by the Devil, who would die in our place as our Substitute (and we have the type of the lamb or other animal being killed, blood shed, coated with skins) - even Eve believed that, as we can see from Genesis 4, the very next chapter.

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:goodpost:

If Nebuchadnezzar knew enough to say the fourth man in the fire "is like the Son of God," I don't think the people of God at the time were quite as in the dark as some seem to think.

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