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Dispensational Salvation


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[quote="KJB_Princess"]
Partial converts? What are those? lol

Either you're saved or you aren't saved. You can't be both. :D
[/quote]

Acts 26:28-29
(28) Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.
(29) And Paul said, I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am, except these bonds.

Acts 24:24-25
(24) And after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, which was a Jewess, he sent for Paul, and heard him concerning the faith in Christ.
(25) And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee.

Edit: There are a few things that happen in the heart before salvation. These people were enlightened of truth, and convicted of sin, and they rejected Christ.
Awakening,

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I believe the Hebrews verses are hypothetical. It's all about what would happen if we could lose our salvation, but we can't and so it's showing us what a blessing that is.

Katy-Anne

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I understand that, Katy-Anne...I'm not promoting dispensational salvation, just discussing it...and asking questions because there's a few things I don't fully understand. :D

It's one of those things I'm not gonna really understand till I get to heaven...

Another question...when we get saved, we get the Holy Spirit dwelling inside of us, right? That's how we know we are saved, because we can feel His presence..even when we stray from the Lord, we feel that tug of the Holy Spirit trying to lead us back to Him. In the Old Testament, wouldn't it have been a little different? David asked that the holy spirit wouldn't be taken from him...

Psalm 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

Why would he be asking God this unless it were possible for God to cast him out of His presence, and take the holy spirit from him?

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Hi KJB_Princess!

[quote="KJB_Princess"]
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Actually the "if" is saying that "if they shall fall away"...the "if" is not in verse 4, such as "for if it is impossible"...now that would be hypothetical.


I've read these verses over and over...and re-read the chapter over and over...and the context still proves it's not hypothetical.

If it was talking about false converts, then it basically says they can't get saved? I've heard of several false converts getting saved...so that can't be the right application, can it?

I'm not saying it clearly shows dispensational salvation either. It's one of those really deep passages in Scripture, and many people have twisted it to mean something it doesn't say.
[/quote]

Heb. 6:4-8, 'For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto [b]repentance[/b]; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame. ...........But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned'.

The very first and most obvious fact to note is that this passage appears in the book written to the Hebrews. Hebrews, like the Old Testament, is [b]not primarily concerned with salvation[/b], but with millennial blessings, so we will move on. The next thing we must note is the reference to repentance in verse 6. It is Not A Message Of Salvation will prove from scripture, [b]repentance was never for salvation[/b], it was for earthly blessings, and in the Acts period (during which Hebrews was written) the blessing that was promised was entrance into the Land of Israel for the millennial blessings. It is not coincidental that the writer of Hebrews says in verse 8 says, 'that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing'. What is the curse that is alluded to in this verse? Is the lose of salvation ever referred to as a curse? It is not, mostly because there is no loss of salvation. What is referred to as a curse is the loss of the [b]right of entrance into the Land[/b]. Ps. 37:22, 'For such as be blessed of Him, shall inherit the earth (Hebrew is eretz' and should be 'Land'); and they that be [b]cursed[/b] of Him shall be [b]cut off[/b]'. Verse 9 explains what it means to be 'cut off'. 'For evildoers shall be [b]cut off[/b]; but those that wait upon the Lord, [b]they shall inherit the earth[/b] (again it is 'eretz' and should be translated 'land', Land of Israel)'. And verses 28-29, '.....For the Lord loveth judgment, and forsaketh not His saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be [b]cut off[/b]. The righteous shall [b]inherit the land[/b], and dwell therein for ever'. What we learn from these passages is that to be [b]blessed is to inherit the Land during the millennium, and to be cursed is to be denied entrance into the Land for millennial blessings[/b].

How are we to understand the phrase, 'whose end it is to be burned'? For that, we must turn to Matthew 13:41-43, 'The Son of Man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity: And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be weeping and wailing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father........'. I believe a few words of clarification are called for.

1) The phrase 'furnace of fire' does not mean the traditional view of hell. It is [b]in reference to the countries outside the Land which will not enjoy the blessings that the righteous in the Land will enjoy[/b].

2) This passage in Matthew speaks of two groups. One group consists of those already in the land at His coming who will be cast out because of their unrighteousness. The other group are those who will be gathered and then judged at His coming. This judgment is described in Ezek. 20:34-40. It describes the gathering of the dispersed of Israel (verse 34), their judgment (verse 35) and the fact that some will not be allowed entrance into the Land (verse38).

The passage quoted in Heb. 6 is not about a saved person losing their salvation. It is about the [b]judgment of Israel at the second coming of our Lord for entrance into the Land of Israel for millennial blessings[/b].

1) As is true of the written account as recorded in the OT, the epistle to the Hebrews does not discuss salvation, it is about entrance into the Land of Israel for millennial blessings.

2) The phrase, 'to renew them again unto [b]repentance[/b]' proves number one above. How? Because repentance throughout the OT and the Gospel and Acts period was always in order to partake in blessings of this earth or to avoid punishmenst of this earth, as spelled out in Lev. 26. In Hebrews, the blessings are those promised to those in the Land for the millennium.

3) The curse spoken of in the last phrase is the curse spelled out in the OT verses quoted above. That curse is to not be allowed entrance into the Land.

4) As long as we see salvation in the OT and in the epistle to the Hebrews where it is not the subject, only confusion will result.

Just my 2 cents worth! Thats how I see it, but I could be wrong. :)

Love,
Madeline

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[quote="Katy-Anne"]
Lol I don't usually say anything but Madeline I'm sorry, but this one is just really strange...suffice it to say I disagree LOL.

Katy-Anne
[/quote]

Hows about showing me where I am wrong. I'm about to go eat dinner but will be back to respond later.

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[quote]
28) Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.
[/quote]

I believe that Agrippa never was saved.

[quote]
Heb. 6:4-8, 'For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame. ...........But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned'.
[/quote]


Well, first of all, we know that it is not possible for someone to lose their salvation so what do you think this means?
Over and over in the OT God's people went a wandering but He never cast them off forever. Israel is a prime example of this.
God's children remain his children forever. Yes, He chastens(Heb. 12) them and punishes them but he doesn't cast them off.
I think what God is saying here is most likely these people were never saved to begin with. You cannot take one or two scriptures in the Bible and build a doctrine on it. You must take what the entire Bible teaches.
Most of the people that teach that a Christian can lose their salvation are taking scripture entirely out of context.

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[quote="Bakershalfdozen"]
The mistake people make is assuming that in the O.T., obeying the law equaled salvation, praying a praying in our dispensation equals salvation and in the Tribulation, not taking the mark will equal salvation.

It is not the act itself that equals salvation. The act is the evidence of faith.

People will not take the mark during the Tribulation because they will have heard God's message via the 144,000 Jewish witnesses and the 2 special witnesses (different debate, leave it alone :wink: ).

They will believe God and therefore not take the mark. Salvation is still by faith not by works. The works are the evidence of the faith.
[/quote]

:goodpost:

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Madeline, it was the bit about repentance not being part of salvation that I thought was really strange. In many places the Bible does teach repentance.

And to be perfectly honest, I didn't even understand the rest. :lol:

Katy-Anne

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[quote="KJB_Princess"]
Another question...when we get saved, we get the Holy Spirit dwelling inside of us, right? That's how we know we are saved, because we can feel His presence..even when we stray from the Lord, we feel that tug of the Holy Spirit trying to lead us back to Him. In the Old Testament, wouldn't it have been a little different? David asked that the holy spirit wouldn't be taken from him...

Psalm 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

Why would he be asking God this unless it were possible for God to cast him out of His presence, and take the holy spirit from him?
[/quote]


The Holy Spirit is the "trademark" for the Church. The Spirit of the Lord God came upon people in the O.T. for special occasions (think Samson, Elijah, Elisha) but did not continually indwell people in the sense that we are today.

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