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Dispensational Salvation

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Hehe Kathie...What does everybody believe about dispensational salvation?

I believe that believers were all saved the same way, by grace through faith, through all dispensations.

I believe that in all dispensations, people can/could not lose their salvation.

I'm gonna try to find the verses my preacher showed us on this topic in Bible Institute Monday night. Hopefully I wrote them in my notebook haha.

Katy-Anne

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Romans 4
(1) What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
(2) For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
(3) For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
(4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
(5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
(6) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
(7) Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
(8) Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
(9) Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
(10) How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
(11) And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
(12) And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
(13) For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
(14) For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
(15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
(16) Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
(17) (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
(18) Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
(19) And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
(20) He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
(21) And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
(22) And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
(23) Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
(24) But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
(25) Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

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I believe that salvation is through faith in all dispensations. I'm not sure that the OT saints were sealed, nor am I sure about the tribulation saints.

I'll see about finding some scripture after I finish putting in my new bathtub.
_

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[quote="Samer"]
Romans 4
(1) What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
(2) For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
(3) For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
(4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
(5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
(6) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
(7) Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
(8) Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
(9) Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
(10) How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
(11) And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
(12) And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
(13) For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
(14) For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
(15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
(16) Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
(17) (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
(18) Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
(19) And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
(20) He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
(21) And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
(22) And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
(23) Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
(24) But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
(25) Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
[/quote]

I agree with God's Word. :) Can't go wrong with that. :)

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Heresy. :)

It says not everybody is saved by grace through faith. For example, some will say you have to be perfect in the tribulation. I say...rubbish. :)

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Lol I LOVE your simple definition of "dispensational salvation" Samer.

Katy-Anne

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Dispensational Salvation is the teaching that people were saved differently in different dispensations. Basically teaching that people in the Old Testament had to have faith + works to be saved...and that it'll be similar in the Tribulation. Of course, I don't believe this way...I just haven't seen enough clear evidence to prove that it's 100% false. Romans 4 is a good start...and that's one of the reasons I don't believe dispensational salvation is clearly taught in the Bible.

Am I making any sense here? lol...I'm still studying this subject because I find it very interesting.

Another question...since this is totally related to the topic... :D

Many people use Hebrews 6:4-6 to prove that no one can lose their salvation. They say it is a hypothetical situation. However, there is nothing in the context to prove that it's hypothetical. Could there be an application here to people in a different time? Possibly to Tribulation saints? :?

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The word "if" suggests hypothetical, doesn't it?
In any case, "hypothetical" isn't my interpretation of it. I think it's actually speaking to false converts, for various reasons (I'm on the phone right now, :wink: so can't detail them all, but I'll give the clearest reason).

Hebrews 6:9
But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, [b]and things that accompany salvation[/b], though we thus speak.

Context, context, context. :mrgreen:

Hebrews 6 does not mean anybody can lose their salvation.

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4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Actually the "if" is saying that "if they shall fall away"...the "if" is not in verse 4, such as "for if it is impossible"...now that would be hypothetical.


I've read these verses over and over...and re-read the chapter over and over...and the context still proves it's not hypothetical.

If it was talking about false converts, then it basically says they can't get saved? I've heard of several false converts getting saved...so that can't be the right application, can it?

I'm not saying it clearly shows dispensational salvation either. It's one of those really deep passages in Scripture, and many people have twisted it to mean something it doesn't say.

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The mistake people make is assuming that in the O.T., obeying the law equaled salvation, praying a praying in our dispensation equals salvation and in the Tribulation, not taking the mark will equal salvation.

It is not the act itself that equals salvation. The act is the evidence of faith.

People will not take the mark during the Tribulation because they will have heard God's message via the 144,000 Jewish witnesses and the 2 special witnesses (different debate, leave it alone :wink: ).

They will believe God and therefore not take the mark. Salvation is still by faith not by works. The works are the evidence of the faith.

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Oh, right, I think I posted before I thought!

Right, so.....partial converts. :mrgreen:

I believe there are souls that God speaks to, enlightens, and convicts, that see the miracles of God (maybe are a part of church for a bit), and after all of God's drawing and longsuffering, they reject God. I think verses 4-6 speak of these types. And we have to understand it in light of verse 9, in any case. Things which accompany true salvation?

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[quote="Bakershalfdozen"]
The mistake people make is assuming that in the O.T., obeying the law equaled salvation, praying a praying in our dispensation equals salvation and in the Tribulation, not taking the mark will equal salvation.

It is not the act itself that equals salvation. The act is the evidence of faith.

People will not take the mark during the Tribulation because they will have heard God's message via the 144,000 Jewish witnesses and the 2 special witnesses (different debate, leave it alone :wink: ).

They will believe God and therefore not take the mark. Salvation is still by faith not by works. The works are the evidence of the faith.
[/quote]

I actually have to say this is the best response so far! :)

I have another question though. (don't ya love all these questions, hehe) If it was works as evidence of faith, then was it possible for someone to stop having faith in the Old Testament and not be saved? What I mean is...if a person had faith, did what they were supposed to, obeyed God...etc. etc. ...could they turn around and stop having faith in God later? If so, would they still be saved...seeing there was no promise of "Once saved, always saved" in the Old Testament.

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[quote="Samer"]
Oh, right, I think I posted before I thought!

Right, so.....partial converts. :mrgreen:

I believe there are souls that God speaks to, enlightens, and convicts, that see the miracles of God (maybe are a part of church for a bit), and after all of God's drawing and longsuffering, they reject God. I think verses 4-6 speak of these types. And we have to understand it in light of verse 9, in any case. Things which accompany true salvation?
[/quote]

Partial converts? What are those? lol

Either you're saved or you aren't saved. You can't be both. :D

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There were carnal Christians in the Old Testament Kathie, just like there are today. They were still saved though.

Katy-Anne

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[quote="KJB_Princess"]
Partial converts? What are those? lol

Either you're saved or you aren't saved. You can't be both. :D
[/quote]

Acts 26:28-29
(28) Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.
(29) And Paul said, I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am, except these bonds.

Acts 24:24-25
(24) And after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, which was a Jewess, he sent for Paul, and heard him concerning the faith in Christ.
(25) And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee.

Edit: There are a few things that happen in the heart before salvation. These people were enlightened of truth, and convicted of sin, and they rejected Christ.
Awakening,

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I believe the Hebrews verses are hypothetical. It's all about what would happen if we could lose our salvation, but we can't and so it's showing us what a blessing that is.

Katy-Anne

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I understand that, Katy-Anne...I'm not promoting dispensational salvation, just discussing it...and asking questions because there's a few things I don't fully understand. :D

It's one of those things I'm not gonna really understand till I get to heaven...

Another question...when we get saved, we get the Holy Spirit dwelling inside of us, right? That's how we know we are saved, because we can feel His presence..even when we stray from the Lord, we feel that tug of the Holy Spirit trying to lead us back to Him. In the Old Testament, wouldn't it have been a little different? David asked that the holy spirit wouldn't be taken from him...

Psalm 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

Why would he be asking God this unless it were possible for God to cast him out of His presence, and take the holy spirit from him?

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Hi KJB_Princess!

[quote="KJB_Princess"]
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Actually the "if" is saying that "if they shall fall away"...the "if" is not in verse 4, such as "for if it is impossible"...now that would be hypothetical.


I've read these verses over and over...and re-read the chapter over and over...and the context still proves it's not hypothetical.

If it was talking about false converts, then it basically says they can't get saved? I've heard of several false converts getting saved...so that can't be the right application, can it?

I'm not saying it clearly shows dispensational salvation either. It's one of those really deep passages in Scripture, and many people have twisted it to mean something it doesn't say.
[/quote]

Heb. 6:4-8, 'For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto [b]repentance[/b]; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame. ...........But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned'.

The very first and most obvious fact to note is that this passage appears in the book written to the Hebrews. Hebrews, like the Old Testament, is [b]not primarily concerned with salvation[/b], but with millennial blessings, so we will move on. The next thing we must note is the reference to repentance in verse 6. It is Not A Message Of Salvation will prove from scripture, [b]repentance was never for salvation[/b], it was for earthly blessings, and in the Acts period (during which Hebrews was written) the blessing that was promised was entrance into the Land of Israel for the millennial blessings. It is not coincidental that the writer of Hebrews says in verse 8 says, 'that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing'. What is the curse that is alluded to in this verse? Is the lose of salvation ever referred to as a curse? It is not, mostly because there is no loss of salvation. What is referred to as a curse is the loss of the [b]right of entrance into the Land[/b]. Ps. 37:22, 'For such as be blessed of Him, shall inherit the earth (Hebrew is eretz' and should be 'Land'); and they that be [b]cursed[/b] of Him shall be [b]cut off[/b]'. Verse 9 explains what it means to be 'cut off'. 'For evildoers shall be [b]cut off[/b]; but those that wait upon the Lord, [b]they shall inherit the earth[/b] (again it is 'eretz' and should be translated 'land', Land of Israel)'. And verses 28-29, '.....For the Lord loveth judgment, and forsaketh not His saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be [b]cut off[/b]. The righteous shall [b]inherit the land[/b], and dwell therein for ever'. What we learn from these passages is that to be [b]blessed is to inherit the Land during the millennium, and to be cursed is to be denied entrance into the Land for millennial blessings[/b].

How are we to understand the phrase, 'whose end it is to be burned'? For that, we must turn to Matthew 13:41-43, 'The Son of Man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity: And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be weeping and wailing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father........'. I believe a few words of clarification are called for.

1) The phrase 'furnace of fire' does not mean the traditional view of hell. It is [b]in reference to the countries outside the Land which will not enjoy the blessings that the righteous in the Land will enjoy[/b].

2) This passage in Matthew speaks of two groups. One group consists of those already in the land at His coming who will be cast out because of their unrighteousness. The other group are those who will be gathered and then judged at His coming. This judgment is described in Ezek. 20:34-40. It describes the gathering of the dispersed of Israel (verse 34), their judgment (verse 35) and the fact that some will not be allowed entrance into the Land (verse38).

The passage quoted in Heb. 6 is not about a saved person losing their salvation. It is about the [b]judgment of Israel at the second coming of our Lord for entrance into the Land of Israel for millennial blessings[/b].

1) As is true of the written account as recorded in the OT, the epistle to the Hebrews does not discuss salvation, it is about entrance into the Land of Israel for millennial blessings.

2) The phrase, 'to renew them again unto [b]repentance[/b]' proves number one above. How? Because repentance throughout the OT and the Gospel and Acts period was always in order to partake in blessings of this earth or to avoid punishmenst of this earth, as spelled out in Lev. 26. In Hebrews, the blessings are those promised to those in the Land for the millennium.

3) The curse spoken of in the last phrase is the curse spelled out in the OT verses quoted above. That curse is to not be allowed entrance into the Land.

4) As long as we see salvation in the OT and in the epistle to the Hebrews where it is not the subject, only confusion will result.

Just my 2 cents worth! Thats how I see it, but I could be wrong. :)

Love,
Madeline

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Lol I don't usually say anything but Madeline I'm sorry, but this one is just really strange...suffice it to say I disagree LOL.

Katy-Anne

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[quote="Katy-Anne"]
Lol I don't usually say anything but Madeline I'm sorry, but this one is just really strange...suffice it to say I disagree LOL.

Katy-Anne
[/quote]

Hows about showing me where I am wrong. I'm about to go eat dinner but will be back to respond later.

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[quote]
28) Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.
[/quote]

I believe that Agrippa never was saved.

[quote]
Heb. 6:4-8, 'For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame. ...........But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned'.
[/quote]


Well, first of all, we know that it is not possible for someone to lose their salvation so what do you think this means?
Over and over in the OT God's people went a wandering but He never cast them off forever. Israel is a prime example of this.
God's children remain his children forever. Yes, He chastens(Heb. 12) them and punishes them but he doesn't cast them off.
I think what God is saying here is most likely these people were never saved to begin with. You cannot take one or two scriptures in the Bible and build a doctrine on it. You must take what the entire Bible teaches.
Most of the people that teach that a Christian can lose their salvation are taking scripture entirely out of context.

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