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LindaR

Is Repentance Necessary For Salvation?

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From A.W.Tozer: The Root of Righteousness, Chapter 11: No Regeneration Without Reformation, pg. 45



To me, that means that there is NO salvation without repentance. A.W.Tozer is saying that regeneration IS salvation and repentance must precede regeneration and repentance produces fruit and a desire to serve God.


Actually, there is no repentance without salvation.

Repentance which is the fruit of salvation is of a Godly sort !

2 cor 7

11For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

This kind of repentance springs from a new heart given in newbirth. A natural person born of the flesh cannot do anything Godly, that is heresy, in fact the bible says that there is no fear of God in their eyes !

rom 3 18There is no fear of God before their eyes.

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There is no doubt the Scripture speaks of the elect. What is generally up for debate among many is just what "elect" means as it's used in Scripture!


Here is a good scriptural example !

rom 9

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

9For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.

10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Election is based soley on the sovereign perogative of God, not taking in for consideration the actions of those being elected !

Of course you are probably going to pervert and twist scripture and say God is not talking about individuals but He is, jacob and easu were individuals first and foremost. Just like adam was, abraham was..

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That verse is talking about individuals - however it is not talking about salvation. It is talking about whom the Lord chose to have the line of Christ come through.

Repentance comes before regeneration - it (ie. repentance in regards to salvation) is man's response to the Gospel invitation and the conviction/enlightenment of the Holy Spirit.

We do not believe in Calvinism here and you would be better taking it elsewhere. It is not profitable for anyone of us to endlessly debate THAT system of doctrines - I have never seen one person switch sides because of some debate.

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Here is a good scriptural example !

rom 9

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

9For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.

10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Election is based soley on the sovereign perogative of God, not taking in for consideration the actions of those being elected !

Of course you are probably going to pervert and twist scripture and say God is not talking about individuals but He is, jacob and easu were individuals first and foremost. Just like adam was, abraham was..



You are assuming that the writer in Romans is still dealing with eternal life but that isn't what he is dealing with by chapter 9. He's dealing with inheritance. What are you going to do when you get to heaven and find that both Esau and Jacob in fact died saved?

Genesis 33:4-9
4 And Esau ran to meet him, and embraced him, and fell on his neck, and kissed him: and they wept.
5 ¶ And he lifted up his eyes, and saw the women and the children; and said, Who are those with thee? And he said, The children which God hath graciously given thy servant.
6 Then the handmaidens came near, they and their children, and they bowed themselves.
7 And Leah also with her children came near, and bowed themselves: and after came Joseph near and Rachel, and they bowed themselves.
8 And he said, What meanest thou by all this drove which I met? And he said, These are to find grace in the sight of my lord.
9 And Esau said, I have enough, my brother; keep that thou hast unto thyself.

Seems Esau got right over this whole matter. But he could not get back the inheritance and birthright. The issue was despising the birthright. Read also in Hebrews 12. Reference that to Hebrews 10:29

Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

These things are dealing with people who are already saved. How could they be sanctified if they had not repented and believed on the Lord thereby receiving life eternal and also had been baptized through water for a separation from the world to a better calling? If they later reject the new covenant, they are nigh unto cursings:

Hebrews 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

They will not lose their eternal life though but better not be planning on getting a reward or inheritance on that great day.

2 Timothy 2:10-13
10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect

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Esau, a saved man? Seems beyond doubtful:

Hebrews 12:14-17 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: (15) Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; (16) Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. (17) For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

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samer says



Why do you ignore all the scripture I just showed you ?

Conviction of sin comes from a new heart given in regeneration ! Jesus pronounces them blessed who have it !

Matt 5

4Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

Again you are ignoring scripture, this mourning comes from a Sovereign act of God : zech 12

10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Now deal with scripture and not fables and tradition ! BTW This is describing salvation...


The gospel message is what convicts, and it convicts all who hear. But not all get saved:

Acts 26
26 For the king knoweth of these things, before whom also I speak freely: for I am persuaded that none of these things are hidden from him; for this thing was not done in a corner.
27 King Agrippa, believest thou the prophets? I know that thou believest.
28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.
29 And Paul said, I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am, except these bonds.

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The Gospel is by definition good news, so its primary purpose isn't conviction.
I suppose the death of Christ convicts people, as our sins have nailed him to the cross, but first we must understand our sins, which comes by the law. Conviction is the law's job.

Back to your regularly scheduled topic. :tum

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The Gospel is by definition good news, so its primary purpose isn't conviction.
I suppose the death of Christ convicts people, as our sins have nailed him to the cross, but first we must understand our sins, which comes by the law. Conviction is the law's job.

Back to your regularly scheduled topic. :tum


The gospel is good news because it describes why God saved you ! Because of the depravity of our hearts. Sometimes its even more specific as to a particular sin, like on the day of pentecost, it appeared that the sin of being guilty of the crucifixion of christ was highlighted as in acts 2

23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Even though God brought about convictiont of sin, there was still the element of good news in that they had been foregiven of their sins ! This was in direct answer to Christ mediation on their behalf when he was on the cross:

lk 23

34Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.


Your concept of good news is humanistic and not based on scripture !

The Gospel of christ is this:

# 1 Who Christ is = His Deity Triunity ?

# 2 What He has accomplished meaning His work ?

# 3 How and when did he accomplish it

# 4 For whom He accomplished it for ?

# 5 Why did He accomplish it, what reason and purpose ?

If one can answer these questions biblically , they have a basic foundation of the gospel report.

I believe the book of romans explains each of the above, in fact, the book of romans and the truthes therein are the Gospel of God !

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That verse is talking about individuals - however it is not talking about salvation. It is talking about whom the Lord chose to have the line of Christ come through.


Thats not true sir, you do lie ! #1 The theme and subject of the book of romans is salvation ! rom 1: 16

15So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

One of the basic rules of bible study is to never remove a text from its overall context , thats a sign of false teaching. Now let us establish that the whole book of romans is about the Gospel of God and his salvation !

rom 9 itself begins with a theme of salvation !

1I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

2That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

3For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:


4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

In fact , rom 9-11 is strictly about salvation of the jews !

1Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

you do err sir in wrenching romans 9 out of the context of the theme of salvation...

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Esau, a saved man? Seems beyond doubtful:

Hebrews 12:14-17 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: (15) Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; (16) Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. (17) For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.


What did he seek carefully with tears? Was it repentance unto eternal life? Or repentance to get back the birthright? No where in Hebrews is eternal life talked about or mentioned. Esau was saved but he did not give due benevolence to the things of God. He gave up the birthright and had no way to get it back after doing so. He did not get to "inherit the blessing" because it had already been given to someone else. No amount of repenting in the world could get him back what he gave up.



The Gospel is by definition good news, so its primary purpose isn't conviction.
I suppose the death of Christ convicts people, as our sins have nailed him to the cross, but first we must understand our sins, which comes by the law. Conviction is the law's job.


Romans 10:12-17
12 ¶ For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The law is written on our hearts already(Romans 2:15). It is the preaching of the gospel which spurs people to come to the Lord. Preaching the gospel is the means by which God chose for the message of salvation to be delivered:

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

What is "it"? "It" is the gospel. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation. The power is in the message. That is what convicts people. I wasn't convicted of my sins even when the law was written in my heart. But when I heard the gospel message then the conviction came.

1 Corinthians 1
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

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madelin says


Not until you admit that salvation is "the gift of God" and "not of works" are you born again and "created in Christ Jesus unto good works" (Eph. 2:8-10).


See you promote works, you are saying that one has to admit something, to get saved ! admitting is something man does, you are saying man has to do something to get saved..Works, Works and more Works...You are not of God ! You are under the curse of the law :sad

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madelin says



See you promote works, you are saying that one has to admit something, to get saved ! admitting is something man does, you are saying man has to do something to get saved..Works, Works and more Works...You are not of God ! You are under the curse of the law :sad


Pray tell, is faith a work?

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madelin says



See you promote works, you are saying that one has to admit something, to get saved ! admitting is something man does, you are saying man has to do something to get saved..Works, Works and more Works...You are not of God ! You are under the curse of the law :sad


Wow, by your definition, making the decision for Christ is works. Therefore, the only way of salvation that you have left is by irresistible grace. Those who will be saved are saved and can't do anything about it. :roll

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jjj says



:puzzled:

You might want to quote the right person. I did not say that.

However, I will pray for you that you can leave these cultish calvinistic ideas behind and come to know the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal saviour. He can give you a much better understanding of the scriptures than John Calvin or any other man on this earth. But first you need to seek him while he may be found. Repent and believe on him now without delay. Leave behind all pride and malice and turn to him and he will give you grace and mercy.

God bless!

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Hm, Beloved, maybe you better just watch your choice of words. Calling someone a liar and a false teacher because they differ with you on the interpretation of a verse is a pretty serious slander. If I missed something on the verse, then chalk it up to going by memory and not looking up the passage earlier.

However, don't throw away the immediate context because the overall context might be dealing with something else. You are the one with the differing theology here, trying to fit everything into your Calvinistic mold (which, frankly, we have no interest in - I think you truly should take it elsewhere, perhaps to a board that promotes Calvinism - promoting it here, after warnings, will get you banned - and if you are truly here for fellowship, then you don't want that - consider this a warning).

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Looks like I was too slow... My last response was made before reading the last few posts. Well, beloved, enjoy your sojourn elsewhere...

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