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mike08

A little confused

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I recently was talking to a catholic about James. He said James meant exactly what he said and then wrote down a list as fallows:

(Matthew 25:31-46)

(Matthew 7:21)

(John 5:28-29)

(Romans 2:6)

(2 Corinthians 5:10)

(1Peter 1:17)

(Revelation 20:12)

(Revelation 22:12)

After looking at these verses I am quite confused. They would all seem to imply that we are judged on what we do and not just our faith. Could some one please explain these to me? I

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May i ask you this. If we could do works to merit salvation then why did Jesus die?

Works come after salvation and they are evidence that we have been saved.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


As far as James, that book is written to believers. Even the people in the old testement we saved by faith alone. Check out Hebrews.

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I recently was talking to a catholic about James. He said James meant exactly what he said and then wrote down a list as fallows:

(Matthew 25:31-46)

(Matthew 7:21)

(John 5:28-29)

(Romans 2:6)

(2 Corinthians 5:10)

(1Peter 1:17)

(Revelation 20:12)

(Revelation 22:12)

After looking at these verses I am quite confused. They would all seem to imply that we are judged on what we do and not just our faith. Could some one please explain these to me? I

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mike08,

I know exactly what you are saying and I have never been satisfied with the traditional responses as given above.

I don't wish to confuse you but just look at who the epistle of James is addressed to: "THE TWELVE TRIBES WHICH ARE SCATTERED ABROAD".

Now I know that I will be accused by some of being a heretic but I would suggest that this epistle is written to the Tribulation Jews. Please note, however, that I am not saying this epistle has no spiritual application to the Church Age believer, but it is primarily a DOCTRINAL book for the Tribulation. Saints in the Tribulation will be saved by FAITH plus WORKS ie keeping the commandments and not taking the mark of the beast or worshipping the image. One of the commandments being LOVING THE BRETHREN (see 1 John and Revelation).

I go by this 'rule of thumb':

Any verse in any book in the Bible that does not CONTRADICT what is found in the Pauline epistles is SOUND DOCTRINE!

Paul says to give attention to the WORDS of Jesus Christ when he was on earth (1 Tim 6:3).

Anything Jesus said in Mt, Mk, Lk or John that doesn't contradict Rom, Gal, Eph, Col etc is CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE for the BODY OF CHRIST.

Those teaching's that do 'contradict' including John's, James epistles are NOT primarily from a doctrinal point of view written to the Church Age believer.

I hope this is of help to you but be prepared to be accused of heresy if you interpret Scripture this way.

Doc H (Trying to Study and Rightly Divide the Word of Truth)

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There is only one plan of salvation from Genesis 3 through to Revelation 22. There is not a faith alone Gospel, then a faith plus works gospel in another dispensation. Only one. OT saints were saved by faith alone - as Paul clearly teaches and uses as examples for his teaching on the subject. The Tribulation and the Millenium do not teach a different plan of salvation - that is wrongly dividing the Word of truth.

James' teaching does not contradict Paul's - but looks at the opposite side of the same coin - ie. a faith that produces works (taken from Abraham Offered Isaac - Genesis 22):


In Genesis 15:6, we had the declaration that Abraham "believed in the Lord; and he (the Lord) counted it to him for righteousness." Abraham was justified before God by believing His promises, especially about the coming Messiah and Redeemer who would one day die for his sins (see also Genesis 3:15). Now here we have the passage that explains what many would try to state is a contradiction in the Word of God and which religious groups have always sought to twist:

James 2:20-23 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Rightly divided, this passage is teaching that Abraham was justified before men by acting upon his faith. You see, man cannot see what is in the heart of another man - only the Lord can. We see the proof, the evidence, the fruit of someone's salvation, by how they live - we see the evidence of their faith by how they live it out on a day to day basis, on the works that they do because of their faith. That is the evidence that their salvation was real in the first place. This is what Jesus meant when He said, "Ye shall know them by their fruits." What is on the inside, what is in the heart, will come out eventually. What is the evidence showing in your life? If you have trusted the Lord Jesus Christ alone for salvation, believing that He paid the complete penalty for your sins, when He died in your place, there will be evidence to the world around you. Can they see your faith?


The Bible teaches that the lost are damned because of their rejection of Christ and that they will be judged for their sins and evil works. The Bible also teaches Christians who are saved by faith alone (apart from works), will also have to give account and be rewarded based on their works of service or lack thereof (at the judgment seat of Christ).

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Supposedly we are saved by doing "works of faith" rather than "works of Moses' law," so we are really saved by keeping the law--just a different law; instead of salvation by offering sacrifices, and by other Old Testament ceremonial procedures, we are now supposedly saved by following New Testament morals and ceremonial procedures such as baptism and other works.


Read Galatians 3

If our salvation is contingent in any way by our works Christ died in vain. Jesus Christ became our Savior because we were unable to save ourselves. We were wretches, filthy rags altogether unclean.
It would take a spotless lamb without blemish. Jesus was the only one that was born without the adamic nature. He was sinless.

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I recently was talking to a catholic about James. He said James meant exactly what he said and then wrote down a list as fallows:

(Matthew 25:31-46)

(Matthew 7:21)

(John 5:28-29)

(Romans 2:6)

(2 Corinthians 5:10)

(1Peter 1:17)

(Revelation 20:12)

(Revelation 22:12)

After looking at these verses I am quite confused. They would all seem to imply that we are judged on what we do and not just our faith. Could some one please explain these to me? I

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jerry,

Salvation the same from Gen 3 to Rev 22.

Yes that is surely the HISTORIC and TRADITIONAL view.

The Roman Catholic church also holds to the 'HISTORIC' and 'TRADITIONAL' view of 2,000 years :zzzz

But what doth the Scriptures say?

Can you please show me which of the OT saints was born again and indwelled and sealed with the Holy Spirit just like YOU and I are TODAY.

Salvation EXACTLY the SAME? Really?

Why was there NO blood or other sacrifice for murder, adultery, homosexuality, bestiality, blasphemy etc under the law?

If you balspheme TODAY do you LOSE your salvation?

If you look at a woman with lust TODAY do you lose your salvation?

If you hate your brother (and boy there are many Christians who hate their brother) TODAY do you lose your salvation?

The OT Jew certainly did. Where do you think the fellow who picked up the sticks on the Sabbath Day went? Hell or Heaven. Hang on salvation is EXACTLY the same so he must of gone to Heaven or Hell right. So what about that place called PARADISE?

Yes salvation has ALWAYS been by GRACE and FAITH but not exclusively throughout the dispensations.

Doc H

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jerry,

Salvation the same from Gen 3 to Rev 22.

Yes that is surely the HISTORIC and TRADITIONAL view.

But what doth the Scriptures say?

Can you please show me which of the OT saints was born again and indwelled and sealed with the Holy Spirit just like YOU and I are TODAY.


If you don't mind Jerry...

Every OT saint was indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Let me give you plenty of verses:

In David:

Psalms 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.

In Daniel:

Daniel 4:9 O Belteshazzar, master of the magicians, because I know that the spirit of the holy gods is in thee, and no secret troubleth thee, tell me the visions of my dream that I have seen, and the interpretation thereof.

In Moses:

Isaiah 63:11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?

In Joseph:

Genesis 41:38 And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit of God is?

In Bezaleel:

Exodus 31
1 ¶ And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2 See, I have called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah:
3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,
4 To devise cunning works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass,
5 And in cutting of stones, to set them, and in carving of timber, to work in all manner of workmanship.

Plenty more examples I'm sure. In fact, Jesus Christ said:

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.



Salvation EXACTLY the SAME? Really?

Why was there NO blood or other sacrifice for murder, adultery, homosexuality, bestiality, blasphemy etc under the law?


So now David isn't saved because he committed murder and adultery...


If you balspheme TODAY do you LOSE your salvation?

If you look at a woman with lust TODAY do you lose your salvation?

If you hate your brother (and boy there are many Christians who hate their brother) TODAY do you lose your salvation?

The OT Jew certainly did. Where do you think the fellow who picked up the sticks on the Sabbath Day went? Hell or Heaven. Hang on salvation is EXACTLY the same so he must of gone to Heaven or Hell right. So what about that place called PARADISE?

Yes salvation has ALWAYS been by GRACE and FAITH but not exclusively throughout the dispensations.

Doc H


Prove that any of these things you just spoke would result in someone losing their eternal life in the Old Testament. I need verses.

God bless!

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No David did not lose his salvation neither did God take the Holy Spirit away from him.

However, David was under the Mosaic covenant/under Law, so for committing premeditated murder and adultery, according to the Law of Moses he should have been put to death but he wasn't, I wonder why?

Perhaps the 'sure mercies of God'?

You wan't scripture for loss of salvation for OT saints then read the book of Leviticus.

In order to be saved the Jew had to have faith plus works (under the Mosaic Law).

If not then please explain why their was no blood sacrifice for murder, homosexuality etc.

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Doc H, you are teaching a DIFFERENT Gospel (granted, in other dispensations - but that is not what the Bible teaches). God doesn't take that too lightly.

Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Don't confuse the fact that these are different dispensations - ie. different house rules - with the idea of different plans of salvation, different Gospels. Only one way of salvation - different plans for the believers' lives though.

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Justification comes through faith. Not through keeping a set of laws. Old Testament and New.

Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

So here is the next question. How in the world did Ninevah or Naaman ever get eternal life? They never kept the Jewish laws! They never got circumcised or joined Judaism! Yet Jesus Christ said:

Luke 11:32 The men of Nineve shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

18 In this thing the LORD pardon thy servant, that when my master goeth into the house of Rimmon to worship there, and he leaneth on my hand, and I bow myself in the house of Rimmon: when I bow down myself in the house of Rimmon, the LORD pardon thy servant in this thing.
19 And he said unto him, Go in peace. So he departed from him a little way.

Here is what you are confusing Doc H. In the Old Testament we see God's covenant relationship with a nation. This covenant relationship no where spoke of eternal life. Eternal life was found in repenting and trusting God that he would provide a way. So eternal ife was therefore available to both the Jew and the Gentile at that time. The Jews, as a nation, were given certain earthly promises and earthly curses based on whether they served the Lord or served idolatry. As a nation he gave them Godly laws for how to run and how to deal with criminals. And God physically blessed them for running His nation in His way. But never did those laws provide someone with eternal life. Galatians 3:11 clearly says that.

God bless!

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OT saints were saved by grace through faith...

I've also heard that OT saints were looking forward...to the Cross.
Are there any verses on this?

The Bible says...
Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

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