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James 1:6-7
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

If you did not trust God, which is your choice to trust or not, then you get nothing like verse 7 says. We have all been given the ability to trust or not to trust. That's what faith is, it's believing or not believing. To make it into some magical force that God gives to whom he will and refuses to whom he will would be to accuse God of expecting something of man which man cannot do. It would also be accusing God of forcing things on man against man's will. The God of the Bible does neither of those. Fallen man is expected to repent and believe. The gospel is what makes clear to us what we are and who he is. Then we have a choice.

Let me remind you that it took 100% man and 100% God to buy our redemption. Jesus Christ was 100% God as well as 100% man. He is the one who called himself "Son of man" several times in the scriptures. He wore that name as a badge of honor:

Matthew 8:20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.
Matthew 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
Matthew 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
Matthew 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
Matthew 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale

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Concerning the verses you cited on personal "faith." It is God gave them the faith that made them whole whether physically or spiritually. Jesus, being God, could see that faith had been given them and it was to that faith that Jesus responded. Otherwise faith becomes something that we generate and then the initiating work is not of God but of man and such would rob God of glory. God has to move first is a primary function of Biblical theology (except for the Arminian or Pelagian interpretations). Hope this helps!

Love
Madeline


Suppose a child hanging from a tree limb trusted that his father would catch him and let go; would you say that child worked to get down from that tree? Absolutely not. That's a rediculous definition of work and of faith. Faith requires no energy. (The word for "work" is "ergon" which is where we get our word "energy" from.) Faith is just simply trusting him. That is something we can do which is not works. It is something that only we can do. God can't trust for us. If you are waiting around for God to give you faith to get saved, you'll wait yourself right into the flames of hell. You are responsible for believing. Armenians, pelagians, and calvinists are all grossly wrong and do it under the name of theology.

God bless!

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Also, let's examine Eph. 2:8,9 one more time:

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

How many gifts does this verse describe? Can "the" describe plurality? If I said, "The dog" would that mean I'm talking about 3 dogs?

There is only one gift spoken of in this verse. If you break down the sentence structure you will see that one gift is salvation. Not faith. Not grace. Salvation is the gift. Salvation is the ONLY gift spoken of in this verse.

God bless!


Where did the grace come from?

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God gave every man the ability to believe - to respond to the Gospel - that is what the measure of faith is referring to.

However, if God had to "give" faith to someone in order for them to be healed, etc. then there is no way He would rebuke people for not having enough faith or having little faith, etc. The Lord gave me the ability to believe, my amount of faith depends upon me and my trusting in His Word - not on some sovereign gift or dispensation.

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Grace comes from God - however, we need to receive it. That involves faith on our part and also humbling ourselves. It is not given arbitrarily.

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God gave every man the ability to believe - to respond to the Gospel - that is what the measure of faith is referring to.

However, if God had to "give" faith to someone in order for them to be healed, etc. then there is no way He would rebuke people for not having enough faith or having little faith, etc. The Lord gave me the ability to believe, my amount of faith depends upon me and my trusting in His Word - not on some sovereign gift or dispensation.


You said it right there, brother Jerry,
He gave me the ability to believe. But before I could believe, I was drawn by the Holy Ghost and the preaching of the Word.
There were people who heard Jesus preach and saw the miracles, who still did not believe.
And I think it all boils down to "free will". Does that make me a "free will baptist"? :puzzled: :lol::peek:
We believe and accept what we want to. God anin't going to MAKE us trust in Him.

Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
That's where mine came from.

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Through the work of the Holy Spirit, the Lord gives all the ability to believe (posting for clarification), but many reject that due to their free will.

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Through the work of the Holy Spirit, the Lord gives all the ability to believe (posting for clarification), but many reject that due to their free will.


That's right.
Faith is not some quality or merit of our own...
It is truly a gift of God.
How you use that faith, is your choice.
You can choose the world or choose Jesus.

And back to Ephesians 2:8-9,
It's saying that we have NOTHING to brag about and absolutely no merit of our own.
The grace did not come from me, the faith was not produced by me.
It is all God's doing. You have no qualities and nothing you do can merit salvation.
We simply exercise our will.
"whosoever will..." the Bible says.

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Suppose a child hanging from a tree limb trusted that his father would catch him and let go; would you say that child worked to get down from that tree? Absolutely not. That's a rediculous definition of work and of faith. Faith requires no energy. (The word for "work" is "ergon" which is where we get our word "energy" from.) Faith is just simply trusting him. That is something we can do which is not works. It is something that only we can do. God can't trust for us. If you are waiting around for God to give you faith to get saved, you'll wait yourself right into the flames of hell. You are responsible for believing. Armenians, pelagians, and calvinists are all grossly wrong and do it under the name of theology.

God bless!


Whoops..I forgot all about this!

Paul refutes you. Your analogy doesn't work since it wasn't the father who gave his son the ability to trust in him.

Ephesians 2:8,9 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The "it is" is reflexive of both "grace" and "faith". The Greek text is extremely clear. Men are unregenerate. God changes them and gives them a "heart of flesh". BECAUSE they have this new heart, they are then ABLE to believe. Without that new heart, they CANNOT believe. Thus, faith, through grace, is a gift that is exercised by those whom God chooses to bestow it. This is "salvation 101". Anything MORE than this, is a work YOU DO. Your analogy is faulty because it misses the primary means by which men are Converted.

Love,
Madeline

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Whoops..I forgot all about this!

Paul refutes you. Your analogy doesn't work since it wasn't the father who gave his son the ability to trust in him.

Ephesians 2:8,9 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The "it is" is reflexive of both "grace" and "faith". The Greek text is extremely clear. Men are unregenerate. God changes them and gives them a "heart of flesh". BECAUSE they have this new heart, they are then ABLE to believe. Without that new heart, they CANNOT believe. Thus, faith, through grace, is a gift that is exercised by those whom God chooses to bestow it. This is "salvation 101". Anything MORE than this, is a work YOU DO. Your analogy is faulty because it misses the primary means by which men are Converted.

Love,
Madeline


Actually looking at the greek will show us this:

Ephesians 2:8,9 -
For by grace are ye(prepositional phrase)

saved(subject)

through faith(prepositional phrase);

Te gar chariti este(prepositional phrase)

sesosmenoi(subject)

dia pisteos(prepositional phrase);

The subject of the sentence can only be the gift. Not the prepositional phrases. "It" can only refer back to the subject and not the prepositional phrases, according to the grammar.

If I said:

The dog(subject)
went through the hoop(prepositional phrase);
It then landed on the ground.

You wouldn't think that "it" was the hoop. "It" can be nothing other than the subject(ie. the dog).

There is only one gift spoken of in this verse: salvation.

Also, faith is not a work, it is required of man and Paul makes the distinct contrast between the works of the law and faith. Trust is something we procure. Not God. He can help increase our trust but he does not make us trust.

Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

We have to agree with God about our sins. He isn't going to make us do that. He entices us to do so. He wouldn't entice us to do so if we had no choice whether or not to agree with him or not.

God bless!

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Where did the grace come from?



Grace is unmerited favor and of course that comes from God. In fact, the greek word "charis"(grace) forms the word "charisma"(gift) which is used many instances for the word "gift". That would indicate that the word "gift" is an act of grace.

But this verse is not specifying that grace is "the gift of God". This verse in Ephesians 2:8 is saying salvation is "the gift of God". That is the subject in the verse.

God bless!

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Actually looking at the greek will show us this:

Ephesians 2:8,9 -
For by grace are ye(prepositional phrase)

saved(subject)

through faith(prepositional phrase);

Te gar chariti este(prepositional phrase)

sesosmenoi(subject)

dia pisteos(prepositional phrase);

The subject of the sentence can only be the gift. Not the prepositional phrases. "It" can only refer back to the subject and not the prepositional phrases, according to the grammar.

If I said:

The dog(subject)
went through the hoop(prepositional phrase);
It then landed on the ground.

You wouldn't think that "it" was the hoop. "It" can be nothing other than the subject(ie. the dog).

There is only one gift spoken of in this verse: salvation.

Also, faith is not a work, it is required of man and Paul makes the distinct contrast between the works of the law and faith. Trust is something we procure. Not God. He can help increase our trust but he does not make us trust.

Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

We have to agree with God about our sins. He isn't going to make us do that. He entices us to do so. He wouldn't entice us to do so if we had no choice whether or not to agree with him or not.

God bless!


Nice try - but bad exegesis on the Greek. Both grace and faith are objects of "gift." Actually, to even be a bit more precise, the entire 1st chapter of Ephesians is in view, which revolves around election. Word studies will not cut it. You have to know the language. Let's be more precise, ok JJJ? The reason you have a deviant view of salvation, is because you probably don't understand yourself as a sinner, and its extent. Man in his corrupt nature cannot comprehend the good (Acts 16:14; Eph. 4:18; 2 Cor. 3:12-18; John 1:11; 8:43; Matt. 13:14; 1 Cor. 1:18,21; 2:14). Man in his fallen nature has no desire to do good (Matt. 7:18; John 3:3; 8:43; 15:5; 6;64,65; Ezek. 11:19; Eph. 2:1,5). And thus, we are back to grace, through faith, which are (is) the gift of God. It is impossible to deny this unless you simply butcher the Greek. This is a little off-topic so if you want to, you can respond here: http://www.onlinebaptist.com/messageboards/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17099&p=256151#p256151

Love,
Madeline

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God gave everyone a free will to choose to accept or reject Jesus Christ. We are not all puppets.
Yes, He knows in His foreknowledge who will accept Him or reject Him but scripture teaches us that He is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

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Nice try - but bad exegesis on the Greek. Both grace and faith are objects of "gift." Actually, to even be a bit more precise, the entire 1st chapter of Ephesians is in view, which revolves around election. Word studies will not cut it. You have to know the language. Let's be more precise, ok JJJ? The reason you have a deviant view of salvation, is because you probably don't understand yourself as a sinner, and its extent. Man in his corrupt nature cannot comprehend the good (Acts 16:14; Eph. 4:18; 2 Cor. 3:12-18; John 1:11; 8:43; Matt. 13:14; 1 Cor. 1:18,21; 2:14). Man in his fallen nature has no desire to do good (Matt. 7:18; John 3:3; 8:43; 15:5; 6;64,65; Ezek. 11:19; Eph. 2:1,5). And thus, we are back to grace, through faith, which are (is) the gift of God. It is impossible to deny this unless you simply butcher the Greek. This is a little off-topic so if you want to, you can respond here: http://www.onlinebaptist.com/messageboards/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17099&p=256151#p256151

Love,
Madeline



Madeline,

There is no exegesis involved. It is simple first year greek grammar.
"dia pisteos" CANNOT be the subject. This is a prepositional phrase. "Theou to doron;" CANNOT be referring to a prepositional phrase. Also, "touto" (that;"kai touto ouk ex humon") is in the neuter and can ONLY be referring back to another neuter(not a feminine) which the only neuter word is "sesosmenoi"(saved). "Chariti"(grace) and "pisteos"(faith) are both feminine.

Either way you dice it, salvation is "the gift of God".

So either God just didn't "understand" calvinism, or he didn't "understand" grammar.

Truth is he knows grammar. He just didn't invent calvinism. John Calvin did.

God bless!

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JJJ,

I,for one, never said we had no choice. To believe that we have no choice is a false doctrine called "irresisible grace".

I still say that we have nothing at all to brag about and this is what Ephesians 2:8-9 is saying. I didn't muster up enough faith to be saved. I had NOTHING.

Let me try to explain something to you.
I had been lost for a long long time. I had heard preaching MANY times but I had no faith to believe or maybe, I didn't WANT to believe? The Bible says that the heart is deceitful above all things. But I had no faith. I was an agnostic.....I was that fool that said in his heart..."there is no God". I believed in evolution. I mean...I was a hard case. I COULD NOT have believed on my own.

At any rate, that morning when I got saved, the preacher didn't get up there and tell any jokes.....It took a preacher, filled with the Holy Ghost, to draw me to Jesus. As the preacher preached the Word of God with compassion and love, something happened. It was no longer a preacher preaching.....It was God speaking to my heart. I realized that I was a lost, hopeless, helpless sinner. I realized for the first time that Jesus was real and that He was speaking to me personally. It took the power of God to get me to believe. I was in the presence of the King of Glory!! I junked all my pride! I called out loud to Jesus.....I mean....He was right there in the room.
It was all God's doing.
It tool the POWER of the Holy Ghost, using a spirit filled man, preaching the Word to birth me into the family of God. God did it ALL my friend. The OnLy thing I did was say yes. I put my trust in Jesus.

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I put my trust in Jesus.


Exactly. He brings the message to us, the Holy Ghost convicts us of our sins, we agree with him(faith), and his grace saves us. That is faith. Trusting is faith. It is not some magical unknown thing. It is not something that requires any effort. It's just us saying he's right. Faith in itself does absolutely nothing. It is God's response to that faith that saves us. His promises hold true that if we only repent and believe, he will save us regardless of who we are. He gives the message. We agree with it(faith) or don't agree with it. And if we repent(agree with God against our sins and turn to him) he will save us.

God bless!

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Madeline,

There is no exegesis involved. It is simple first year greek grammar.
"dia pisteos" CANNOT be the subject. This is a prepositional phrase. "Theou to doron;" CANNOT be referring to a prepositional phrase. Also, "touto" (that;"kai touto ouk ex humon") is in the neuter and can ONLY be referring back to another neuter(not a feminine) which the only neuter word is "sesosmenoi"(saved). "Chariti"(grace) and "pisteos"(faith) are both feminine.

Either way you dice it, salvation is "the gift of God".

So either God just didn't "understand" calvinism, or he didn't "understand" grammar.

Truth is he knows grammar. He just didn't invent calvinism. John Calvin did.

God bless!


I was taught Greek by a teacher, we must have had different grammar teachers. God knows both the grammar and that salvation is a gift, which would include both faith and grace. Genesis 6:5 "And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." This moral corruption begins at conception. Psalm 51:5, "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." 1) Fallen man cannot do or work any good. (Matt. 7:17,18; 1 Cor. 12:3; John 15:4-5; Rom. 8:7,8). 2) Fallen man cannot comprehend or apprehend the good (Acts 16:14; Eph. 4:18; 2 Cor. 3:12-18; John 1:11; 8:43; Matt. 13:14; 1 Cor. 1:18, 21; 2:14). 3) Man cannot have any desire towards the good (Matt. 7:18; John 3:3; 8:43; 15:5; 6:64, 65; Ezek. 11:19; Eph. 2:1,5). And thus, we are back to grace, through faith, which are (is) the gift of God. It is impossible to deny this unless you simply butcher the Greek as you have already and ignore all these passages. Hope this helps!

Love,
Madeline

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I was taught Greek by a teacher,


Then, certainly you must know what gender is. And certainly you must know what a prepositional phrase is. Certainly you must know that a pronoun must match it's antecedent in case, gender and number.

Taking some verses and misconstruing them to say that God is responsible for the choice he has given us to make, does not give a simple gospel message whereby an unbeliever can understand their condition and come to God for reconciliation through the blood of Jesus Christ.

John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

The Holy Ghost reproves the WORLD of sin. Not just a few elect. We each have the choice whether we agree with God or not about our sins and about his Son. God's foreknowledge does not choose for us. It is our choice which shaped his foreknowledge.

God bless!

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Then, certainly you must know what gender is. And certainly you must know what a prepositional phrase is. Certainly you must know that a pronoun must match it's antecedent in case, gender and number.

Taking some verses and misconstruing them to say that God is responsible for the choice he has given us to make, does not give a simple gospel message whereby an unbeliever can understand their condition and come to God for reconciliation through the blood of Jesus Christ.

John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

The Holy Ghost reproves the WORLD of sin. Not just a few elect. We each have the choice whether we agree with God or not about our sins and about his Son. God's foreknowledge does not choose for us. It is our choice which shaped his foreknowledge.

God bless!


I am aware of those terms JJJ, please don't insult my intelligence. Please take note. In verses 8, 9 "ho gar cavritiv ejste sesw/smevnoi dia; pivstew", "for by grace you have been saved through faith." The connective gar has the force of providing support for the writer's stress on the surpassing richness of God's grace to believers in v 7. He has been right to focus on the display of such grace as central to God's purpose, for, as he had said earlier, it is by grace that believers have been saved. The repetition of the great truth with which he had already interrupted the flow of thought in v 5b serves as a lead into a statement about the nature of salvation in terms of the relationship between grace and works. It is a repetition which has two variations from v 5b. The first is that this time a definite article accompanies the noun "grace," helping to underline that this is the same grace of which the writer has been speaking in v 7. The second is the addition of dia; pivstew", "by faith." The more frequently used phrase in the undisputed Paulines is "ejk pivstew", but that the two phrases were synonymous for Paul is indicated by their interchangeability in Gal 2:16; Rom 3:25, 26; 3:30. Ephesians prefers dia; pivstew" (cf. 3:12,17). As in Rom 3:22

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Faith is a human activity but a specific kind of activity, a response which allows salvation to become operative, which receives what has already been accomplished by God in Christ.


God doesn't save a person UNTIL they repent and believe. There is no way around it. You don't have God save you and then you repent and believe. You repent and believe and then God saves you.

Jesus never performed one miracle until they believed. They believed, and then he performed the miracle.

Matthew 8:13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

In several cases he performed miracles for people who were not a part of Israel. One woman he even called a dog yet she persisted and he gave her what she desired and said, "O woman, great is thy faith".

Many of those miracles showed a picture of salvation. Everytime it was their belief that came first.

Let's look at something out of Romans 10

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be (5)saved.
14 How then shall they (4)call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they (3)believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they (2)hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be (1)sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Let's put this in order:

1)preacher sent
2)unbeliever hears the gospel
3)unbeliever believes
4)believer calls on his name
5)believer saved

According to the scriptures, we believe, and then he saves. Not the other way around.


Faith is a human activity


Amen to that!

By the way, faith does not make us of any merit. It simply allows God to do what he desires to do for everyone.

God bless!

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James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

I was pondering something this morning. Suppose faith is a gift from God. How did the devils get it? Did God give them their faith? Yet faith did not reconcile the devils because there has been no sacrifice given for them.

There are two kinds of faith I see in the scriptures.

1)There is believing which resulted from seeing:
John 20:29a Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed:

2)and then there is believing that results from not seeing:
John 20:29b blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

So which one is a gift of God? Also, did he give that gift to the devils knowing it would not result in anything?

It is not faith which does anything by itself. It is the God behind that faith which does something.

God bless!

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James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

I was pondering something this morning. Suppose faith is a gift from God. How did the devils get it? Did God give them their faith? Yet faith did not reconcile the devils because there has been no sacrifice given for them.

There are two kinds of faith I see in the scriptures.

1)There is believing which resulted from seeing:
John 20:29a Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed:

2)and then there is believing that results from not seeing:
John 20:29b blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

So which one is a gift of God? Also, did he give that gift to the devils knowing it would not result in anything?

It is not faith which does anything by itself. It is the God behind that faith which does something.

God bless!


:puzzled: :-S Of course the devils believe, where do you get the idea that demons have "faith"? There is a belief that saves and a belief that doesn't! That verse doesn't say that the devils have "faith," it say that the devils "believe," for the obvious reasons...they were once angels. I believe that the name of this website is Online Baptist, why? Because that's what it reads at the top of the page, and I see it with my very own eyes - not because I have faith. Faith saves, demons don't have faith, think! I will get to your other reply later when I have the time. Have we forgotten the definition of faith? Hebrews 11:1 states "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Do the demons have this? if not, then how can they have faith?

Love,
Madeline

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:puzzled: :-S Of course the devils believe, where do you get the idea that demons have "faith"? There is a belief that saves and a belief that doesn't! That verse doesn't say that the devils have "faith," it say that the devils "believe," for the obvious reasons...they were once angels. I believe that the name of this website is Online Baptist, why? Because that's what it reads at the top of the page, and I see it with my very own eyes - not because I have faith. Faith saves, demons don't have faith, think! I will get to your other reply later when I have the time.



I thought you said you knew greek? This is the same greek word used in Eph. 2:8.

Same faith. Same belief.

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I thought you said you knew greek? This is the same greek word used in Eph. 2:8.

Same faith. Same belief.


I understand Greek, but you don't seem to understand CONTEXT. Example, the word "ALL" (pas) in the Greek can refer to all in the literal sense or collectively - context determines the meaning. I'll get to your other reply when I have the time. So again, do demons have "faith"?

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