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God gave every man the ability to believe - to respond to the Gospel - that is what the measure of faith is referring to.

However, if God had to "give" faith to someone in order for them to be healed, etc. then there is no way He would rebuke people for not having enough faith or having little faith, etc. The Lord gave me the ability to believe, my amount of faith depends upon me and my trusting in His Word - not on some sovereign gift or dispensation.


You said it right there, brother Jerry,
He gave me the ability to believe. But before I could believe, I was drawn by the Holy Ghost and the preaching of the Word.
There were people who heard Jesus preach and saw the miracles, who still did not believe.
And I think it all boils down to "free will". Does that make me a "free will baptist"? :puzzled: :lol::peek:
We believe and accept what we want to. God anin't going to MAKE us trust in Him.

Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
That's where mine came from.
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Through the work of the Holy Spirit, the Lord gives all the ability to believe (posting for clarification), but many reject that due to their free will.

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Through the work of the Holy Spirit, the Lord gives all the ability to believe (posting for clarification), but many reject that due to their free will.


That's right.
Faith is not some quality or merit of our own...
It is truly a gift of God.
How you use that faith, is your choice.
You can choose the world or choose Jesus.

And back to Ephesians 2:8-9,
It's saying that we have NOTHING to brag about and absolutely no merit of our own.
The grace did not come from me, the faith was not produced by me.
It is all God's doing. You have no qualities and nothing you do can merit salvation.
We simply exercise our will.
"whosoever will..." the Bible says.
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Suppose a child hanging from a tree limb trusted that his father would catch him and let go; would you say that child worked to get down from that tree? Absolutely not. That's a rediculous definition of work and of faith. Faith requires no energy. (The word for "work" is "ergon" which is where we get our word "energy" from.) Faith is just simply trusting him. That is something we can do which is not works. It is something that only we can do. God can't trust for us. If you are waiting around for God to give you faith to get saved, you'll wait yourself right into the flames of hell. You are responsible for believing. Armenians, pelagians, and calvinists are all grossly wrong and do it under the name of theology.

God bless!


Whoops..I forgot all about this!

Paul refutes you. Your analogy doesn't work since it wasn't the father who gave his son the ability to trust in him.

Ephesians 2:8,9 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The "it is" is reflexive of both "grace" and "faith". The Greek text is extremely clear. Men are unregenerate. God changes them and gives them a "heart of flesh". BECAUSE they have this new heart, they are then ABLE to believe. Without that new heart, they CANNOT believe. Thus, faith, through grace, is a gift that is exercised by those whom God chooses to bestow it. This is "salvation 101". Anything MORE than this, is a work YOU DO. Your analogy is faulty because it misses the primary means by which men are Converted.

Love,
Madeline
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Whoops..I forgot all about this!

Paul refutes you. Your analogy doesn't work since it wasn't the father who gave his son the ability to trust in him.

Ephesians 2:8,9 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The "it is" is reflexive of both "grace" and "faith". The Greek text is extremely clear. Men are unregenerate. God changes them and gives them a "heart of flesh". BECAUSE they have this new heart, they are then ABLE to believe. Without that new heart, they CANNOT believe. Thus, faith, through grace, is a gift that is exercised by those whom God chooses to bestow it. This is "salvation 101". Anything MORE than this, is a work YOU DO. Your analogy is faulty because it misses the primary means by which men are Converted.

Love,
Madeline


Actually looking at the greek will show us this:

Ephesians 2:8,9 -
For by grace are ye(prepositional phrase)

saved(subject)

through faith(prepositional phrase);

Te gar chariti este(prepositional phrase)

sesosmenoi(subject)

dia pisteos(prepositional phrase);

The subject of the sentence can only be the gift. Not the prepositional phrases. "It" can only refer back to the subject and not the prepositional phrases, according to the grammar.

If I said:

The dog(subject)
went through the hoop(prepositional phrase);
It then landed on the ground.

You wouldn't think that "it" was the hoop. "It" can be nothing other than the subject(ie. the dog).

There is only one gift spoken of in this verse: salvation.

Also, faith is not a work, it is required of man and Paul makes the distinct contrast between the works of the law and faith. Trust is something we procure. Not God. He can help increase our trust but he does not make us trust.

Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

We have to agree with God about our sins. He isn't going to make us do that. He entices us to do so. He wouldn't entice us to do so if we had no choice whether or not to agree with him or not.

God bless!
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Where did the grace come from?



Grace is unmerited favor and of course that comes from God. In fact, the greek word "charis"(grace) forms the word "charisma"(gift) which is used many instances for the word "gift". That would indicate that the word "gift" is an act of grace.

But this verse is not specifying that grace is "the gift of God". This verse in Ephesians 2:8 is saying salvation is "the gift of God". That is the subject in the verse.

God bless!
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Actually looking at the greek will show us this:

Ephesians 2:8,9 -
For by grace are ye(prepositional phrase)

saved(subject)

through faith(prepositional phrase);

Te gar chariti este(prepositional phrase)

sesosmenoi(subject)

dia pisteos(prepositional phrase);

The subject of the sentence can only be the gift. Not the prepositional phrases. "It" can only refer back to the subject and not the prepositional phrases, according to the grammar.

If I said:

The dog(subject)
went through the hoop(prepositional phrase);
It then landed on the ground.

You wouldn't think that "it" was the hoop. "It" can be nothing other than the subject(ie. the dog).

There is only one gift spoken of in this verse: salvation.

Also, faith is not a work, it is required of man and Paul makes the distinct contrast between the works of the law and faith. Trust is something we procure. Not God. He can help increase our trust but he does not make us trust.

Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

We have to agree with God about our sins. He isn't going to make us do that. He entices us to do so. He wouldn't entice us to do so if we had no choice whether or not to agree with him or not.

God bless!


Nice try - but bad exegesis on the Greek. Both grace and faith are objects of "gift." Actually, to even be a bit more precise, the entire 1st chapter of Ephesians is in view, which revolves around election. Word studies will not cut it. You have to know the language. Let's be more precise, ok JJJ? The reason you have a deviant view of salvation, is because you probably don't understand yourself as a sinner, and its extent. Man in his corrupt nature cannot comprehend the good (Acts 16:14; Eph. 4:18; 2 Cor. 3:12-18; John 1:11; 8:43; Matt. 13:14; 1 Cor. 1:18,21; 2:14). Man in his fallen nature has no desire to do good (Matt. 7:18; John 3:3; 8:43; 15:5; 6;64,65; Ezek. 11:19; Eph. 2:1,5). And thus, we are back to grace, through faith, which are (is) the gift of God. It is impossible to deny this unless you simply butcher the Greek. This is a little off-topic so if you want to, you can respond here: http://www.onlinebaptist.com/messageboards/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17099&p=256151#p256151

Love,
Madeline
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Nice try - but bad exegesis on the Greek. Both grace and faith are objects of "gift." Actually, to even be a bit more precise, the entire 1st chapter of Ephesians is in view, which revolves around election. Word studies will not cut it. You have to know the language. Let's be more precise, ok JJJ? The reason you have a deviant view of salvation, is because you probably don't understand yourself as a sinner, and its extent. Man in his corrupt nature cannot comprehend the good (Acts 16:14; Eph. 4:18; 2 Cor. 3:12-18; John 1:11; 8:43; Matt. 13:14; 1 Cor. 1:18,21; 2:14). Man in his fallen nature has no desire to do good (Matt. 7:18; John 3:3; 8:43; 15:5; 6;64,65; Ezek. 11:19; Eph. 2:1,5). And thus, we are back to grace, through faith, which are (is) the gift of God. It is impossible to deny this unless you simply butcher the Greek. This is a little off-topic so if you want to, you can respond here: http://www.onlinebaptist.com/messageboards/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17099&p=256151#p256151

Love,
Madeline



Madeline,

There is no exegesis involved. It is simple first year greek grammar.
"dia pisteos" CANNOT be the subject. This is a prepositional phrase. "Theou to doron;" CANNOT be referring to a prepositional phrase. Also, "touto" (that;"kai touto ouk ex humon") is in the neuter and can ONLY be referring back to another neuter(not a feminine) which the only neuter word is "sesosmenoi"(saved). "Chariti"(grace) and "pisteos"(faith) are both feminine.

Either way you dice it, salvation is "the gift of God".

So either God just didn't "understand" calvinism, or he didn't "understand" grammar.

Truth is he knows grammar. He just didn't invent calvinism. John Calvin did.

God bless!
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JJJ,

I,for one, never said we had no choice. To believe that we have no choice is a false doctrine called "irresisible grace".

I still say that we have nothing at all to brag about and this is what Ephesians 2:8-9 is saying. I didn't muster up enough faith to be saved. I had NOTHING.

Let me try to explain something to you.
I had been lost for a long long time. I had heard preaching MANY times but I had no faith to believe or maybe, I didn't WANT to believe? The Bible says that the heart is deceitful above all things. But I had no faith. I was an agnostic.....I was that fool that said in his heart..."there is no God". I believed in evolution. I mean...I was a hard case. I COULD NOT have believed on my own.

At any rate, that morning when I got saved, the preacher didn't get up there and tell any jokes.....It took a preacher, filled with the Holy Ghost, to draw me to Jesus. As the preacher preached the Word of God with compassion and love, something happened. It was no longer a preacher preaching.....It was God speaking to my heart. I realized that I was a lost, hopeless, helpless sinner. I realized for the first time that Jesus was real and that He was speaking to me personally. It took the power of God to get me to believe. I was in the presence of the King of Glory!! I junked all my pride! I called out loud to Jesus.....I mean....He was right there in the room.
It was all God's doing.
It tool the POWER of the Holy Ghost, using a spirit filled man, preaching the Word to birth me into the family of God. God did it ALL my friend. The OnLy thing I did was say yes. I put my trust in Jesus.
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I put my trust in Jesus.


Exactly. He brings the message to us, the Holy Ghost convicts us of our sins, we agree with him(faith), and his grace saves us. That is faith. Trusting is faith. It is not some magical unknown thing. It is not something that requires any effort. It's just us saying he's right. Faith in itself does absolutely nothing. It is God's response to that faith that saves us. His promises hold true that if we only repent and believe, he will save us regardless of who we are. He gives the message. We agree with it(faith) or don't agree with it. And if we repent(agree with God against our sins and turn to him) he will save us.

God bless!
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Madeline,

There is no exegesis involved. It is simple first year greek grammar.
"dia pisteos" CANNOT be the subject. This is a prepositional phrase. "Theou to doron;" CANNOT be referring to a prepositional phrase. Also, "touto" (that;"kai touto ouk ex humon") is in the neuter and can ONLY be referring back to another neuter(not a feminine) which the only neuter word is "sesosmenoi"(saved). "Chariti"(grace) and "pisteos"(faith) are both feminine.

Either way you dice it, salvation is "the gift of God".

So either God just didn't "understand" calvinism, or he didn't "understand" grammar.

Truth is he knows grammar. He just didn't invent calvinism. John Calvin did.

God bless!


I was taught Greek by a teacher, we must have had different grammar teachers. God knows both the grammar and that salvation is a gift, which would include both faith and grace. Genesis 6:5 "And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." This moral corruption begins at conception. Psalm 51:5, "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." 1) Fallen man cannot do or work any good. (Matt. 7:17,18; 1 Cor. 12:3; John 15:4-5; Rom. 8:7,8). 2) Fallen man cannot comprehend or apprehend the good (Acts 16:14; Eph. 4:18; 2 Cor. 3:12-18; John 1:11; 8:43; Matt. 13:14; 1 Cor. 1:18, 21; 2:14). 3) Man cannot have any desire towards the good (Matt. 7:18; John 3:3; 8:43; 15:5; 6:64, 65; Ezek. 11:19; Eph. 2:1,5). And thus, we are back to grace, through faith, which are (is) the gift of God. It is impossible to deny this unless you simply butcher the Greek as you have already and ignore all these passages. Hope this helps!

Love,
Madeline
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I was taught Greek by a teacher,


Then, certainly you must know what gender is. And certainly you must know what a prepositional phrase is. Certainly you must know that a pronoun must match it's antecedent in case, gender and number.

Taking some verses and misconstruing them to say that God is responsible for the choice he has given us to make, does not give a simple gospel message whereby an unbeliever can understand their condition and come to God for reconciliation through the blood of Jesus Christ.

John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

The Holy Ghost reproves the WORLD of sin. Not just a few elect. We each have the choice whether we agree with God or not about our sins and about his Son. God's foreknowledge does not choose for us. It is our choice which shaped his foreknowledge.

God bless!
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Then, certainly you must know what gender is. And certainly you must know what a prepositional phrase is. Certainly you must know that a pronoun must match it's antecedent in case, gender and number.

Taking some verses and misconstruing them to say that God is responsible for the choice he has given us to make, does not give a simple gospel message whereby an unbeliever can understand their condition and come to God for reconciliation through the blood of Jesus Christ.

John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

The Holy Ghost reproves the WORLD of sin. Not just a few elect. We each have the choice whether we agree with God or not about our sins and about his Son. God's foreknowledge does not choose for us. It is our choice which shaped his foreknowledge.

God bless!


I am aware of those terms JJJ, please don't insult my intelligence. Please take note. In verses 8, 9 "ho gar cavritiv ejste sesw/smevnoi dia; pivstew", "for by grace you have been saved through faith." The connective gar has the force of providing support for the writer's stress on the surpassing richness of God's grace to believers in v 7. He has been right to focus on the display of such grace as central to God's purpose, for, as he had said earlier, it is by grace that believers have been saved. The repetition of the great truth with which he had already interrupted the flow of thought in v 5b serves as a lead into a statement about the nature of salvation in terms of the relationship between grace and works. It is a repetition which has two variations from v 5b. The first is that this time a definite article accompanies the noun "grace," helping to underline that this is the same grace of which the writer has been speaking in v 7. The second is the addition of dia; pivstew", "by faith." The more frequently used phrase in the undisputed Paulines is "ejk pivstew", but that the two phrases were synonymous for Paul is indicated by their interchangeability in Gal 2:16; Rom 3:25, 26; 3:30. Ephesians prefers dia; pivstew" (cf. 3:12,17). As in Rom 3:22
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