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Eternal security question


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Use John 10:27,28 to prove the doctrine of Eternal Security to NOSAS proponents, and they'll just tell you that a believer can "chose" to walk away from God by their own free will. In other words the believer can choose to pluck him/herself out of God's hand. :roll


Yes, but the same person would do the same with any other verse you showed them...unless the Spirit of God opened their eyes.


It clearly says "they shall never perish".
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Here are my questions, If we could give back God's gift to us back how would we do it? Since the gift is received through faith and that faith itself is a gift of God how would this be accomplished? Seeing eternal life is not tangible because it is procured by faith what exactly would be given back?



How do you figure faith is a gift from God?

Matthew 16:8 Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?

That would contradict several times where Jesus called people of little or no faith. Why would he call them that if God had to give it to them for them to have any?

Also, my favorite verses on this subject, as quoted before, would have to be 2 Timothy 2:11-13:

2nd Timothy 2:11-13
11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
14 ¶ Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

When we repent and believe and he gives us eternal life, then we have passed from death to life. How eternal is eternal life if you can lose it? The biggest problem that arminianists will run into is what happens with that new creation in the believer.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

If that new creation cannot know sin:

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

(Our flesh still can sin but that new creation cannot. That is where the warring in "members" takes place(Romans 7:23).)

Anyhow, if that new creation that is inside of us after believing cannot sin then how can it be put to death?

It cannot.

Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Not our righteousness, but his. As long as he is righteous, then eternal security is still in place.

God bless!
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How do you figure faith is a gift from God?

Matthew 16:8 Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?

That would contradict several times where Jesus called people of little or no faith. Why would he call them that if God had to give it to them for them to have any?

Also, my favorite verses on this subject, as quoted before, would have to be 2 Timothy 2:11-13:

2nd Timothy 2:11-13
11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
14 ¶ Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

When we repent and believe and he gives us eternal life, then we have passed from death to life. How eternal is eternal life if you can lose it? The biggest problem that arminianists will run into is what happens with that new creation in the believer.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

If that new creation cannot know sin:

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

(Our flesh still can sin but that new creation cannot. That is where the warring in "members" takes place(Romans 7:23).)

Anyhow, if that new creation that is inside of us after believing cannot sin then how can it be put to death?

It cannot.

Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Not our righteousness, but his. As long as he is righteous, then eternal security is still in place.

God bless!


JJJ,

Hello again, seems you enjoy trying to put me on the spot which is fine "iron sharpeneth iron".

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Since I doubt that God plays cards then what we are dealt must be faith and it must come from God, I reckon (southern drawl here) it must be given. How else would we get it? Faith has to be there prior to salvation and therefore is not a spiritual gift none-the-less it is from God which makes it a gift.

orvals
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JJJ,

Thought I would throw this verse out just in case someone remembers it.

2 Thessalonians 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

This verse is not speaking of faith in general but specific saving faith.

orvals

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JJJ,

Hello again, seems you enjoy trying to put me on the spot which is fine "iron sharpeneth iron".

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Since I doubt that God plays cards then what we are dealt must be faith and it must come from God, I reckon (southern drawl here) it must be given. How else would we get it? Faith has to be there prior to salvation and therefore is not a spiritual gift none-the-less it is from God which makes it a gift.

orvals


Orvals,

I don't desire to put anyone on the spot but I desire for truth to be known. Whether I be in the wrong or someone else, it doesn't matter, there is only one truth and it originates from neither you or I but is the Lord's.

In regards to Romans 12, that is not dealing with salvation. In fact, in context it is dealing with the gifts given within the assembly to each person. Read through the verses following 3 and you will see that.

Also, Ephesians 2:8 only speaks of one gift("the gift of God"). Not 3. The one gift of God spoken of is salvation; not grace and faith.


JJJ,

Thought I would throw this verse out just in case someone remembers it.

2 Thessalonians 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

This verse is not speaking of faith in general but specific saving faith.

orvals


That verse does not speak of who the faith originates from. It only speaks of what they have or don't have. But let's look at verses that speaks of whom that faith originates from:

Matthew 9:22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.

Matthew 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

That's pretty point blank.

Mark 4:40 And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?

Luke 7:9 When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

If he was in the business of giving people faith, then why would he go looking for it?

Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.



Also, this word faith can have slightly different meanings based on it's context.

1) A walk in which the believer should pursue and remain in(Acts 14:22, Acts 16:5, Romans 12:3 and others)

2) Trust (many of the verses quoted above)

3) Reliability (Romans 3:3, Matt. 24:45, Luke 16:10, 1 Cor. 1:9)

God bless!
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Hebrews 12:2 - Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Romans 12:3 - For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Hmmmm....

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Hebrews 12:2 - Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Romans 12:3 - For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Hmmmm....



Those two verses fall within the usage of the first definition: A walk in which the believer should pursue and remain in. For instance, if I say the Christian faith, or the muslim faith, that has nothing to do with trusting something but it is a certain laid out pattern of beliefs. However, the verses dealing with salvation by faith, that has to do with our trust in the Lord. The Lord doesn't give us trust.

But to say that Jesus gives us trust(faith) in him, that is an absolute perversion of the gospel. That will only result in a calvinistic line of theology which I believe is sending many people straight to hell.

God bless!
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Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I had no faith....
I was an agnostic at best.

".....faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.
I not only heard the word preached; I "heard" it with my heart.
The man of God was preaching from the 23rd Psalm and He was preaching in the Holy Ghost with the LOVE and COMPASSION and GLOW of the LOVE of God on his countenance. I "saw" what I was and "saw" how wonderful Jesus was as the preacher, filled with the Spirit preached the word. Through the preaching of the word, I saw that Jesus was REAL....and He loved me.....HE LOVED ME!!
I "saw" the love of God and "heard" His voice, as I was in the presence of His Holy Spirit when the man of God preached. Therefore, the faith came from Him. There was nothing good in me. The only thing that I "did" was to exercise my will. Had I REJECTED the Holy Ghost, I would still be lost, on my way to Hell, and MUCH worse off than before.

God did it ALL my friend. NOTHING that I had got me in.
God gave me the faith to believe.
That's not Calvinism either. I remember distinctly when the thought came.....me or the devil I don't know which gave me the thought...something like "..don't do it"....
I had a choice....and I chose Him.
I headed out of the pew and called out to Jesus before I could get out in the aisle.
It was all Him.

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Those two verses fall within the usage of the first definition: A walk in which the believer should pursue and remain in. For instance, if I say the Christian faith, or the muslim faith, that has nothing to do with trusting something but it is a certain laid out pattern of beliefs. However, the verses dealing with salvation by faith, that has to do with our trust in the Lord. The Lord doesn't give us trust.

But to say that Jesus gives us trust(faith) in him, that is an absolute perversion of the gospel. That will only result in a calvinistic line of theology which I believe is sending many people straight to hell.

God bless!


Concerning the verses you cited on personal "faith." It is God gave them the faith that made them whole whether physically or spiritually. Jesus, being God, could see that faith had been given them and it was to that faith that Jesus responded. Otherwise faith becomes something that we generate and then the initiating work is not of God but of man and such would rob God of glory. God has to move first is a primary function of Biblical theology (except for the Arminian or Pelagian interpretations). Hope this helps!

Love
Madeline
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James 1:6-7
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

If you did not trust God, which is your choice to trust or not, then you get nothing like verse 7 says. We have all been given the ability to trust or not to trust. That's what faith is, it's believing or not believing. To make it into some magical force that God gives to whom he will and refuses to whom he will would be to accuse God of expecting something of man which man cannot do. It would also be accusing God of forcing things on man against man's will. The God of the Bible does neither of those. Fallen man is expected to repent and believe. The gospel is what makes clear to us what we are and who he is. Then we have a choice.

Let me remind you that it took 100% man and 100% God to buy our redemption. Jesus Christ was 100% God as well as 100% man. He is the one who called himself "Son of man" several times in the scriptures. He wore that name as a badge of honor:

Matthew 8:20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.
Matthew 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
Matthew 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
Matthew 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
Matthew 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale

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Concerning the verses you cited on personal "faith." It is God gave them the faith that made them whole whether physically or spiritually. Jesus, being God, could see that faith had been given them and it was to that faith that Jesus responded. Otherwise faith becomes something that we generate and then the initiating work is not of God but of man and such would rob God of glory. God has to move first is a primary function of Biblical theology (except for the Arminian or Pelagian interpretations). Hope this helps!

Love
Madeline


Suppose a child hanging from a tree limb trusted that his father would catch him and let go; would you say that child worked to get down from that tree? Absolutely not. That's a rediculous definition of work and of faith. Faith requires no energy. (The word for "work" is "ergon" which is where we get our word "energy" from.) Faith is just simply trusting him. That is something we can do which is not works. It is something that only we can do. God can't trust for us. If you are waiting around for God to give you faith to get saved, you'll wait yourself right into the flames of hell. You are responsible for believing. Armenians, pelagians, and calvinists are all grossly wrong and do it under the name of theology.

God bless!
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Also, let's examine Eph. 2:8,9 one more time:

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

How many gifts does this verse describe? Can "the" describe plurality? If I said, "The dog" would that mean I'm talking about 3 dogs?

There is only one gift spoken of in this verse. If you break down the sentence structure you will see that one gift is salvation. Not faith. Not grace. Salvation is the gift. Salvation is the ONLY gift spoken of in this verse.

God bless!


Where did the grace come from?
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God gave every man the ability to believe - to respond to the Gospel - that is what the measure of faith is referring to.

However, if God had to "give" faith to someone in order for them to be healed, etc. then there is no way He would rebuke people for not having enough faith or having little faith, etc. The Lord gave me the ability to believe, my amount of faith depends upon me and my trusting in His Word - not on some sovereign gift or dispensation.

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Grace comes from God - however, we need to receive it. That involves faith on our part and also humbling ourselves. It is not given arbitrarily.

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