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orvals

Eternal security question

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Recently I was reading a post in the salvation forum and came across this question concerning eternal security, "is God an indian giver"? As I have thought on this for a while it has brought other questions to my mind. BTW I am OSAS in my theology.

Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 6:23 and 1 John 5:11-12 all state that eternal life is a gift from God.

Here are my questions, If we could give back God's gift to us back how would we do it? Since the gift is received through faith and that faith itself is a gift of God how would this be accomplished? Seeing eternal life is not tangible because it is procured by faith what exactly would be given back?

Your thoughts on these questions

orvals

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I have some friends who would be best classified Weslean Arminian. They believe in the necessity of a clear born again experience, but they see the passages in the N.T. that say "believeth" as to mean those who continue believing. I know all the arguements, but that is how they view it. They don't believe one can lose it, but they believe one can stop placing their faith in the work of Christ and forfiet their salvation. This is not a saved one day lost the next and then saved again experience for they see those who apostasize from the faith as never returning to Christ again for it is impossible to crucifiy him again. The only sign one did not go "too far" is the fact that they would turn again in humble repentance.

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"Believeth" is present tense, which means continually believe. A true Christian will continually believe in Jesus Christ as his Saviour. It does not mean he won't have any doubts about anything, but a true believer who truly trusted Christ alone for salvation at one point is not going to later reject Christ and believe He is not the Saviour or not capable of saving.

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Jhn 5:24 ¶ Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Verily, verily, Absolutely
I say unto you Jesus says to everyone
He that heareth my word, Whoever hears the word of God
and believeth on him that sent me, And believes
hath everlasting life, Suppose you only believed for one minute, or only one second?
Doesn't matter if it was only one second, "hath" means you have everlasting life...right now.
and shall not come into condemnation; And you only believed that one second? Says you shall not come into condemnation.....AND
but is passed from death unto life. You are passed from death unto life

So even if you believed and then stopped believeing, if that were possible, "hath" is still present tense
And "shall not" means "shall not"....

AND....if God gives you everlasting life...and He takes it away, or you lose it...it wasn' "everlasting" to start with.

I heard the word
I believed on the Lord Jesus Christ
I have everlasting life
I shall not be condemned...ever
I have passed from death to life

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Hm, you are missing something:

Jhn 5:24 ¶ Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

It is the person who heareth (present tense) and believeth (present tense - ie. ongoing, continual belief) that hath (present tense, continual) everlasting life. This promise is for true believers - and they WILL continue to believe. Someone who only believed for a second was not a true believer and has no part in this promise of God.

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Hm, you are missing something:

Jhn 5:24 ¶ Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

It is the person who heareth (present tense) and believeth (present tense - ie. ongoing, continual belief) that hath (present tense, continual) everlasting life. This promise is for true believers - and they WILL continue to believe. Someone who only believed for a second was not a true believer and has no part in this promise of God.



Maybe you misunderstood me....

Suppose you only believed for one minute, or only one second?
Doesn't matter if it was only one second, "hath" means you have everlasting life...right now.


OK, I do believe, present tense, but suppose tomorrow, I doubted my salvation? Have you ever done that?
That is unbelief brotherman. Does that change my position in Christ? I don't think so.

2Ti 2:11 [it is] a faithful saying: For if we be dead with [him], we shall also live with [him]:
2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny [him], he also will deny us:
2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, [yet] he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
2Ti 2:14 ¶ Of these things put [them] in remembrance, charging [them] before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, [but] to the subverting of the hearers.

1Jo 3:19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
1Jo 3:20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
1Jo 3:21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, [then] have we confidence toward God.


When you are saved, brother, the Bible says you pass from death unto life......the Holy Ghost comes into your heart the instant you get saved. You are sealed with the Holy Ghost. You cannot be lost....ever.

Of course, if you are really saved, you are a believer, but the Bible says you can forget that you were purged form your old sins....you can iive in unbelief...this is Biblical. But God is STILL faithful.

I'm not holding on to Jesus...He's holding on to me.

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Here are my questions, If we could give back God's gift to us back how would we do it? Since the gift is received through faith and that faith itself is a gift of God how would this be accomplished? Seeing eternal life is not tangible because it is procured by faith what exactly would be given back?


That is strictly conjecture. It doesnt coincide with what the overall scripture teaches.

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Once we are truly saved (believe, confess and repent) we are sealed. It isn't simple belief (as the devil does and trembles). Salvation is through faith that comes from hearing. It all is a gift from God. John 6:27

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Once we are truly saved (believe, confess and repent) we are sealed. It isn't simple belief (as the devil does and trembles). Salvation is through faith that comes from hearing. It all is a gift from God. John 6:27


Absolutely
Faith only comes by hearing the Gospel of Jesus Christ....the Word of God.
"....Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God."

We are saved by grace through faith....

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Here are my questions, If we could give back God's gift to us back how would we do it? Since the gift is received through faith and that faith itself is a gift of God how would this be accomplished? Seeing eternal life is not tangible because it is procured by faith what exactly would be given back?


Eternal life is as real and tangible as God is.


Jhn 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: Jhn 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.

God says if you are His sheep.... He gives you eternal life....and says you will NEVER perish.
Sounds like a done deal to me. :thumb

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Use John 10:27,28 to prove the doctrine of Eternal Security to NOSAS proponents, and they'll just tell you that a believer can "chose" to walk away from God by their own free will. In other words the believer can choose to pluck him/herself out of God's hand. :roll

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Use John 10:27,28 to prove the doctrine of Eternal Security to NOSAS proponents, and they'll just tell you that a believer can "chose" to walk away from God by their own free will. In other words the believer can choose to pluck him/herself out of God's hand. :roll


Yes, but the same person would do the same with any other verse you showed them...unless the Spirit of God opened their eyes.


It clearly says "they shall never perish".

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Here are my questions, If we could give back God's gift to us back how would we do it? Since the gift is received through faith and that faith itself is a gift of God how would this be accomplished? Seeing eternal life is not tangible because it is procured by faith what exactly would be given back?



How do you figure faith is a gift from God?

Matthew 16:8 Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?

That would contradict several times where Jesus called people of little or no faith. Why would he call them that if God had to give it to them for them to have any?

Also, my favorite verses on this subject, as quoted before, would have to be 2 Timothy 2:11-13:

2nd Timothy 2:11-13
11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
14 ¶ Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

When we repent and believe and he gives us eternal life, then we have passed from death to life. How eternal is eternal life if you can lose it? The biggest problem that arminianists will run into is what happens with that new creation in the believer.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

If that new creation cannot know sin:

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

(Our flesh still can sin but that new creation cannot. That is where the warring in "members" takes place(Romans 7:23).)

Anyhow, if that new creation that is inside of us after believing cannot sin then how can it be put to death?

It cannot.

Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Not our righteousness, but his. As long as he is righteous, then eternal security is still in place.

God bless!

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How do you figure faith is a gift from God?

Matthew 16:8 Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?

That would contradict several times where Jesus called people of little or no faith. Why would he call them that if God had to give it to them for them to have any?

Also, my favorite verses on this subject, as quoted before, would have to be 2 Timothy 2:11-13:

2nd Timothy 2:11-13
11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
14 ¶ Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

When we repent and believe and he gives us eternal life, then we have passed from death to life. How eternal is eternal life if you can lose it? The biggest problem that arminianists will run into is what happens with that new creation in the believer.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

If that new creation cannot know sin:

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

(Our flesh still can sin but that new creation cannot. That is where the warring in "members" takes place(Romans 7:23).)

Anyhow, if that new creation that is inside of us after believing cannot sin then how can it be put to death?

It cannot.

Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Not our righteousness, but his. As long as he is righteous, then eternal security is still in place.

God bless!


JJJ,

Hello again, seems you enjoy trying to put me on the spot which is fine "iron sharpeneth iron".

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Since I doubt that God plays cards then what we are dealt must be faith and it must come from God, I reckon (southern drawl here) it must be given. How else would we get it? Faith has to be there prior to salvation and therefore is not a spiritual gift none-the-less it is from God which makes it a gift.

orvals

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JJJ,

Thought I would throw this verse out just in case someone remembers it.

2 Thessalonians 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

This verse is not speaking of faith in general but specific saving faith.

orvals

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JJJ,

Hello again, seems you enjoy trying to put me on the spot which is fine "iron sharpeneth iron".

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Since I doubt that God plays cards then what we are dealt must be faith and it must come from God, I reckon (southern drawl here) it must be given. How else would we get it? Faith has to be there prior to salvation and therefore is not a spiritual gift none-the-less it is from God which makes it a gift.

orvals


Orvals,

I don't desire to put anyone on the spot but I desire for truth to be known. Whether I be in the wrong or someone else, it doesn't matter, there is only one truth and it originates from neither you or I but is the Lord's.

In regards to Romans 12, that is not dealing with salvation. In fact, in context it is dealing with the gifts given within the assembly to each person. Read through the verses following 3 and you will see that.

Also, Ephesians 2:8 only speaks of one gift("the gift of God"). Not 3. The one gift of God spoken of is salvation; not grace and faith.


JJJ,

Thought I would throw this verse out just in case someone remembers it.

2 Thessalonians 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

This verse is not speaking of faith in general but specific saving faith.

orvals


That verse does not speak of who the faith originates from. It only speaks of what they have or don't have. But let's look at verses that speaks of whom that faith originates from:

Matthew 9:22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.

Matthew 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

That's pretty point blank.

Mark 4:40 And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?

Luke 7:9 When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

If he was in the business of giving people faith, then why would he go looking for it?

Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.



Also, this word faith can have slightly different meanings based on it's context.

1) A walk in which the believer should pursue and remain in(Acts 14:22, Acts 16:5, Romans 12:3 and others)

2) Trust (many of the verses quoted above)

3) Reliability (Romans 3:3, Matt. 24:45, Luke 16:10, 1 Cor. 1:9)

God bless!

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Hebrews 12:2 - Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Romans 12:3 - For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Hmmmm....

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Hebrews 12:2 - Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Romans 12:3 - For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Hmmmm....



Those two verses fall within the usage of the first definition: A walk in which the believer should pursue and remain in. For instance, if I say the Christian faith, or the muslim faith, that has nothing to do with trusting something but it is a certain laid out pattern of beliefs. However, the verses dealing with salvation by faith, that has to do with our trust in the Lord. The Lord doesn't give us trust.

But to say that Jesus gives us trust(faith) in him, that is an absolute perversion of the gospel. That will only result in a calvinistic line of theology which I believe is sending many people straight to hell.

God bless!

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Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I had no faith....
I was an agnostic at best.

".....faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.
I not only heard the word preached; I "heard" it with my heart.
The man of God was preaching from the 23rd Psalm and He was preaching in the Holy Ghost with the LOVE and COMPASSION and GLOW of the LOVE of God on his countenance. I "saw" what I was and "saw" how wonderful Jesus was as the preacher, filled with the Spirit preached the word. Through the preaching of the word, I saw that Jesus was REAL....and He loved me.....HE LOVED ME!!
I "saw" the love of God and "heard" His voice, as I was in the presence of His Holy Spirit when the man of God preached. Therefore, the faith came from Him. There was nothing good in me. The only thing that I "did" was to exercise my will. Had I REJECTED the Holy Ghost, I would still be lost, on my way to Hell, and MUCH worse off than before.

God did it ALL my friend. NOTHING that I had got me in.
God gave me the faith to believe.
That's not Calvinism either. I remember distinctly when the thought came.....me or the devil I don't know which gave me the thought...something like "..don't do it"....
I had a choice....and I chose Him.
I headed out of the pew and called out to Jesus before I could get out in the aisle.
It was all Him.

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Those two verses fall within the usage of the first definition: A walk in which the believer should pursue and remain in. For instance, if I say the Christian faith, or the muslim faith, that has nothing to do with trusting something but it is a certain laid out pattern of beliefs. However, the verses dealing with salvation by faith, that has to do with our trust in the Lord. The Lord doesn't give us trust.

But to say that Jesus gives us trust(faith) in him, that is an absolute perversion of the gospel. That will only result in a calvinistic line of theology which I believe is sending many people straight to hell.

God bless!


Concerning the verses you cited on personal "faith." It is God gave them the faith that made them whole whether physically or spiritually. Jesus, being God, could see that faith had been given them and it was to that faith that Jesus responded. Otherwise faith becomes something that we generate and then the initiating work is not of God but of man and such would rob God of glory. God has to move first is a primary function of Biblical theology (except for the Arminian or Pelagian interpretations). Hope this helps!

Love
Madeline

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