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Eternal Security

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Yes, I see the difference. Thank you.

Unfortunately I now have a large group of people at my apartments who are trying to tell me that you can lose your salvation. I showed them Romans 8:38-39 and even John 3:16-18 but they still disagree with me. :sad


Hi BaptistGirl,

It is a good thing that you are trying your best to defend the doctrine of eternal security. May I ask where do your friends come from? What sort of church is it? That explains why they do not believe in eternal security. I have my fair share with Charismatics and Methodists and their main concern about eternal security is that they think that a person must be responsible to make sure they remain saved - they believe that a person loses their salvation if they turn away from Christ.

This is because they do not understand the structure and the system of salvation - that's the problem with the majority of Evangelicals today - they think "getting saved" is just getting saved from hell that is. They forgot to mention that salvation also includes rescuing one from the POWER and the PRESENCE of sin.

Read Romans 8:29-30. What did the Scriptures say about those saved - the elect? No, this is not Calvinism, but these two verses tell us that ALL those that God KNEW beforehand they will come to Christ (and thus, saved) - God predestines that ALL of them will be conformed to the image of Christ. Means, they will all remain saved in the end! Can a person who loses their salvation be conformed to Christ's image in the end?

Read Philippians 1:6. What did the Scriptures say about the work of salvation in us? It will CONTINUE until the day of Jesus Christ - means the work of salvation will never stop until you either die, or get Raptured, whichever happens first - and the end product is, you go to Heaven to be with the Lord.

By the way, Philippians 1:6 also answers the argument most of your friends probably have - ungodly living will cause one to go away from Christ. The verse had stated clearly God's work will CONTINUE in a genuine believer - if a professing believer still lives in ungodliness - no conviction of sin, no genuine knowledge or interest in God's Word, pleasure in worldly things, no spiritual growth, no chastisement when they have sinned - well, i guess you'd say these guys are children of the devil, not God.

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You should use this passage:

John 10:27,28 - My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

There's no way around this one. :smile


So I told my neighbor about this verse and she just ignored the parts that say they will never parish and the parts that says that no man can pluck them out of God's hand. I guess there is no winning this debate.

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So I told my neighbor about this verse and she just ignored the parts that say they will never parish and the parts that says that no man can pluck them out of God's hand. I guess there is no winning this debate.


I know what that is like, Holly. :sad

We have to understand that some people have minds like concrete:::

Thoroughly mixed up and permanently set

I often wonder if arguing with some people is like wrassling with a pig in the mud. After a while we discover that the pig is actually enjoying it. :bang:

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So I told my neighbor about this verse and she just ignored the parts that say they will never parish and the parts that says that no man can pluck them out of God's hand. I guess there is no winning this debate.


I would just let it go for now. Never perishing and not being able to be plucked out of God's hand is the focus of that passage. Sorry to hear about that.

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I would just let it go for now. Never perishing and not being able to be plucked out of God's hand is the focus of that passage. Sorry to hear about that.


yeah, people like that have more faith in themselves than in God who will stand by his promise.

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yeah, people like that more faith in themselves than in God who will stand by his promise.


So true! and so sad! :sad

Psalm 118:8 - It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.

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Thank you all for your support. Unfortunately there are a number of people in my apartments that believe you can lose your salvation. There is only one family I know of that is Baptist and they have been going to a Pentecostal Church that teaches you can lose your salvation. :sad

Tell me, isn't there something in the Bible about the majority usually being wrong and the minority usually being right?

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Eternal Security
The Eternal Security doctrine is the "once saved, always saved" doctrine that so many people have trouble believing, because it just doesn't sound logical.
Actually, it is VERY logical and very scriptural as well. My eternal security in Christ is based on my RELATIONSHIP with God, not my fellowship with Him. I am not saved because I fear God and serve Him, but rather because I have entered into a Father/Son relationship with Him through the Lord Jesus Christ. I was once a child of the Devil and a child of wrath (Jn. 8:44; Eph. 2:3), but now I am a son of God (Jhn. 1:12; I Jhn. 3:2; Rom. 8:14; Gal. 4:5). Upon receiving Christ as my Savior, I was SEALED with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption (Eph. 4:30; II Cor. 1:22), and I am KEPT by the power of God (I Pet. 1:5), not by my own power. Jesus will never leave me nor forsake me (Heb. 13:5; Mat. 28:20), because He BOUGHT me with His own blood (Acts 20:28; I Cor. 6:19-20).

If I choose to be a disobedient child, then my Father in Heaven will CHASTEN me (Rev. 3:19; Heb. 12:4-8; I Cor. 11:30-32), but I will remain a saved and sealed son of God (Jhn. 5:24; I Jhn. 5:11-13; Rom. 8:38-39; Phi. 1:6; Jhn. 6:37; 10:28-29). I am eternally secure in Christ (even if you aren't going to check the references).


http://www.biblebelievers.com/jmelton/h ... 20Security

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One of my friends is a Baptist who belongs to a KJV believing Independent Baptist Church. His church apparently teaches a form of OSAS that says that you can sin to such an extent that you will lose your salvation. What Bible verses can I use to show him that this is not true?

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Ask him to show you what verses teach this - what specific sin you need to commit to be lost again, or how MUCH sin you have to do first to be lost again.

If something is a gift that you can never pay for by your good works in the first place, how do you lose it by not doing enough good works for it later?

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Ask him to show you what verses teach this - what specific sin you need to commit to be lost again, or how MUCH sin you have to do first to be lost again.

If something is a gift that you can never pay for by your good works in the first place, how do you lose it by not doing enough good works for it later?


Okay I'll do that if I remember. :thumb

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I posted this earlier but on the wrong board. Perhaps someone could offer insight into this particular inquiry.
What about Peter and his denial of Christ? He was a true Christian before he denied Christ. He was the first of the apostles to recognize Him as the messiah but still his faith was not strong enough and failed just as Jesus predicted. He later repented and was reconciled to Christ but in the time when he was denying Christ would he have been saved if he had fallen dead and how can this particular event be explained in the framework of Eternal Sanctuary?

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Matthew 10:33 - But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

The word "deny" here is in the aorist tense which suggests that this person continually and willfully rejects Christ as Lord and Savior. This is unlike Peters momentary denials. So if Peter was saved then surely that moment of denial would not have sent him to hades.

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What does temporarily denying Christ in a night of backsliding have to do with losing your salvation? As Madeline pointed out, the verses referring to denying Christ before men and Him denying us, are in the continual sense ie. ongoing denial, not referring to a moment of fear or doubt.

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"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." - Matt. 24:13 (KJV)

"Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." - Romans 11:22 (KJV)

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." - Matt. 7:21 (KJV)

"But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." - 1 Cor. 9:27 (KJV)

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." - Phil. 2:12 (KJV)

"They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away." - Luke 8:13 (KJV)

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Wow - did you just copy paste that from your reply on another thread? If you throw in enough verses taken out of context, will someone magically be convinced you are right?

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Bro Jerry, how do you explain to someone it is not what we do but what Jesus Christ has done that merits salvation? So many religions believe that you have to partake in water baptism and recieve the sacraments and so many other rituals. If people could only realize they are trying in the flesh to accomplish something they are unable to do. This is not criticism but a cry from a heart that has been there.
Even after we are saved we rely on His strength and not ours.

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"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." - Matt. 24:13 (KJV)

"Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." - Romans 11:22 (KJV)

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." - Matt. 7:21 (KJV)

"But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." - 1 Cor. 9:27 (KJV)

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." - Phil. 2:12 (KJV)

"They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away." - Luke 8:13 (KJV)


1) I don't understand how Matt. 24:13 has anything to do with losing one's salvation. That verse reads, ""But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." The context is obviously about the end times and the coming tribulation. Those who do not endure in those times are those who will receive the mark of the beast. They were never saved in the first place. You can't lose what you never had.

2) "Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." - Romans 11:22 (KJV) I can give you the scripural proof that it represents Israel. The point is that the olive tree represents the dispensational blessings of Israel and that when one is cut off they are cut off from those blessings, not salvation, per se. You must understand that there are literally dozens of times in the OT which speak of one being cut off from Israel, but they are not killed, and they do not lose their salvation, assuming that they were saved. They are simply cut off from their People, Israel so they are not eligible for the dispensational blessings promised to a faithful Israel. In short, being cut off form the good olive tree does not mean the loss of salvation, it means being cut off form Israel in which there is the promise of dispensational blessings.

3) "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." - Matt. 7:21 (KJV) Again, I don't see how this implies losing salvation. It seems to me the point is that not everyone who claims to see Christ as Lord actually does see Him as their Lord. It is only those who do the will of the Father who are really Christ's and He theirs. The previous verse proves that is was is meant, "By their fruits ye shall know them". In v.23, Jesus says unto them "...I never knew you," i.e., they were never saved.

4) "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." - 1 Cor. 9:27 (KJV) The context has to winning the prize, not salvation. Therefore, Paul is saying in verse 27 that he doesn't want to be cast away when being considered for the prize.

5) "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." - Phil. 2:12 (KJV) We read in Rom. 2:13, "For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified". This says that one is saved by doing the law. And yet in Rom. 3:21 Paul wrote, "But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested......". This says that one is saved apart from the law. Obviously this is not a contadiction and Paul was not wrong in either case. What we must see is two sides of a truth that make a perfect whole. That is to say, faith without works is dead. So if a man says he has faith he proves that faith by obeying God. In the previous dispensation that obedience was proved by obeying the law that God had given to Israel.

Phil. 2:12 is written for the present dispensation. But it again, gives us the other side that proves the truth. That is to say, when Paul wrote, "by grace ye are saved, not by works" that is one side of the truth and "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" is the other side of that. And Luke 8:13 has been discussed many times on this forum - seek and ye shall find.

Love,
Madeline

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Judas was the son of perdition (cf. 2 Thess. 2:3). Does the phrase "those that Thou gavest Me" refer to those the Father gave to Christ to be saved? Obviously not, because Judas was not a believer and therefore never saved. The only way we can understand the phrase without contradicting Jn. 6:64 is to conclude that "those that Thou gavest Me" refers to those the Father gave to Christ to be followers, not to be saved. We read in John 6:64, "But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him". The question is, what did our Lord mean by "those Thou hast given"? There is nothing in the word itself that indicates that God gave Judas to Christ to be saved. If He had, Judas would have been a believer. But as we find in Jn. 6:64, Judas was never a believer. We must therefore, conclude that God gave the 12, including Judas, to be Christ's disciples, not to be saved. Jesus also referred to Judas as a "devil" among the disciples in John 6:70, the title of a "devil" hardly sounds like a saved person.

Love,
Madeline


John 17:12 KJV While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

The ones The Father gave the son are saved and "none of them are lost." These are the elect ones before the foundation of the world. Judas, the son of perdition was not given by the Father, He was never saved.

God Bless
John

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