Biblical fiat

[Madeline]

I remain convinced that the Eternal Lake of Fire (not Hell) may very well be a star of the type that is a super red-giant that has entered the Super-Nova implosion. At the point where scientists describe as "Maximum Scrunch" (i.e. the implosion has reached its smallest diameter and highest density just before it explodes) the LORD God will call a halt to it and say' date=' [b']"Stop right there". He's doing it now with every atom in the Universe. They would all fly apart if it were not for the Word of His Power.

Now let's consider what there is in a super-nova implosion at minimum diameter (max scrunch)::::

***Intense heat in the neighborhood of 3,000,000,000 degrees F.

***Sulfur in fusion that would be plasma if it were not for the intense compression.

***Gooey, tar-like liquid. It's the compression that forces the temperature up and particles together into a "plasticy", gooey, tar-like state.

***Eternal, never ending.

We see from all of this that all of the criteria for the Eternal Lake of Fire are met. Not only that but a lake of fire is more awful than a furnace of fire for the same reason that liquid heat is more intense than dry heat. In my shop I have an oxy-acetylene torch system. At the neutral point the flame is ~7,350 deg. F. If I'm quick enough I can pass my finger right thru the flme and not be burned. That is the nature of dry heat. Liquid heat however, is a whole lot different. Water boils at 212 deg. F., and even at 150 deg. F. I cannot put my finger into it and pull it out quick enough and not be burned.

Also, realizing as IM4G posted that the Lake of Fire was not created for us but rather for the devil and his angels, we see that the punishment must meet the crime. Any and all human creatures that go there go only because they refused the payment for their sins that Jesus provided in His plan of salvation. Their sins have alll been paid for but they refused that payment. in their insistance to be with the devil and follow him in this life, God simply grants them their wish for the next life. May I say that He (God) does this with great sadness in His heart, since He is not willing that any should perish. Our pastor makes the statement that God thinks so much of man's decisions that He will not over-ride them. If man asks to be saved and comes to God with an open and contrite heart that is broken over his sin, He will grant that with open, loving arms. However, if man refuses, God will grant that too.

"When Satan comes to you and reminds you of your past, just remind him of his future."

I think PE would make a great hellfire and brimstone preacher...scare the sox off of some of these ungodly folks! :smile

[JerryNumbers]

I rightly don't know what the fancy or not so fancy seminaries teach. I don't have much faith in seminaries. A friends son, they had always used the KJ Bible, went off to seminary. When he came back from it his mother told me that he declares that the KJ Bible is no longer the best translation to use. Of course his mom and dad went out and bought what his son calls the best translation because after all their son can now read the original languages and they say he should know what is best.

His dad used to be a great Sunday school teacher, but I fear those days may be over with him pulling his dad into the modern translations usage.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Luke 16:22-24 (KJV)

One thing for sure, the rich man was in much torment and has been so for many years, yet has not stood before the great while throne judgment and thrown into the lake of fire, but yet he is already suffering greatly.

There is many different teachings on what hell really is like, some claim its a state of mind and just being separated from God for ever.

But it seems that hell will be a literal hell and those who go there will suffer physically and will be forever separate from God as well.

And with what Luke 16:22-24 tells us of hell and the rich man wanting to warn his brothers of its harsh punishment I find it surprising that anyone would want to go there just because family and or best friends went there.

I suppose some who hold tightly onto the unbelief may be totally surprised not to find their favorite family member or friend in the depths of hell, they having made a confession of faith in Jesus or maybe even making a deathbed confession.

No doubt those in Matthew 22 hinder others from entering heaven by teaching a false doctrine while even they don't enter heaven themselves. This makes me think of those false teaching churches out there where neither the pastor or teachers are on the path to heaven, but yet they make false pretense that they are teaching people how to enter heaven.

52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

Luke 11:52 (KJV)

[pneu-engine]

I think PE would make a great hellfire and brimstone preacher...scare the sox off of some of these ungodly folks! :smile

Thanx, Madeline. I have already preached on the Eternal Lake of Fire, and told the audience that if I preach this properly they will feel the heat and smell the sulfur (i.e. brimstone).

IM4G, :lol

I was speaking of the time after the Great White Throne judgement when the present earth and all of its contents are burned up and death and Hell are cast into the Lake of Fire. I believe that right now and up until the Great White Throne, Hell is in the center of the earth. We know that it is incredibly hot, because magma (molten rock) comes thru to the earth's surface from fissures in the earth's crust. We call these breaches in the earth's crust volcanoes. Farther down from that and at the center is molten iron and nickel. In industry we have many nickel-iron alloys: monel, inconel, stainless steel, etc. They are all high temperature alloys in that they melt at incredibly high temps. We know that the earth is cooling down, so you can just imagine how hot the earth's center has to be to keep all of the earth's magma heated for these many (approx 6) thousand years. Proof::: The shrinking earth is a result of the cooling.

[Jerry]

All those in Hell will be in there because they rejected the Saviour, however, they will be judged by their works, according to Revelation 20.

There are various verses that refer to degrees of punishment - unless you reject those verses, there is no way anyone can say there are no degrees of punishment:

Mark 14:21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

Luke 12:47-48 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Matthew 18:6-7 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

Matthew 11:20-24 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not: Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

Romans 2:5-6 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

The Bible also teaches there is greater judgment for those who knowingly reject the truth, as compared to those who never knew it.

Hebrews 10:28-29 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Rejecting salvation in this dispensation seems to bring greater judgment than rejecting it in the OT dispensation:

Hebrews 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

[Jerry]

I do not see where there are any Big Sins or Little Sins. Sin is sin.

Some sins are abominations to God - not all sin is. You will find there are things that were sin for the OT believer that are not sin for the NT believer - for example, breaking some of the ceremonial laws, not keeping the sabbath - however, things that were an abomination to God in the OT are still sins today. Those are things He is more against, that offend Him more, than other sins.

[IM4given]

IM4G, :lol

I was speaking of the time after the Great White Throne judgement when the present earth and all of its contents are burned up and death and Hell are cast into the Lake of Fire. I believe that right now and up until the Great White Throne, Hell is in the center of the earth. We know that it is incredibly hot, because magma (molten rock) comes thru to the earth's surface from fissures in the earth's crust. We call these breaches in the earth's crust volcanoes. Farther down from that and at the center is molten iron and nickel. In industry we have many nickel-iron alloys: monel, inconel, stainless steel, etc. They are all high temperature alloys in that they melt at incredibly high temps. We know that the earth is cooling down, so you can just imagine how hot the earth's center has to be to keep all of the earth's magma heated for these many (approx 6) thousand years. Proof::: The shrinking earth is a result of the cooling.

Okay I was thinking of Hell as you describe here, then I guess I was just thinking the Lake of Fire was just another term for the same place in the center of the earth. I did not realize that Hell is going to be cast into the Lake of Fire - so that makes more sense to me now. Thanks for clearing that up. All I really know about Hell is that it is going to be HOT, and that it AIN"T GONNA BE FUN!

[IM4given]

No doubt those in Matthew 22 hinder others from entering heaven by teaching a false doctrine while even they don't enter heaven themselves. This makes me think of those false teaching churches out there where neither the pastor or teachers are on the path to heaven, but yet they make false pretense that they are teaching people how to enter heaven.

52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

Luke 11:52 (KJV)

Okay so I was thinking the same thing when I read those verses. It is NOT just for the scribes and Pharisees of Jesus' day, but all who would lead people astray and prevent them from entering the kingdom. Is it wrong for me to think that such churches/praise centers/etc and their leadership who are following their false doctrines, are leading people astray, etc., are doing Satan's bidding, rather than the works of God? Some of the young people I am in contact with seem to think I ought to be rebuked for even entertaining the idea that these "brothers and sisters" are going to spend and eternity in Hell for their actions?

[pneu-engine]

Okay I was thinking of Hell as you describe here, then I guess I was just thinking the Lake of Fire was just another term for the same place in the center of the earth. I did not realize that Hell is going to be cast into the Lake of Fire - so that makes more sense to me now. Thanks for clearing that up. All I really know about Hell is that it is going to be HOT, and that it AIN"T GONNA BE FUN!

That's a fact.

When Satan comes to discourage you by saying that it is no picnic to serve the LORD, just remind him that Hell is no BBQ either.

[IM4given]

I am not trying to be dense - I really am trying to understand all of this! I do not reject the Holy Scriptures, I am just having an awful time trying to understand them - it is the failure of my human understand, that is causing me such confusion.

There are various verses that refer to degrees of punishment - unless you reject those verses, there is no way anyone can say there are no degrees of punishment:

Mark 14:21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

How does this imply "degrees of punishment? If I was standing in hell - you better believe I would wish I had never been born!

Luke 12:47-48 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Okay so how does this imply level of punishment? Isn't it possible that the person would be beaten with stripes before they were thrown into Hell?

Matthew 18:6-7 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

Okay this again does not imply a certain level of punishment does it? Isn't it more of the "better of to never be born than to be in Hell" kind of thing again?

Matthew 11:20-24 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not: Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

It just says Capernaum is going to be brought down to hell. I do not see levels of punishment? This scipture is not very clear to me, perhaps you can decipher it more?

Romans 2:5-6 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Yep, every man will be comndemned to Hell, which is going to be really really bad.

The Bible also teaches there is greater judgment for those who knowingly reject the truth, as compared to those who never knew it.

Hebrews 10:28-29 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Okay, again I do not understand how this can mean a different degree of punishment? It says a "sorer punishment" - but can't that mean that they will be whipped and beaten first before they are thrown into hell?

Rejecting salvation in this dispensation seems to bring greater judgment than rejecting it in the OT dispensation:

Hebrews 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

I do not get what you are saying Bro. Jerry? Can you please elaborate?

Hebrews 12

25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29 For our God is a consuming fire.

[Jerry]

It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.... That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

This certainly states that these cities that Jesus was addressing were going to have even greater judgment than Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom.

thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath... Who will render to every man according to his deeds

The implication being, the more wicked someone is, the more wrath they are treasuring up.

Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Sorer here means "more evil or aggravated (physically, mentally or morally):--sorer, worse."

It is just grasping at straws to think these various passages are referring to some physical punishment, rather than eternal punishment. How many wicked throughout history were beaten with whips, and how many got away scot free physically - but certainly not spiritually.

Rejecting salvation in this dispensation seems to bring greater judgment than rejecting it in the OT dispensation:

Hebrews 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

Him that spoke on earth was Moses - and it says that when they refused Moses it brought certain judgment - but the contrast is now refusing the Son who spoke from Heaven, and there will be greater condemnation for those who do that.

[Jerry]

I think the question is - is hell a lake of fire' date=' or is it not? If it is, then it will not matter what happens to you or who beats on you, because you will be in eternal torment. If it isn't, then you can say there are different degrees of hell, with little torture chambers and what all.[/quote']

What matters is what the Bible says - if the Bible didn't address the issue at all, then it wouldn't matter. But it does address degrees of punishment, so it does matter.

People go to Hell for rejecting the Saviour - they are judged in Hell for their own sins.

[IM4given]

I guess I am going to have to study on this a bit more, because I still do not see any scriptures that speak about degrees of Hell directly. It might be "implied" at times, but nothing that comes out and clearly says so beyond any shadow of doubt.

I also do not see that an "abomination" is a bigger sin than any other sin.

Having come from a Roman Catholic backgound, perhaps I have a different perception on what is meant by "degrees" of sin and "degrees" of Hell? I certainly do not think that what the Bible teaches about Sin and Hell are the same as what the Catholic Church teaches about those things.

[IM4given]

Here is a tract I found written about Hell, that describes it just the way that I have heard it preached before...

http://www.biblebelievers.com/jmelton/hell.html

It is interesting that while doing my research, I am finding more articles that deny the existence of hell, than I am able to find articles willing to discuss Hell as it is outlined in the Bible. Now that's SCARY! :fireball:

[Jerry]

I also do not see that an "abomination" is a bigger sin than any other sin.

If there is no difference, then why doesn't God call ALL sin an abomination? It is only abominable sins that God judged by deporting the people out of the promised land. If all sin was the same, then He should have kicked them out for ANY sin, yet we do not find that in Scripture.

[IM4given]

If there is no difference, then why doesn't God call ALL sin an abomination? It is only abominable sins that God judged by deporting the people out of the promised land. If all sin was the same, then He should have kicked them out for ANY sin, yet we do not find that in Scripture.

:puzzled: :puzzled: :puzzled: Where is the scripture that says God deported people out of the Promised Land? :puzzled: :puzzled: :puzzled:

As I understand it, God caused them to wander around for 40 years until they finally learned to live the way that He wanted them to live. Everybody that was over 20 years old didn't make it to the Promised Land. Moses himself did not get to enter into the Promised Land, he was only allowed to see it, but not go in. This is the first time I have ever heard of anyone actually being deported from the Promised Land!!!