Biblical fiat

[orvals]

Are there different degrees of hell then too? I can't imagine anything worse than being condemned to hell. I have heard some people even say that they are going to go to hell so that they can be with all of their friends! They have a thought of hell being like some sort of decadent night club. I think Hell is the absolute worst place one could ever be' date=' and I don't think preachers ever preach about it enough.[/quote']


Good question. I am not sure. We do know that both death and hell are thrown into the lake of fire and I am reasonably sure that one corner of the lake of fire will be as hot as another corner. There are probably those on this board who have made a more thorough study of this topic than I and I would invite them for their input. This might be a good thread starter for another topic since I seem to be derailing my own thread.

I, like yourself could think of nothing worse than the lake of fire for eternity. A few years ago a man vistied our church and the following week during visitation I contacted him and made an appointment later that week to present the gospel to him which I did and he got saved. A couple of weeks later he came home from work and backed his truck up into his drive way not noticing that he had hit his gas meter enough that his basement began to fill up with gas. Unfortunately he desided to take a nap before eating his evening meal and as he slep his basement continued to fill (probably inducing sleep for himself) the air conditioner kicked on and the house blew up. He was burned over 80% of his body. When I went to the burn center to see him it was the most horrible sight I have ever seen. His head upper boddy were swollen so about 4 times their normal size and there was a stedy flow of pain killer coming through his IV. He passed away a doy later but the sight remains with me to this day. Hell and the lake of fire is certainly a place to be shunned.

orvals

[HappyChristian]

What a terrible way to go, but praise God he was only burned in this life!!!!

[JerryNumbers]

Up until now I always thought a "Fiat" was a car! I guess I am going to have to think about this one for awhile.

Catholics believe in all different degrees of sin. Big sins cost more indulgence money than the smaller sins. Since I am no longer Catholic I have learned that all sin is equal in the eyes of the Lord - there are no big ones or little ones or "little white sins" that God just winks at. It is all sin. Lusting in one's heart is just as big of a sin as committing adultery.

Now I have always believed that God is all powerful - if God says its so, then it is so. If God says don't do it, then I don't do it. If God says it is an abomination, then it is an abomination. I never once stopped to even consider that there might be some sort of degrees of Godness.

I must say that since the word "fiat" comes from the Latin vulgate version I am already suspicious of the concept.

Surely the sin of telling a little white lie would not be as great as the sin of refusing to believe on Jesus the Savior.

And the punishment of the 2 would be much different.

So the other Jerry is 100% correct, there is a different degree of sin.

I remember years back we invited a newly surrender preach to preach. his main messages was there is no little sin or big sin and sin is a sin that is a sin.

After his message I asked him was a little white lie as great of a sin as unbelief on Jesus Christ. Would the 2 different sins receive completely different punishment? He could not answer me for his mouth fell wide open.

Finally he said I never thought of that.

But of course 1 sin is all it takes for us to deserve hell.

And of course God never winks at any sin. But its a fact, some sins are worse than other sins, some has much more sever punishment than others. That is why there is a sin which is a sin unto death, John 5:16.

Edited to add.

47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
Luke 12:47-48 (KJV)

Different degrees of punishment in hell.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:12 (KJV)

All the unsaved will be judged according to their works, and will be punishes accordingly.

[IM4given]

After his message I asked him was a little white lie as great of a sin as unbelief on Jesus Christ. Would the 2 different sins receive completely different punishment? He could not answer me for his mouth fell wide open.

Doesn't your question relate to the unpardonable sin? If so, then that is not something that is a degree of sin either - it is a sin against the Holy Spirit and is unpardonable. All of the others can be forgiven except that one, so rather than saying this sin is a bigger sin than the sin of telling a lie is wrong - it isn't more or less - it is what it is. There can be no price or bond that can be set for that sin, can there?

(I also believe that his very own mother, Mary, committed this unpardonable sin - and that she was not assumed into heaven as the RCC like to believe.)

Mark 3

22 And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.
23 And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?
24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.
27 No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.
28 Verily I say unto you , All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

Matthew 12

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

John 3

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

[JerryNumbers]

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No.

It seems to be quite clear in the Bible those who enter hell some will be punished with more stripes than others.

45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
Luke 12:45-48 (KJV)

The sin of murder is much worse than the sin of telling a little white lie.

The sin of adultery is much worse than telling the little white lie.

The point it all sins are not equal, some sins carries a much more sever punishment.

But the point one ought to make is it takes only one sin to make a person deserves hell and be in need of the Savior.

But of course the worse sin is rejecting Jesus as Savior.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

These verse you posted make it very clear, they are 2 groups or classes of people in this world, believers and unbelievers.

[IM4given]

I would think that a person who was burning in the eternal lake of fire would not care if they were given 1 stripe or 100 stripes! I am not convinced there are different degrees of punishment - hell is.... well, hell. It is definitely not a place some people may think that it is.

Some people preach that Hell is simply a state of mind, or that it is simply a loss of fellowship with God. Too many preachers are too soft when it comes to telling people about Hell and what it really is. They are afraid if they tell people the truth about hell, it might scare them. Well, brother they ought to be scared.

I believe that Hell is a literal, actual physical place of eternal torment.

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

When I die, I want the preacher to tell my family members and loved ones about hell. I want him to preach it so hard and so realistically that their feet will feel as if they are in the flames! I want him to mention it at least ten times during the funeral service, more if possible. I don't want for them to go away from my funeral thinking that hell is some sort of hedonistic country-club and the devil is the maiter'd. I want them to know that ALL have sinned and come short of the Glory of God, and that hell is where the rejectors of the Gospel will go, as the scriptures state in [bible]Matthew 10:15[/bible]

I don't want them to get the idea that hell ain't so bad, that they have only sinned a little bit, so that their punishment will only be a couple of stripes across their backs and then they will go on their merry way. Hell is forever, it is eternal, and it is everlasting fire and flames. I want him to tell them to imagine the hottest desert they have ever been in, the hottest blast furnace they might have ever encountered, or imagine a nuclear holocaust and then imagine a hell that is a 100 times hotter than that. Is anyone really going to worry about whether or not they get one stripe or one hundred stripes in such as place as that? The stripes across the back will be nothing compared to the pain of always burning and never dying from the burns, don't you think? It will be nothing compared to dying of thirst, of having a parched throat and a swollen tongue, begging for even a drop of water to drink, and never being able to slake that thirst or die from dehydration, don't you think? There will be no chance of relief in hell.

When I was a little girl, I could take a beating from a grown man with a leather belt, 5, 10, 15 times, and never shed a tear. But I can guarantee you that hell is not going to be like that, brother. The scriptures tell me that Hell is not some place that anyone ought to aspire to. I do not think there will be an degrees of punishment in hell. A murderer is going to suffer the same torments as a liar or a thief.

[John81]

Doesn't the question come down to this:

Is hell the place where those who rejected Christ will spend eternal punishment for failing to accept Christ...

OR

Is hell the place where those who rejected Christ will spend eternity being punished by differing degrees depending upon the type/amount of sins they committed besides rejecting Christ?

[IM4given]

While I take a great deal of enjoyment and pleasure thinking about what Heaven will be like, it is truly terrible to think about what hell is really like. Most preachers don't preach it, most people will not listen even if you do. People are soft on sin, prefering to talk about "the wages of sin is death" and that doesn't sound all that bad, because we will all have to die sometime, right? But then you ought to learn about where you spend your eternity - it is your own choice about where to spend eternity.

I think the question is - is hell a lake of fire, or is it not? If it is, then it will not matter what happens to you or who beats on you, because you will be in eternal torment. If it isn't, then you can say there are different degrees of hell, with little torture chambers and what all.

[John81]

Those that I've read who espouse the idea of degrees of hell believe it to be something similar to acutal temperature degrees, so to speak.

Sort of like those who lived a "good life" while rejecting Christ might burn forever at 100 degrees while a "worse" sinner might burn at 212 degrees, the mass murderer at 500 degrees, etc.

All would be burning in the fire but some would experience a more severe burning.

However, is Hell and the Lake of Fire the eternal punishment for rejecting Christ or is it also an eternal punishment for all the sins of those who have rejected Christ? If it's the first, then it would seem all would suffer the same. If the latter, then degrees of punishment may be fitting.

On the subject of preaching Hell: I agree, it's far too little preached upon today. Many preachers today won't even mention Hell or eternal punishment. Instead, the preach about eternal separation from God. Whatever happened to the fire and brimstone preachers of days gone by?

[IM4given]

I have burned myself in the kitchen just a little bit, and I can tell you that it is really painful to get burned! I have seen people who have been burned in housefires and accidents, and it is terrible and leaves not only physical but severe emotional scars as well. It is dreadful to even consider that in an Eternal Lake of Fire, humans will feel all of the pain and suffering that a person feels today, without any relief or escape from the fire.

I wonder about those Buhddist Monks who sit crossed legged in a street, douse themselves with gasoline, then light themselves on fire - do they really believe that their eternal souls will be released from the physical pain of their actions, or do they go from the physical pain and torture of their actions into an eternal spiritual agony from the moment of their physical death into eternity?

Is it really going to matter if Satan's jacuzzi is set at 212 degrees, or 500 degrees? Either way you're cooking in Hell's Kitchen. Is it going to matter if you are slow roasted or char broiled or flambeyed? No matter what you are going to burn!

According to my Bible, Hell is prepared for the Devil and his angels [bible]Matthew 25:41[/bible] ; the Wicked [bible]Revelations 21:8[/bible]; the Disobedient [bible]Romans 2:8,9[/bible] ; Fallen Angels [bible]2 Peter 2:4[/bible] , the Beast and the False Prophet [bible]Revelations 19:20[/bible] ; Worshippers of the Beast [bible]Revelations 14:11[/bible], and rejectors of the Gospel [bible]Matthew 10:15[/bible] .

Now how popular do you think such a sermon will be recieved in today's modern world? How many people are willing to swallow the doctrine that Hell is not a real actual place, but a just more of a "frame of mind?" doesn't that sound so much nicer? it will not distrub them or upset them as much? If a person goes to Seeker Sensitive service, I guarantee they will never hear the word "HELL" cross anyone's lips, for fear they might offend someone.

When was the last time you ever heard a preacher preach about the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus that Jesus himself spoke about in [bible]Luke 16:19-31[/bible] ? I can honestly say I have not heard that sermon but once or twice in my whole life, because preachers are afraid of it! They don't like to tell folks what their alternative to Heaven is going to be! There can be only one of two places where your soul will spend eternity, but they don't like to tell them about the REAL Hell.

I dunno, maybe it is easier to think that Hell is a matter of degrees, and if you just sin a little bit you won't have to stand as close to the potbellied stove as the people who have been really bad like Adolph Hitler or Saddam Hussien? :dunno: It would seem that anyone who truly cares about the souls of lost sinners would feel compelled to tell folks the unvarnished truth every once in awhile, wouldn't you think?

[John81]

I know early on in my Christian walk the Lord convicted me of the reality of Hell and the awfulness of it. I became very zealous of warning family and friends of Hell and pointing them to their One hope of salvation and the blessings that come from being in Christ.

Sadly, I received only scorn and negative feedback. :sad

It's so very true that folks don't want to hear about Hell but that's exactly what they need to hear about.

Too many want to preach only about "God is love" or even speak of salvation in a more generic sense as in "you need to come to Christ" without really even telling folks just what that means or how it's done.

Constantly preaching the wonders of heaven without warning about the horrors of Hell is only preaching half the story. Some folks will not pay heed to the Gospel unless they are compelled to do so by fear of Gods Judgement and eternity in a literal, burning Hell.

[JerryNumbers]

Lots of things matter, that is if we derive them from Bible study, and the Bible surely teachers there are different degrees of punishment for those who go on to eternal punishment in the lake of fire.

By the way, this teaches that know one will get more stripes than they deserves, that Christ is completely fair in the punishment that He will hand out at the Great White Throne Judgment to all of the lost people.

Why is it you seem to be putting this down? Your puzzling me on this, I've been just showing you what the Bible teaches, nothing more nor nothing less.

Oh, by the way, the same is true for the Judgment of the Saints.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

When the saints stand before Jesus some will lose rewards and be saved as by fire, but others will have rewards given them, again, this just goes to show that Jesus' judgment will be completely fair and everyone will get just what the deserve, and nothing more. But take notice, the one who loses the most at the judgment of the saints will not lose their salvation, but their bare salvation is all they will receive.

2 John 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

But the great thing is in heaven there will be no jealously. That is no one will be jealous of those who receive more rewards than they, everyone will be happy and content.

Oh What A Wonderful Reunion That Will Be.

We may not, that is all the saints, get to meet on earth, but we shall be together in heaven praising our Lord and Savior.

[IM4given]

I don't think I have put anything down? I have just never heard it preached before, so I was wondering about it? Is that putting it down? I have never heard of Hell preached in degrees of punishment? What does that Hell look like from your perspective?

I have only heard Hell preached in terms of the "Lake of Fire" perspective. If Hell is indeed the Eternal Lake of Fire, how can it have degrees of punishment to it - wouldn't the fire and eternal burning alone be punishment enough?

I have heard very few preachers even mention Hell, let alone preach/teach about it. So far in my study of it, I have read through all of the biblical descriptions of Hell , which I have posted, and then included my thoughts about it as I read those passages. Then I read about who Hell has been prepared for, and I posted my thoughts about those verses as i read them. In no ways did I argue or put down anything anyone has said about Hell, I am just trying to wrap my feeble brain around the whole concept of Hell. If my understanding of Hell is off-kilter then please elaborate and tell me what Hell is really like? :hmm

I read that the punishment of Hell is described as bodily, [bible]Matthew 5:29,30[/bible]; In the soul [bible]Matthew 10:28[/bible] ; and only one verse that says with degrees [bible]Matthew 23:14[/bible].

Matthew 23

13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

Here are the thoughts that race through my brain when I read those verses of scripture:

Is this punishment for anyone who would "shut up the kingdom of heaven" - such as the Roman Catholic Clergy, Apostate Seeker Sensitive Preachers, Television Evangelists, Evangelical Preachers and so forth who preach a false gospel using man-made MV Bibles, and are using the name of God for their own personal egos and finaincial gains - or was it only reserved for the Pharisees themselves?

Is the reason Jesus included "scribes" in his statement because they were writing false gospels of their own doing, to make it say what THEY wanted it to say, rather than writing the Holy Scriptures - isn't that what the plethora of MVs do too?

So it is not just the ones who preach the false gospel, but also the one who write these false gospels that he includes in the greater damnation?

Who is going to recieve greater punishments in Hell? What would that greater punishment consist of? As I said, I am just attempting to figure this all out in my brain - how does this notion of greater punishments correspond with all of the other biblical descriptions of Hell?

Like I said, this is NOT a pleasant subject, and most preachers will not even mention Hell, let alone preach about it, they just sort of gloss over it without elaborating any further. So that just leaves lay people like me to stuggle with the questions and muddle along, reading the scriptures and trying to put my faulty human understanding on the subject.

I am also wondering if this subject one of those things they must not talk about at those fancy Seminaries? I would think any good Bible College that teaches about the glories of Heaven, would also teach about the agonies of Hell. Don't they teach about the whole Bible from Genesis to Revelation? Maybe that is why there has been such a falling away of our preachers in these last days? :huh:

[pneu-engine]

I remain convinced that the Eternal Lake of Fire (not Hell) may very well be a star of the type that is a super red-giant that has entered the Super-Nova implosion. At the point where scientists describe as "Maximum Scrunch" (i.e. the implosion has reached its smallest diameter and highest density just before it explodes) the LORD God will call a halt to it and say, "Stop right there". He's doing it now with every atom in the Universe. They would all fly apart if it were not for the Word of His Power.

Now let's consider what there is in a super-nova implosion at minimum diameter (max scrunch)::::

***Intense heat in the neighborhood of 3,000,000,000 degrees F.

***Sulfur in fusion that would be plasma if it were not for the intense compression.

***Gooey, tar-like liquid. It's the compression that forces the temperature up and particles together into a "plasticy", gooey, tar-like state.

***Eternal, never ending.

We see from all of this that all of the criteria for the Eternal Lake of Fire are met. Not only that but a lake of fire is more awful than a furnace of fire for the same reason that liquid heat is more intense than dry heat. In my shop I have an oxy-acetylene torch system. At the neutral point the flame is ~7,350 deg. F. If I'm quick enough I can pass my finger right thru the flme and not be burned. That is the nature of dry heat. Liquid heat however, is a whole lot different. Water boils at 212 deg. F., and even at 150 deg. F. I cannot put my finger into it and pull it out quick enough and not be burned.

Also, realizing as IM4G posted that the Lake of Fire was not created for us but rather for the devil and his angels, we see that the punishment must meet the crime. Any and all human creatures that go there go only because they refused the payment for their sins that Jesus provided in His plan of salvation. Their sins have alll been paid for but they refused that payment. in their insistance to be with the devil and follow him in this life, God simply grants them their wish for the next life. May I say that He (God) does this with great sadness in His heart, since He is not willing that any should perish. Our pastor makes the statement that God thinks so much of man's decisions that He will not over-ride them. If man asks to be saved and comes to God with an open and contrite heart that is broken over his sin, He will grant that with open, loving arms. However, if man refuses, God will grant that too.

"When Satan comes to you and reminds you of your past, just remind him of his future."

[IM4given]

Okay, now I am more confused than ever! Is Hell not the same place or synonymous with the Lake of Fire? I thought the Lake of Fire was another name for Hell? The Lake of Fire is reserved for the Devil and his angels, right? Then what about these verses of scripture found in Matthew that Jesus taught us about Heaven and Hell and ever-lasting punishment vs eternal life? :puzzled: :puzzled: :puzzled:

Matthew 25

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Also you did not answer the question about the "scribes and Pharisees" - was he just speaking of those in his time, or was he talking about ALL of those who would "shut up the kingdom of heaven against men?"

Matthew 23

13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.