Biblical fiat

[orvals]

A quick question. A biblical fiat is a direct command from God. Are there degrees of biblical fiat's? For instance when God called the heaven and earth into existance there was no option to disobey but when God calls us to come out from among them and touch not the unclean thing though it is a command it is one that some can disobey. (not saying they should) Is the fiat of creation different than the fiat's of authority?

look forward to reading your responses.

orvals

[pneu-engine]

A quick question. A biblical fiat is a direct command from God. Are there degrees of biblical fiat's? For instance when God called the heaven and earth into existance there was no option to disobey but when God calls us to come out from among them and touch not the unclean thing though it is a command it is one that some can disobey. (not saying they should) Is the fiat of creation different than the fiat's of authority?

look forward to reading your responses.

orvals

God in His exceedingly insurmountable Mercy and Grace doesn't deal with us after our sins, but according to His own Goodness. We should obey immediately as Christ did. The book of Mark portrays Christ as a perfect Servant, and the most prolific word describing Jesus' actions is "straightway", i.e. immediately and without hesitation. On the other hand, we do not; we should, but don't.

When we disobey, either by ommission or commision, we lose rewards.

We cannot kill time without injuring eternity.

[Madeline]

A quick question. A biblical fiat is a direct command from God. Are there degrees of biblical fiat's? For instance when God called the heaven and earth into existance there was no option to disobey but when God calls us to come out from among them and touch not the unclean thing though it is a command it is one that some can disobey. (not saying they should) Is the fiat of creation different than the fiat's of authority?

look forward to reading your responses.

orvals

I must confess that I had to look up "fiat" in the dictionary. The definition is, "A formula of sanction, consisting of the word fiat, by which authority is given, hence a sanction; decree".

So neither the creation or the law of Moses is a "fiat". The Bible does not say that the creation of Gen. 1:1 is a decree, it simply says that God created. And the law of Moses is a law, not a fiat. But let's talk about the real question here, which is as I understand it, "are there degrees to which one must obey God?"

You know, I think the best way to answer that question is to see yourself talking one to one with Jesus Christ. Here are two possible answers to that question, and I will let you choose which one you will say to Him.

1) "Lord, I obeyed what I thought to be your will with all the power and love that Thou gave me to do so. I know that I was not 100% successful and I beg your forgiveness for all the times that I disappointed you.'

2) "Lord, I just didn't think some of the things you wanted of me were all that important so I kind of, you know, just didn't pay a whole lot of attention to a few".

Love,
Madeline

[Madeline]

Btw orvals, thanks for bringing up this subject as it will make for an excellent bible study. :thumb

[Madeline]

Here is some more to contemplate on. I did a bible study on this subject, and have found that the word "fiat" comes from the Latin jussive subjunctive used by the Vulgate version of the Bible to translate Genesis 1:3 etc.: fiat lux! means "let there be light!".

God could certainly have made us no morally different than stars or rocks or plants. However, we are so dramatically different from objects and creatures without free will that the astounding magnitude of that difference escapes almost everyone. We are so materially small, and yet our egos lay claim to the universe. In an average living room, one could pack a thousand human bodies "phone booth stuffing style"; in a city park, millions; but when we think of what we see as we walk around we scarcely ever appreciate the magnitude of just how small the portion of the earth we occupy is and how incredibly small we are within it. Because we can see or envision it, we think we somehow we can manage it. It takes something as massive as the Grand Canyon to impress people with their own minuscule proportions. How much smaller are we not when compared to a continent, or the planet, or the solar system, or to the least of the other features of the universe of which we are aware (none of which could ever contain God; all of which we created by Him in an instant)? Yet in our egos we imagine ourselves large and all other things manageable. We seem to believe that we are in some ways lords of all we can survey or imagine, even though a small boulder in some wilderness has more mass. We seem to think that we can effect whatever we wish as well; that nothing on earth is beyond our capabilities if only we set our minds on it; we even imagine that we can storm the physical heavens; that whatever lies beyond our individual ability to effect or control yet lies within our collective grasp as human beings or at least will one day. In fact and in truth, left only to the resource of our physical body we would be hard pressed to dig a hole in the earth with our bare hands big enough for the rudest shelter. Yet we imagine the tools and technology and collective human resources and knowledge, pathetically small as they are in fact when compared even to earthly phenomena (as any serious storm, or fire, or earthquake will serve to show), we imagine them to be almighty, and imagine that they belong to us individually at least to some degree. And perhaps worst and most deluded of all, we imagine that we will not die. As with the other parts of our psychological self-image discussed above, it is not that we do not know "better" in some sort of a detached, purely academic way (indeed we do), but emotionally and practically, this is what we really feel and this is how we really act - if we are not going to die today it is as good as never dying at all. For there is no other way to explain most human behavior apart from the principle that it takes place in complete denial of one's own mortality. People plan, and lust, strive and conspire, hope and toil as if it were not that case that human life is completely futile, and further as if they will be around forever to enjoy it. They know in an abstract way that they will not live forever, but live their lives as if that were indeed the case.

The proper Christian perspective, of course, is much different from the fleshly point of view described, but since it is inherent in the flesh to think this way, Christians are always struggling against this worldly point of view as well. It is very easy for us to get caught up in the same foolish thought patterns. Indeed, to some degree it may be important that this is true. For the capacity to think in terms beyond the shell of this body, to look ahead in time instead of being focused only on the immediate present, and to anticipate and appreciate the essential eternity that God has embedded in the universe is what being a moral creature, a creature possessed of free will, is all about. Because of the universal corruption that has obtained since Adam, true clarity of thought on all of these issues only shines through into a person's heart through the truth of God, whether through natural or special revelation (i.e., what God has made or what He has said). The correct response to realizing how small we are, how powerless we are, and how ephemeral we are, is to appreciate the infinity of God and to seek Him and His goodness. That is not, sadly, the universal response among human beings (far from it) and even believers have a hard time being consistent in this area under the various pressures of life (and when lacking proper biblical "food"). But you cannot have one without the other: without the potential of denying the immensity, omnipotence, and eternity of God (and arrogating these qualities to oneself instead), there could not be the corresponding capability of heart to respond to God and seek Him and His solution to smallness, weakness, mortality - Jesus Christ our Lord. This is largely what being made "in the image and likeness of God" means.

So God could have made us, made the angels too for that matter, ever responsive and only responsive to "fiats", and of course our time and our opportunity to turn our back on the will of God is limited. Indeed, only during "history" will there be any disparity between God's will and the will of His creatures. We pray every day "thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven", and it will be a marvelous day indeed when at last there is no distinction between human (or angelic) will and God's will. For once sin is burned out the universe once and for all at the end of Christ's millennial reign, like Adam and Eve in the garden, we will be able to conceive and desire nothing contrary to God's will (the only key difference being that in the new heavens and new earth, we will not even be subject to the potential of "falling" as Adam and Eve were of necessity in order to test their free will - for we are already being tested). Until that marvelous day, the existence of choice, the fact that creatures of free will are in respect of that will "like gods" (Ps. 82:6; Jn. 10:34; cf. Ps. 136:3; Ps. 8:5; 82:1; 138:1), means that the potential will continue to exist to disobey the will of God in nearly unbelievably arrogant ways (like the Pharaoh of the Exodus). Just before our Lord's return, in spite of having experienced undeniable proofs of His existence and omnipotence (through a series of unprecedented signs and judgments) the unbelieving population of the Tribulation will respond to God only with blasphemy and cursing (Rev. 16:21), such is the power of free will to harden the heart, to deny the truth, and to oppose the One who cannot be opposed.

God can and will bring the current state of affairs in the cosmos to an end, and the day will come when there is no disparity between His will and ours. Until that day, our free will is our greatest and most incredible asset, but it is also potentially our worst enemy and most self-destructive weapon. The difference ever lies in whether we hand over our will to the will of God, or use it instead to make gods of ourselves.

Galatians 5:16,17 - This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Love,
Madeline

[matie-k]

Psalms 150:3-5
3 Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp.
4 Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.
5 Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.

Good topic. Are these definite commands of God?

[orvals]

"So neither the creation or the law of Moses is a "fiat"

Madeline,

Thanks for all of your responses. Actually my question has much to do with Genesis 1:1 and less to do with obedience. I have always read and heard that creation is by special 'fiat' ie special command from God very similar to when Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey and told the Pharisees that had the disciples held their voice God would have commanded the stones to cry out. Luke 19:40 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.

That would have been a command that could not have been resisted. Now if God spoke the light into existence then it stands to reason that he created light and while you say that creation is not a special fiat I personally believe it is for God created from nothing. The cosmological argument that God is the first cause of all things. Creation was not made from that which existed but from that which did not exist.

Now back to my question, are there degrees of biblical fiats? If not how do we separate general commands in scripture, imperative commands and fiats? Actually I found my answer while trying to clear up my question so it would not be confusing. Here is a quote from Gleason, Archer and Waltke "TWOT" (Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament) ?the root word bara has its basic meaning ?to create?. It differs from yassar ?to fashion? in that the latter primarily emphasizes the shaping of an object while bara emphasizes the initiation of the object. ? The word is used in Qal only of God?s activity and is thus a purely theological term. This distinctive use of the word is especially appropriate to the concept of creation by special fiat.? So a special fiat is something only God can do and in that respect only God could make the stones cry out, only God could make something from nothing, only God can save, only God can call everyone from the grave etc. Fiats would be commands that only God can bring to pass.

What are your thoughts?

orvals

[IM4given]

Up until now I always thought a "Fiat" was a car! I guess I am going to have to think about this one for awhile.

Catholics believe in all different degrees of sin. Big sins cost more indulgence money than the smaller sins. Since I am no longer Catholic I have learned that all sin is equal in the eyes of the Lord - there are no big ones or little ones or "little white sins" that God just winks at. It is all sin. Lusting in one's heart is just as big of a sin as committing adultery.

Now I have always believed that God is all powerful - if God says its so, then it is so. If God says don't do it, then I don't do it. If God says it is an abomination, then it is an abomination. I never once stopped to even consider that there might be some sort of degrees of Godness.

I must say that since the word "fiat" comes from the Latin vulgate version I am already suspicious of the concept.

[Jerry]

Catholics believe in all different degrees of sin. Big sins cost more indulgence money than the smaller sins. Since I am no longer Catholic I have learned that all sin is equal in the eyes of the Lord - there are no big ones or little ones or "little white sins" that God just winks at. It is all sin. Lusting in one's heart is just as big of a sin as committing adultery.

Actually, the Bible does make disctinctions between sins - not like the Catholics who have mortal and venial sins. All sins deserve the penalty of death in God's eyes - however, there are certain sins that are an abomination, certain sins that bring a greater degree of punishment for those who reject the Saviour. Some of them are: causing others to stumble, leading someone (especially a child) astray, rejecting greater levels of spiritual light (ie. someone who never heard the Gospel is not going to be judged as greatly as someone who heard a clear presentation of the Gospel and understood it, but still rejected the Saviour).

[Madeline]

"So neither the creation or the law of Moses is a "fiat"

Madeline,

Thanks for all of your responses. Actually my question has much to do with Genesis 1:1 and less to do with obedience. I have always read and heard that creation is by special 'fiat' ie special command from God very similar to when Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey and told the Pharisees that had the disciples held their voice God would have commanded the stones to cry out. Luke 19:40 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.

That would have been a command that could not have been resisted. Now if God spoke the light into existence then it stands to reason that he created light and while you say that creation is not a special fiat I personally believe it is for God created from nothing. The cosmological argument that God is the first cause of all things. Creation was not made from that which existed but from that which did not exist.

Now back to my question, are there degrees of biblical fiats? If not how do we separate general commands in scripture, imperative commands and fiats? Actually I found my answer while trying to clear up my question so it would not be confusing. Here is a quote from Gleason, Archer and Waltke "TWOT" (Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament) ?the root word bara has its basic meaning ?to create?. It differs from yassar ?to fashion? in that the latter primarily emphasizes the shaping of an object while bara emphasizes the initiation of the object. ? The word is used in Qal only of God?s activity and is thus a purely theological term. This distinctive use of the word is especially appropriate to the concept of creation by special fiat.? So a special fiat is something only God can do and in that respect only God could make the stones cry out, only God could make something from nothing, only God can save, only God can call everyone from the grave etc. Fiats would be commands that only God can bring to pass.

What are your thoughts?

orvals

First of all, I completely agree that God made the world from nothing (ex nihilo). I don't have any particular problem with what you are saying. It's only that I have never heard "fiat" used in a technical theological sense before. I don't think that the citation from the TWOT is using it as technical vocabulary. By "technical vocabulary", I mean in this case using "fiat" to apply to a distinct and clearly recognisable category of action clearly distinguished from other recognisable categories. I don't know of any theological work that uses "fiat" in that sense (not that that is any particular black mark against it!). However, in my own bible studies, it has been my policy to avoid producing categories that are not clearly necessary and useful, and I have always been leery of theological systems that over-categorize. The reason for this is that the technical vocabulary created and the system invented in such theologies tend to drive the way those who subscribe to such views see everything else in scripture, even though sometimes there are good things in each, the incorrect categorization has led to confusion and faulty interpretation). Categorization and systematic theology in general is very important and helpful when it is descriptive. The problem is that all too often in the history of the Church it has become prescriptive, becoming in the practice of some more important than the Bible it purports to explain. God clearly has the power and the right to overrule human free will and the natural order of things. Both of these two areas, God-given creature ability to make decisions and the laws of time and space God has put in place, are important parts of the "mix" of history, as God has ordained the world as a threshing floor for the dividing of the wheat and the chaff: those who choose for God and those who choose against Him. Everything He has done and does should be seen from that point of view, because both the matrix of solid-state universe of time and space with creature free will operating within it and the process whereby God intervenes to overrule free will and to act in ways (whether seen or unseen) that defy the "natural laws" of time and space (and one may add whatever normal ground rules are currently in place for the fallen angels) have all been decreed since before He created the universe, and in the most minute detail imaginable and beyond. God has the power to make anyone and anything do whatever He wants whenever He wants. The only thing that truly limits Him is Himself, His own character, and His own plan. And the only area of which I am aware where God's will ever fails to be completely and immediately carried out is in that special category of creature free will - and only because He has ordained it as a special area of exception since that is the entire reason for what we call history in the first place: choice. And even here, of course, God's overall will for history, the completed whole as decreed in eternity past, is being perfectly carried out in every respect, with even angelic and human error and defiance only proving His character and redounding to His glory. This is essentially how I see Luke 19:40, i.e., you cannot thwart the plan and purpose of God in any way, no matter how trivial. All that He has ordained is coming to pass, a fact that for believers is stuff of incredible peace and comfort. Hope this helps!

Love,
Madeline

[Guest Guest]

Up until now I always thought a "Fiat" was a car! I guess I am going to have to think about this one for awhile.
.

This was my first thought. My dad had one and it rusted out after one year.

[IM4given]

Actually, the Bible does make disctinctions between sins - not like the Catholics who have mortal and venial sins. All sins deserve the penalty of death in God's eyes - however, there are certain sins that are an abomination, certain sins that bring a greater degree of punishment for those who reject the Saviour. Some of them are: causing others to stumble, leading someone (especially a child) astray, rejecting greater levels of spiritual light (ie. someone who never heard the Gospel is not going to be judged as greatly as someone who heard a clear presentation of the Gospel and understood it, but still rejected the Saviour).

Sin is sin. The scriptures define sin as transgression [bible]1 John 3:4[/bible], unrighteousness [bible]1 John 5:17[/bible] , omission of known duty [bible]James 4:17[/bible] , not from faith [bible]Romans 14:23[/bible] , and the thought of foolishness [bible]Proverbs 24:9[/bible]

I do not find any degrees of Sin or levels of Sin in the scriptures. I only see that there is one sin that is unforgivable, and it is named by Jesus Christ himself [bible]Matthew 12:21-32[/bible].

The consequenses of sin are blindness [bible]John 9:41[/bible], [bible]2 Corinthians 4:3,4[/bible], servitude [bible]John 8:34[/bible] , irreconcilable [bible]1 Timothy 3:1-7[/bible], and ultimately death [bible]Romans 6:23[/bible].

I do not see where there are any Big Sins or Little Sins. Sin is sin.

As Christians we have the Holy Spirit who helps us in our fight against sin: Use God's Word [bible]Psalm 119:11[/bible], Guard the tongue [bible]Psalm 39:1[/bible], Walk in the Spirit [bible]Romans 8:1-14[/bible], Avoid evil companions [bible]1 Timothy 5:22[/bible], confess to the Lord [bible]1 John 1:8,9[/bible] , Exercise love [bible]1 Peter 4:8[/bible] and Go to the Advocate [bible]1 John 2:1[/bible].

[orvals]

IM4given,

I believe you will find that the bible talks of degrees of punishment not degrees of sin (though it is implied).

First it is implied by Jesus that even us who are the sevants of God are in danger of more severe chastisement based on our understanding of scripture and our obedience to what we know and understand. Luke 12:46-49 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

Secondly Jesus himself infered an eternal punishment of degrees.
Matthew 11:20-22 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not: Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.

Here is the difficulty in treating all sins alike we come to the point of saying well sin is just sin and soon there is no distinction between say murder and a lie. From a practical standpoint while all sin is under the blood for those who repent and recieve Christ not all sins are equal. I am not speaking here of venial and menial sins I am speaking of of those sins that incurr the greatest damnation. For instance one who grows up hearing the gospel clearly and yet rejects the death and blood of Christ will recieve a much more severe eternal punishment than one who had only the stars and nature to preach to him. Hebrews 10:29ff

Just as honoring thy mother and father has a blessings tied to it so mistreating your wife has a penalty tied to it. I believe a thorough investigation will reveal more than these few I have mentioned.

Now then am I willing to debate this topic? No, there is not reason too.

Blessings to you.

Orvals

[IM4given]

Are there different degrees of hell then too? I can't imagine anything worse than being condemned to hell. I have heard some people even say that they are going to go to hell so that they can be with all of their friends! They have a thought of hell being like some sort of decadent night club. I think Hell is the absolute worst place one could ever be, and I don't think preachers ever preach about it enough.

[John81]

I don't think the Bible directly says there are degrees of punishment in hell but there have been those who believe the Bible might imply such.

Some argue that it wouldn't be just for God to give the same degree of punishment to a mass murderer as to someone who lived a "good life" but never accepted Christ.

Of course, Hell is for those who reject Christ; not as a punishment for sins committed; right? If that be the case, then regardless of how one lived their life on earth, if they rejected Christ they would all be deserving of the exact same punishment and there would be no need, or even justice, in a hell with degrees of punishment.