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Is foot-washing scriptural?


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I guess there is a big difference amongst what the hill people believe and practice and what the flatlanders believe. There even seems to be a different mindset. We were taught to trust God and the Bible and not to follow after the conventions of men.


That's an unjustified assumption. I do not "follow after the conventions of men." I am just not convinced of his (and possibly your) interpretation of John 13. I very much apply what I believe the passage is teaching: forgiveness and being a servant - and as Jesus said, I am blessed when I do so.
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I remember when I was a new Christian, way back in 1980. I did not know what the Bible said, and one of the first things I recieved was my own copy of the King James Bible - which I have used ever since. I did not learn and practice everything all at once. I had a LOT to learn about walking in Christ's footsteps, but walk in them I have done. I admit I have tripped and stumbled along the way, and there have even been a few times when Jesus had to carry me, because i was to weak and too weary to follow him on my own.

We learn and we grow and we develop our spiritual maturity in God's own time, through reading and practicing the scriptures. I did not become convicted of dresses only until just few short years ago. I did not become convicted of long hair on women until just about 2 years ago.

Now I am feeling convicted of this footwashing practice. I can read it some more, I can study and pray about it some more, and listen to what the spirit is leading me towards.

Perhaps you are not in the same level of growth and development as a Christian that I am. Maybe others are not either. However, when we feel conviction, do we just let it roll off our backs like water off a duck's feathers? Isn't that quenching the spirit? If I quench the spirit every time I feel convicted of something that God is trying to show me about my life, will I ever grow as a Christian?

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Flatlanders seem to go more by what their neighbors are doing and what is socially acceptable to their congregations, than by what the Holy Spirit may be teaching them about scriptural aspects of certain things.


I think this is an unfair assumption as well.

Just because our church does not "practice footwashing" does not mean we are trying to be socially acceptable. If we were trying to do THAT, our church would be three times the size it is now at least. For example I'm probably one of the only pastors wives in the entire area who does not wear pants to work in the yard, etc. If we were trying to be socially acceptable, I'd start wearing the cute capris and stuff all the other ladies wear.

We do not practice footwashing because we don't see it as commanded in Scripture. Period. I believe we are Holy Ghost led as well.

Perhaps you are not in the same level of growth and development as a Christian that I am. Maybe others are not either. However, when we feel conviction, do we just let it roll off our backs like water off a duck's feathers? Isn't that quenching the spirit? If I quench the spirit every time I feel convicted of something that God is trying to show me about my life, will I ever grow as a Christian?


Huh? Because we don't wash feet in church? :puzzled:
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I think this is an unfair assumption as well.

Just because our church does not "practice footwashing" does not mean we are trying to be socially acceptable. If we were trying to do THAT, our church would be three times the size it is now at least. For example I'm probably one of the only pastors wives in the entire area who does not wear pants to work in the yard, etc. If we were trying to be socially acceptable, I'd start wearing the cute capris and stuff all the other ladies wear.

We do not practice footwashing because we don't see it as commanded in Scripture. Period. I believe we are Holy Ghost led as well.



Huh? Because we don't wash feet in church? :puzzled:



No that is not what I meant at all.

What I meant was that we all have our Christian walk to undertake yes?

Each of us is in different levels of spiritual growth yes?

All I meant is that God deals with each individual differently and individually in a personal way.

Does that clarify what I mean better? I did not mean to say that people who practicing footwashing are better Christians than those who don't because they aren't. God is just dealing with them in a different way than with others it would seem.

There are no Christians who are deemed "better or worse" or "holier than thou" than any others - we are all sinners saved by the grace of God.
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What I see in this thread is two people hyperfocussing on John 13, without getting the rest of the context of the Bible in their understanding of that issue. Jesus was referring to the OT levitical laws about the priests washing their feet before ministering before the Lord. He showed that it needed to be done before we could fellowship with the Lord - needed to be done on an individual basis, as the OT taught.

Exodus 30:18-21 Thou shalt also make a laver of brass, and his foot also of brass, to wash withal: and thou shalt put it between the tabernacle of the congregation and the altar, and thou shalt put water therein. For Aaron and his sons shall wash their hands and their feet thereat: When they go into the tabernacle of the congregation, they shall wash with water, that they die not; or when they come near to the altar to minister, to burn offering made by fire unto the LORD: So they shall wash their hands and their feet, that they die not: and it shall be a statute for ever to them, even to him and to his seed throughout their generations.

Exodus 38:8 And he made the laver of brass, and the foot of it of brass, of the lookingglasses of the women assembling, which assembled at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

Exodus 40:30-32 And he set the laver between the tent of the congregation and the altar, and put water there, to wash withal. And Moses and Aaron and his sons washed their hands and their feet thereat: When they went into the tent of the congregation, and when they came near unto the altar, they washed; as the LORD commanded Moses.

James 1:23-25 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Ephesians 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

John 13:5-10 After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded. Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet? Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter. Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.

If all Jesus was dealing with was physical footwashing, then He wouldn't have needed to explain it to them:

John 13:12-17 So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you? Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am. If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him. If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.

He was dealing with the forgiveness and cleansing of sin that was needed to fellowship with Him, and that was so necessary before we ministered before Him and served others.

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In an earlier post I mentioned that my MIL's church practices footwashing, and she thinks we are in sin because we do not. My husband prayed that God would show him whether or not this was a command...and He did not. My husband was open to conviction by the Holy Spirit if this is what He wanted, but the Spirit did not convict.

We believe that Jesus did this as an example for us to be humble, to be a servant to our fellow man, etc. It is not wrong to do, but it is also not necessary to do.

The church where my MIL attends may practice footwashing, but they are VERY wrong on many teachings of the Bible - eternal security, separation from the world, faithfulness to God's house, and so forth. And yet churches that don't practice something that was admitted earlier is not an ordinance are in sin.

If the church you attend practices literal footwashing, that is wonderful, but I do believe you err when you feel that it is a spiritual accomplishment others haven't reached!

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From what I've read and studied, I don't believe the actual act of foot-washing is something we are commanded to do (I've explained this elsewhere in this thread so no need to repeat it all here).

However, in regards to what Janet is saying about personal conviction, I do believe if a person believes the Lord is convicting them to do (or to abstain) from something, then that is what that person should do.

Also, as Janet rightly pointed out, we are all at different levels, or stages, of maturity in our Christian walk. Do all here agree the Bible commands women to have long hair? Do all here agree with how long a womans hair must be to be considered long? What about dresses and pants for women? What about what is and isn't acceptable for a couple to do prior to marriage?

I mentioned those issues because from experience here I know that not all agree what the Bible says on those issues. Even those who are in somewhat agreement have different perspectives on how to live according to what they believe the Word says in these areas. Often as not, this is due to the varying degrees of maturity in the Lord.

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Hi again Ben!

Rom 16:16 Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you.
1Cr 16:20 All the brethren greet you. Greet ye one another with an holy kiss.
2Cr 13:12 Greet one another with an holy kiss.
1Th 5:26 Greet all the brethren with an holy kiss.
1Pe 5:14 Greet ye one another with a kiss of charity. Peace [be] with you all that are in Christ Jesus. Amen.

The context of several of the above verses imply other churches and believers. However, I am not saying you specifically need to practice this OUTSIDE of you local assembly, there is clarity and the "command mood" is here for the local assembly. Where the churches at Rome, Corinth, Thessolinica, and Babylon only to do this?


It was addressed the believers at Rome, however I never meant to suggest this was merely a Roman custom. Of course other churches did it - in the 1st century A.D. But, obviously, no one is suggesting that this "holy kiss" is a mandatory thing for us today. That certainly can't be derived from any of these passages. I cannot understand what there is in any of these "kissing" passages that would bring a reasonable person reading them in any language to assume from them that there is a "mandate" that we greet each other with a kiss. It's just not there. Paul tells the Romans to "greet Rufus". By the logic we are being asked to accept, we all need to greet Rufus. When scripture provides a mandate, it usually does so in general terms. Secondly, this is a greeting we are talking about. When I say to you "have a good day", that is quite different from a old Platoon Sergeant yelling in your ear "drop and give me 50!". The latter is a command; the former is a cultural nicety. The "holy kiss" is not something we are being commanded to do as a Church. These greetings were requests, and they were to particular people who are no longer alive. Given all of the sexual impropriety with which our society is awash, and given, as I said, the fact that touching and kissing has more profoundly sexual connotations in our society than it did in the more tactile ancient Mediterranean world, I think an effort to revive this custom would be a very big mistake (with no positive upside whatsoever). This is the last thing we need to be doing, but to each their own and I certainly won't condemn anyone for practicing it. I am ready to do whatever the Lord wants or commands me to do. I don't see the representation of this custom in these verses as in any way applicable to us today in respect to the "kiss". Greeting one another is fine. That can be done without physical contact, and certainly without kissing. I'm not condemning the practice outright. But I would balk at it myself, would discourage it in the church I attend, and I would resist mightily an attempt to try and make it mandatory by suggesting it's some sort of biblical mandate (which it most certainly is not since all the believers mentioned here went to be with the Lord thousands of years ago). Hope we can at least agree on this! :smile

Love,
Madeline
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As I was researching something else, I ran across a website about Primitive Baptists. It had a Frequently asked Q & A about Primitive Baptists. My question is, is the practice of foot-washing scriptural and if so why don't IFBs practice foot washing - or maybe your church does practice it? I have never been in a church that could be called "foot-washing baptists."

John explains that, at the end of the Last Supper, the Lord began to wash the feet of the disciples. After performing this great act of humility, the Lord said, If I then, your Lord and master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done unto you (Jn 13:14-15). Primitive Baptists understand that this commandment is to be followed in literal detail as well as in spirit. Many will dismiss these actions of Jesus as being no more than symbolic gestures; however, these same persons understand the last supper to be a literal example. We fail to see the consistency in this. If we are to take one as a symbolic gesture, we must take the other as being such also. Conversely, if the Lord intended literal observance of the last supper, then literal observance must have been intended for feet washing as well. The scriptures leave no doubt that the last supper is to be literally observed (I Cor 10:16-21, I Cor 11:23-30). I Tim 5:9-10 indicates that feet washing was practiced by the New Testament church. Neither this text nor the example of Jesus can be dismissed as a cultural phenomenon since texts describing the cultural practice of feet washing have individuals washing their own feet (Gen 43:24, Judges 19:21, Song 5:3). Unfortunately, such plain reasoning is easily obscured by human vanity, yet it was this very vanity that Jesus would have us destroy in the act of feet washing.

Question: Why do Primitive Baptists wash feet during communion?










Primitive Baptists aren't the only group which practices foot washing as an ordinance--I believe that the Church of God also does--along with "speaking in tongues" as they wash each other's feet.

I don't believe that Jesus commanded us to practice foot washing as an ordinance. I believe that in the act of footwashing, the lesson Jesus was teaching was symbolic of our daily walk after we are cleansed by His blood. Our "feet" symbolize our walk and they (our feet) need daily cleansing, or washing from walking in this sinful world. 1 John 1:9 would be applicable here. Footwashing is Scriptural, but I believe it was symbolic of our daily walk with Christ in this sinful world--but not an ordinance commanded by the Lord Jesus Christ.

Just some thoughts here.
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Madeline said:

By the logic we are being asked to accept, we all need to greet Rufus


There were obvious specific greetings in Pauls letters, i.e., "greet Rufus," and general instructions regarding Christian greeting, i.e., "Greet all the brethren with an holy kiss." Who is "all the brethren," just those in a local church or all the brethren?

Furthermore you said:
Of course other churches did it - in the 1st century A.D. But, obviously, no one is suggesting that this "holy kiss" is a mandatory thing for us today.


Again I appeal to the testimony of, not only the early church, but gospel preaching churches that exist in our day that obey in this area. What do you do with the churches that practice it today? You are judging scripture by contemporary society at large which is corrupt and defiled by sin. I do not and will not allow this or I am no better, nor you, than any liberal modernist theologian justifying situational ethics.

Madeline, YOUR cultural view may be skewed by sexuality and immorality, not mine especially in regard to complying with scripture. Many if not most, have filters on their spiritual eyes and interpret scripture in light on contemporary culture to extremes that sometimes nullify valid instruction in the Bible.

I guess the reason many Christians cannot be involved with a "holy" kiss is, quite frankly, because they are not holy. We live in a day when the church is awash in carnality and holiness has be relegated to a strictly internal quality and fashion and flesh have ruled the day...in the church.
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Linda,
No one denies the symbolism, I just have a hard time getting around the clear words of Jesus, he said, do it. He said do it, why would we want to explain his instructions away? I know the sybolism, and for those who have stated it again, no, no, and no, no one here thinks it is an ordinance.

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Madeline said:


There were obvious specific greetings in Pauls letters, i.e., "greet Rufus," and general instructions regarding Christian greeting, i.e., "Greet all the brethren with an holy kiss." Who is "all the brethren," just those in a local church or all the brethren?

Furthermore you said:


Again I appeal to the testimony of, not only the early church, but gospel preaching churches that exist in our day that obey in this area. What do you do with the churches that practice it today? You are judging scripture by contemporary society at large which is corrupt and defiled by sin. I do not and will not allow this or I am no better, nor you, than any liberal modernist theologian justifying situational ethics.

Madeline, YOUR cultural view may be skewed by sexuality and immorality, not mine especially in regard to complying with scripture. Many if not most, have filters on their spiritual eyes and interpret scripture in light on contemporary culture to extremes that sometimes nullify valid instruction in the Bible.

I guess the reason many Christians cannot be involved with a "holy" kiss is, quite frankly, because they are not holy. We live in a day when the church is awash in carnality and holiness has be relegated to a strictly internal quality and fashion and flesh have ruled the day...in the church.


What a shame Ben...that was uncalled for. Conjectural statements such as that isn't holy, but rather holier than thou. Greeting one another with a holy kiss was simply the custom of the day, this was an expression of mutual affection and friendship such as a handshake of today. I think it may be time to bow out of this discussion....we'll just have to see.

Love,
Madeline
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I just don't understand the emphasis on kissing or washing feet. Should we wear robes too? (Which you know I'm all for modest apparel) When we do Bible reading we HAVE to divine culture from command. Paul says to take a little wine (grape juice) for the stomach...so does that mean we should go around drinking grape juice for heartburn just because the Bible said it? The holy kiss was an end salutation to his letters. Just like we would say "Give Aunt Bertha a hug" or "Give Grandma my love" or "Give Uncle Joe a hearty handshake." It doesn't mean that the next fifteen generations are required to do this. Again footwashing was also a cultural thing, because feet were dusty after walking everywhere. To me it would equate to giving a guest the nicest chair to sit down and offering him an icy drink.

I agree with Jerry above, that Jesus was teaching servitude using an example, not giving a specific duty. There are many times in the Bible Jesus used object lessons, IMO this is another one of those times. Jesus used things easily understood by the men of the day in order to teach values.

For instance Jesus said to Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's. Does that mean since we don't serve a Caesar that we don't have to pay taxes? Or that we have to mail our taxes to Rome? No, it was an object lesson to teach obedience to government.

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I think I would like to study a bit more about Primitive Baptists and find out exactly what they do believe in and why? Are they even more "fundamental" than Fundamentalist Baptists? I do not think we all ought to rush out and buy foot tubs for our churches, but it is interesting to learn what others practice and how those practices come to be.

I don't think I would be involved in any church that speaks in tongues - whether they are washing feet or not - or any other beliefs/behaviors that are not scriptural. However, if by some chance I were to find myself sitting in a Primitive Baptist congregation, I want to educate myself regarding how they worship and what they believe in.

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IM4G - this link is to the Midland Confession of 1655 - one basis for the beleifs of Primitive Baptists.

http://www.pb.org/articles/mcfaith.html

The London Confession of 1689 is also part of their heritage:

http://www.pb.org/articles/lcf1689.txt

And the Waldenses Confessions of 1120 and 1544

http://www.pb.org/articles/walden.html

Some frequently asked questions about Primitives Baptists:

http://primitivebaptist.info/mambo//con ... r_Baptists

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