Bankruptcy and the Christian

[Anon]

No, he said it is only an option if the Christian still tries to pay back the debt. He only advocated the kind of bankruptcy that lets you get manageable payments.

[Pastorj]

I stand corrected. I reread the article and you are right.

[Madeline]

Clearly, it is better not to be in debt in the first place. Who would argue with that? But are we to say that is it wrong to take out student loans? We are wrong to have a credit card? We are wrong to finance a house over time and should only consider buying a home if we have all the money in a lump up front? Even if we do all these things, that doesn't mean we wouldn't possibly find ourselves in debt. The way our society and government are organized, if a person owns anything at all, it will have expenses attached to it, and it will have taxes attached to it. People who have never technically borrowed a nickel in their lives still occasionally lose their homes, cars, other property when they lose their jobs and find themselves unable to pay the electric bill, the water bill, the gas bill, the phone bill, the insurance bill, and the various tax bills that always accrue. Are we to say that such a thing could never happen to a believer? If so, then we need to look to the book of Job, for example. Unless we are living as hobos, in this society even without borrowing money ever we can still find ourselves in debt. We may not owe a nickel, but then we get sick and without insurance, or in cases where the insurance won't cover our specific condition or won't cover everything that is done for us (and both of these situations are increasingly more common with the current state of our health-care system), we find ourselves owing more money than we can ever pay back, especially if we have lost our livelihoods as a result of the illness.

Clearly, there will be times when a Christian finds him/herself in dire need with no way out. I don't suggest or recommend bankruptcy as a solution, especially in instances where it may well be the case that there is no relief even in bankruptcy since the law, I believe, now holds people responsible for medical bills even after bankruptcy in most instances. But I do not discount the possibility that there may be some instances where bankruptcy may be the only course left as stated in the article posted by Kitagrl.

But as to the issue of necessary vs. unnecessary debt, I do not find this distinction in the Bible. For one thing, I think it would be a very difficult distinction to maintain in any case, since, as I have said, what one might consider unnecessary for another as they sit comfortably in a La-z-boy might seem necessary to someone else, and they might be much more stingy with "necessities" if it were up to them to evaluate. It is hard to survive in even a marginal way in our high-tech modern society without some basic things: home, car, clothes, and all the odds and end that make a person presentable to have a chance in a job interview, for instance. Clearly there are ways to be economical, but as I describe above, it is very easy in this expensive society to fall through the crack if you miss a beat.

Now let's say if a person has never taken out a credit card, always buys cars and homes with cash only, has never borrowed money for any purpose, lives an extremely frugal life, and uses their excess income to help others who have financial troubles rather than spending it on needless luxuries like televisions, barbecue grills, boats, vacations, entertainment, etc., then they may have a consistent basis from which to preach that bankruptcy is never justified under any circumstances whatsoever. If this is not the case - and, honestly, even if it is - it should be admitted that sometimes despite our best efforts at stewardship we may find ourselves under the gun financially (i.e., even if we follow the above ideal, as demonstrated, we can still lose our shirt). This may come through testing. Or it may be that we have made some mistakes, financial mistakes. Or it may just be that, given the nature of our society and economy, we like almost all of our fellow citizens are "working without a net", meaning, if we get sick or if we lose our jobs, chances are good that things will fall apart for us financially. I think it is very imprudent to say this will never happen to a true Christian, or to say that in no case will God's solution involve the use of bankruptcy. I would certainly hope a sister or brother would not have to go this route. I would certainly counsel trying every other avenue first. I would certainly agree that it is honorable and laudable to work it off rather than seeking court help. And I certainly would never sell the Lord and His ability to provide short. But I also recognise that sometimes, either by our own compounding of mistakes, or from circumstances beyond our control, we may be left with little alternative, short of a miraculous deliverance (which I most certainly do not rule out).

I hate going to the doctor. I look for every other avenue first. It may be when I am sick that it is a result of poor maintenance on my part so that I am culpable for the condition I have. But if things come to such a pass that I am forced to go to the doctor, I do not see this as a lack of faith. I see this as making use of the particular means that God has provided for me in my trouble. There is a point at which taking advantage of outside means can indeed be an indication of insufficient faith. There is also a point at which failing to take advantage of outside means may be incredibly arrogant, because it amounts to dictating to God the manner in which He must solve our problem (when in fact He has already provided a solution which we dislike). In all issues of application where the Bible does not give a direct answer, deciding where that line is to be drawn must be the province of the individual Christian, for it requires personal spiritual growth and maturity, careful attention to scripture, and the help of the Holy Spirit, and intimate acquaintance with the situation (including what is really in the person's heart). But deciding such issues once and for all for other Christians by being dogmatic about an arbitrary standard which is not in the Bible is a mistake in my view. Now I'm through with this discussion.

Love,
Madeline

[Danny Carlton]

Danny,

I have given a basic Biblical basis for not declaring bankruptcy. As stated, I believe it puts a bad testimony on our Great God that he cannot provide for us.

Sorry, but that's a logically weak argument. It's subjective, in that it is based on the perception of whoever is interpriting whether our actions are testimony for or against something. I have a brother-in-law that belongs to a religion that teaches that medical care is sinful in that Christians should trust God to heal them. He uses the same argument as you. How many Christians were murdered for their faith in the first century? Didn't that give testimony that God didn't provide for them?

There are basically two types of debt.
1. Unavoidable debt because of circumstances beyond our control (Health, loss of Job, etc)
2. Avoidable debt due to irresponsible spending.

Scripture is clear that we are to owe no man anything. That if we are in debt we are enslaved to the person we are in debt to. We need to understand that we are responsible as individuals for the debt that we create. If I go buy a car, I am obligated to pay for it. Simple principle. The problem with bankruptcy is that we buy that car and then say, "I don't have to pay for it." Whether our debts are avoidable or unavoidable, we have an obligation to pay off our debts unless the creditor forgives those debts. This might mean selling everything we have to pay off the debt. This may mean eating PB&J twice a day to pay off our debts. The debts though are our responsibility.

Not really. Some creditors simply don't work that way. They want customers who charge lots, let a lot ride and are late on payments every so often so they can be charged late fees. Credit Card companies have a term for people who pay their credit cards off every month--Dead Beats. If you fall on hard times and can't keep up the payments, they aren't interested in working with you. As a right-off they can get 20-30% of the value of the debt to immediately put back in the system earning interest and late fees. A slow trickle of payments means that money is not making them money, and they don't want that.

While there are people who live well beyond their means, there are also some who live well beneath what many consider a reasonable minimal. Ted Kulongoski, the governor of Oregon, a few months ago did a publicity stunt where he attempted to live of the average Food Stamp alotment for one week. The problem was he shopped at one of the most expensive grocery stores in Salem, Oregon. Naturally he claimed the $21 a week per person Food Stamp allowance was too low. Except he ignored the fact that Food Stamps are called "assistance". No one is expected to use that alone for their food. But even then, we just wen shopping a few hours ago for the week. We spent just under $75 to feed all six of us for a week. That's $12.50 a person. Does it sound like we're living high on the hog?

The wonderful thing about being a Christian is that we have a Heavenly Father who loves us. Romans tells us that "All things work together for Good". Philippians tells us that God will provide for all our needs. Matt 6 tells us that God will provide for our needs because we are more important to him than the birds or the flowers. Scripture says to "cast all of our cares upon him' date=' for he careth for you". We are to take our burdens to him. There are numerous examples in the Bible of God providing for an individuals needs. Elijah was fed by ravens. He was then fed by a widow woman who was about to eat her last meal and then die. God provided for not only the preacher, but the woman who by faith gave her last meal away. We serve a great God who is in control of everything. Declaring Bankruptcy says that God can't handle your problems, so let's go to the courts and let them erase your debt.[/quote']

I need to get to church Sunday morning so instead of trusting a worldly car, I'll just wait outside for God to send a fiery chariot to take me there.

God expects us to use our brains. When court notices come, bills come, hungry bellies need food and there simply is no money to handle the problem, your preaching sounds very hollow and meaningless, not to mention heartless.

[Pastorj]

I am locking this thread as it is not glorifying to God.