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Warning - a long discourse and question regarding Hell


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Daniel 12:2
'And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.'

Daniel here was being shown what was going to happen during the end times. In chapter 12 he is told of the Great Tribulation, which is the last 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation period. After that time is over those who are dead are going to be raised up to be judged. Some will be raised to everlasting life while others to everlasting contempt.

Isaiah 66:24
'And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.'

Mark 9:44, 46, & 48 all repeat the part of this verse about the worm not dying and the fire not being quenched. If we use proper grammar then we will notice that the pronoun "their" refers back to those men that have transgressed against the Lord. It says that their worm shall not die neither shall their fire be quenched.

Also let's look at the grammar concerning Revelation 20:14 & Revelation 21:8.

Revelation 20:14
'And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 21:8
'But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

If we look at the grammar in these verses then we see that the second death is the very act of being thrown into the lake of fire.

This is just what little I could find in a short time. I hope it helps.

In Christ,
PreacherE

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First, as you rightly point out, we must look at the grammar. The word for die in the verses in Matthew that you cite is teleutao? not thanatos as is used in REV. In fact as one continues to read REV we find in REV 21:4 that death (thanatos) no longer exists. As stated in REV 20:14 death and hell were cast into the lake of fire for the second death. Hence death and hell no longer exists after that time. Also, I can see no reason to believe that being cast into the lake of fire is the second death per say because of REV 20:10. The Bible clearly differentiates between what happens to them and what happens to hell and death. REV 20:10 says that group (satan and his) will burn forever. REV 20:14 says that group (hell and death) will suffer the second death and REV 21:4 shows that death no longer exists. The lake of fire is eternal because that is where satan is. Hell and death are burned up and no longer exist. Again I not only do not see scripture saying hell is eternal but that it will in fact cease to exist after the second death.
Second, if as you posit hell is eternal, where in Scripture do you find the Justness of our God in judging the unbelievers by the works (Rev 20:12 and REV 20:13) and giving them the same punishment - eternal burning.

Wayne
PS - Regarding the first verse from Daniel - it says their shame and contempt are eternal - not them. By way of analogy, Hilter will always be held in shame and contempt but he is dead.
PSS - Thank you for taking the time and effort to address this.

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Madeline, you state:
"The bible often speaks of "death" as separation between 2 things (Rom 6:2,11,23; 7:4,8,9,11; 8:35; Gal. 2:19; Eph 2:1,5)."
The following is a break down of the verses you selected:
ROM 6:2 uses apothnesko
ROM 6:11 uses nekros
ROM 6:23 says thantos and it says it is the wage of sin
ROM 7:4 uses nekros
ROM 7:8 uses nekros
ROM 7:9 uses apothnesko
ROM 7:11 uses apokteino
ROM 8:35 doesn't contain any word about death
GAL 2:19 uses apothnesko
EPH 2:1 uses nekros
EPH 2:5 uses nekros

Every time the second death is mentioned it is thanatos. As you can see the only verse you selectd for comparison that is appropriate is ROM 6:23 which is in agreement with my statement that the second death is real.

On what do you base the statement that the second death is not actually death. The word used is thanatos - death. It would indicate to me that the first death is of the body - the second death is of the soul. If as you say all unbelievers will burn forever then judging them according to their works would be moot and saying they suffer a second death moot as well? The Bible explicitly states satan and his followers will be burned forever - they will not suffer the second death. It also explicitly states that the saved will never suffer the second death. Only those from hell are judged according to their works and then cast with hell into the lake of fire to suffer the second death.
Our God is a just God and I don't believe he would hand out the same punshment for everyone. Do you?

Wayne

PS - I found it interesting that the term thanatism is used to decribe the belief that the soul dies with the body.


Understanding some Greek or even some English grammar would be helpful here to avoid such pitfalls. The word nekros means "dead" - it is an adjective; the word apothnesko means "die" - it is a verb; the word thanatos is the only word here meaning "death" - it is a noun. To base an argument on different vocabulary may have some merit, depending upon how it is done, but failing to see that these are all different parts of speech makes the distinctions drawn completely invalid.

Secondly, the word used in Revelation 20 for death is (effectively by the time of writing of the NT especially) the only word for death: thanatos. And it is always, in the NT, the word used for death (used nearly 100 times in the NT).

Thirdly, death is used in a variety of ways in the NT. All of them are real. Death is always "real", whether it is spiritual death, physical death, or eternal death. I suppose your argument is that since physical death is "real" in the sense of that the corpse is lifeless, therefore eternal death ought to resemble that state. This ignores the fact that "lifelessness" from God's perspective is quite different from what secular human viewpoint would think. Unbelievers are "dead" to God even though they have breath in their physical bodies. Leaving this aside, however, beyond all argument an unbeliever is "dead" even by this person's definition, when they die physically. And yet, "dead" as they are, "really dead" by this definition, yet in this "dead" state they still are conscious in Torments (cf. the story of Lazarus and the rich man), and they will still be able to appear before the Lord at the last judgment to be judged according to their deeds. Now if while they are really and truly physically dead they even now experience torments, and on that last day will be able to see and hear the Lord and be judged for their lives to be shown how their deeds were not sufficient for salvation absent faith in Christ, on what basis can we say that when they are cast into the lake of fire they will not "really" be experiencing the second death, even though they are likewise conscious then? In fact, if they were annihilated when cast into the lake of fire, this wouldn't be much of a punishment, since they would be unaware of any further suffering, having been annihilated. The notion of oblivion has in fact been a (false) comfort to many unbelievers in the history of the world often via a variety of philosophies and false religions. But it is a myth. Dying after rejecting Jesus, whether actively or passively, is a horrible thing to contemplate, because there will be no "peace in the grave" for such individuals: rather, like the devil whose example they are following, they will have all eternity to contemplate the folly of their decision.

"For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. Isaiah 66:22-24 (cf. Matt.25:41; Mk.9:48; Rev.19:20; 20:10; 20:15; 21:8)

Love,
Madeline
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Understanding some Greek or even some English grammar would be helpful here to avoid such pitfalls. The word nekros means "dead" - it is an adjective; the word apothnesko means "die" - it is a verb; the word thanatos is the only word here meaning "death" - it is a noun. To base an argument on different vocabulary may have some merit, depending upon how it is done, but failing to see that these are all different parts of speech makes the distinctions drawn completely invalid.

Secondly, the word used in Revelation 20 for death is (effectively by the time of writing of the NT especially) the only word for death: thanatos. And it is always, in the NT, the word used for death (used nearly 100 times in the NT).

Thirdly, death is used in a variety of ways in the NT. All of them are real. Death is always "real", whether it is spiritual death, physical death, or eternal death. I suppose your argument is that since physical death is "real" in the sense of that the corpse is lifeless, therefore eternal death ought to resemble that state. This ignores the fact that "lifelessness" from God's perspective is quite different from what secular human viewpoint would think. Unbelievers are "dead" to God even though they have breath in their physical bodies. Leaving this aside, however, beyond all argument an unbeliever is "dead" even by this person's definition, when they die physically. And yet, "dead" as they are, "really dead" by this definition, yet in this "dead" state they still are conscious in Torments (cf. the story of Lazarus and the rich man), and they will still be able to appear before the Lord at the last judgment to be judged according to their deeds. Now if while they are really and truly physically dead they even now experience torments, and on that last day will be able to see and hear the Lord and be judged for their lives to be shown how their deeds were not sufficient for salvation absent faith in Christ, on what basis can we say that when they are cast into the lake of fire they will not "really" be experiencing the second death, even though they are likewise conscious then? In fact, if they were annihilated when cast into the lake of fire, this wouldn't be much of a punishment, since they would be unaware of any further suffering, having been annihilated. The notion of oblivion has in fact been a (false) comfort to many unbelievers in the history of the world often via a variety of philosophies and false religions. But it is a myth. Dying after rejecting Jesus, whether actively or passively, is a horrible thing to contemplate, because there will be no "peace in the grave" for such individuals: rather, like the devil whose example they are following, they will have all eternity to contemplate the folly of their decision.

"For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. Isaiah 66:22-24 (cf. Matt.25:41; Mk.9:48; Rev.19:20; 20:10; 20:15; 21:8)

Love,
Madeline


Great post Madeline! :thumb :amen:
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First - Nice dissertation on dead but it did not answer anything. Again, the Bible specifically states that satan and his will burn forever. It specifically states the unbeliever will be judged and then cast with hell and death into the lake of fire and suffer the second death. It specifically states death will no longer exist. Since they are judged first and then cast in they could burn for a day or week depending on the sentence based on their works. By your reading they all get the same punishment for different works. Perhaps you think for your whole being to burn for a week is trivial - I am sure at some point you have at least burned just a small part of a fingertip - think about it. We, as the saved, are offered eternal life, the unbeliever is not. Hell, like death, according to Scritpure will cease with the second death. Please show me Scritpure.

Second, you have not addressed the second question at all.

Wayne

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Just because hell and death may not exist anymore because they are cast into the Lake of Fire doesn't mean the souls of the lost will cease to exist.

There was another thread on here not too long ago dealing with the idea of degrees of punishment. If there are degrees of punishment, while all might suffer for eternity, they would not all suffer to the same extent.

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Again, with Scripture, show me the degrees. That is one of my points. It would be more logical to seem the "degree" being how long they burned until the second death.

Also, regarding Madeline's grammar lesson she is quite wrong. All of the following are translated as dead and yes I can give Scritpture - not opinion:

thne?sko?
thnay'-sko
A strengthened form of a simpler primary word ????? thano? (which is used for it only in certain tenses); to die (literally or figuratively): - be dead, die.

teleutao?
tel-yoo-tah'-o
From a presumed derivative of G5055; to finish life (by implication of G979), that is, expire (demise): - be dead, decease, die.

nekros
nek-ros'
From an apparently primary word ?????? nekus (a corpse); dead (literally or figuratively; also as noun): - dead.

apothne?sko?
ap-oth-nace'-ko
From G575 and G2348; to die off (literally or figuratively): - be dead, death, die, lie a-dying, be slain (X with).

Wayne

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thne?sko?
thnay'-sko
A strengthened form of a simpler primary word ????? thano? (which is used for it only in certain tenses); to die (literally or figuratively): - be dead, die.

teleutao?
tel-yoo-tah'-o
From a presumed derivative of G5055; to finish life (by implication of G979), that is, expire (demise): - be dead, decease, die.

nekros
nek-ros'
From an apparently primary word ?????? nekus (a corpse); dead (literally or figuratively; also as noun): - dead.

apothne?sko?
ap-oth-nace'-ko
From G575 and G2348; to die off (literally or figuratively): - be dead, death, die, lie a-dying, be slain (X with).


sarcrew, an adjective, verb, or a noun determines the context of "death" (e.g., "die, death, dead). You knew that, and I have really poor grammatical skills. :smile

Death is cast into the Lake of fire, i.e., death is destroyed (cf. Col 15:26). Both the saved and the unsaved will no longer be subject to death. However, the second death refers to separation from God. If you honestly do a study on how the word "death" is applied throughout scripture...you will find that the concept of death refers to a separation; not nonexistence. Here are some examples:

Genesis 35:17,18 - And it came to pass, when she was in hard labour, that the midwife said unto her, Fear not; thou shalt have this son also. And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.

James 2:26 - For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

I have to go to bed. :smile

Love,
Madeline
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IM4given gave me a thread where hell was discussed, and degrees, but there is a notable lack of any Scritpure. I do not mean to appear antagonstic on this but that is my whole issue - so much on this subject is based on what someone was raised or taught to believe instead of Scripture based. I hate to use the expression, but , I am "playing the devils advocate" because I need sound, Scriptural references to answer these questions for others. I know what I see in Scripture but because many nowadays see it different I want to know what Scriptures they base their view on.

Thank you all for the discourse. I don't see how we can go wrong if we are led to more time in the study of Scripture.

Wayne

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To lighten things a little. We laugh when we hear about Bill Clinton arguing about what "is" is. Hmmm - is death death?

The following excerpt is from another thread here at OB (underlining by me):

Hermeneutics (how to understand & interpret the Bible):

1. A reader should initially take everything in the Bible in its normal ("literal") sense, like any piece of explanatory informative literature. We should try to understand the writing in the very same way in which we honestly think the writer intended his original audience to take it.

2. Every verse should be taken in its immediate context. -- The nearby verses are usually more relevant to each other than verses further-away; also, verses (or word-usage) on a topic by the same human writer are often more closely related than verses (or word-usage) by a different human writer.

3. Clear, direct and explicit statements of scripture take precedence over unclear and implied ideas (e.g. theological "systems") which a reader might impose on the text. -- This basic perspective on how to properly interpret the Bible, is very much in accord with the statement: "When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense."

The responses so far have not followed the first two rules and tend to disregard the last. So let's try to follow these practices and see what we find. Can anyone find a verse which uses thanatos translated as death that does not mean literal death.

Please do not use:
teleutao? - which is translated as dead, die, deceased, died, dieth - never death
or
thne?sko? - which is only translated as dead - never death
or
nekros - which is only translated as dead - never death
or
apothne?sko? -which is translated as die, died, dead, dying, dieth, perished, slain and only once as death
Please DO use thanatos - which is translated 115 times as death, once as deaths, and twice as deadly

Please note thanatos is the only word the author of Revelation uses for death. For dead the author uses only nekros. Apothne?sko? the author uses for both die and died.

The Bible does indeed have themes but too much "doctrine" has been created by man and his traditions.

Wayne

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Whether you're playing the devils advocate - I think you're missing the point and making the topic of death more complicated than it really is, and how it is plainly described in scripture. Whether thanatos is translated 115 or 1,000 times as "death" (literal cessation) doesn't change the scriptural fact that the bible clearly teaches that upon "death," the body is separated from the soul....that's what happens upon death. Physical Death - separation of the body and soul, and spiritual death - Separation of man from God. If you would do a study like I proposed on the concept of death as described in the bible, then you would realise that death refers to separation. If you were to apply the principles of hermeneutics and CONTEXT (death is literal), you would come to the understanding that whenever death occurs, so does a separation of something to which it belongs, regardless of the Greek words used.

Love,
Madeline

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Madeline, I have done such studies and many more - probably while you were still in diapers. If you want to "preach" use Scripture. You need to study hermeneutics. I'll keep it simple for you - by your reasoning death is not death. Did Jesus die for us or just seperate? Read John 3:16. Does perish mean to live forever. Words can and often do mean just what they say.

Consider:

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. Hmm . . . does this just mean seperation???

And your "eternal" fire, hmm . . .
Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
2Pe 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an example unto those that after should live ungodly; hmm . . seems to me the example burns til it doesn't exist . . . if they are still burning let me know where they are - people have been trying to find them for a long time.

Please do not respond unless you are quoting Scritpure relevant to the topic. The bible uses a very clear set of words to describe eternity. That phrase is used extensively to describe God (about twenty times). It is also used in Revelations to describe the punishment of satan and his followers (three times) and once to describe us - the saved. This phrase is used over a dozen times in Revelation alone and it is never used regarding the unbelievers and/or hell. This is the same author, in the same book, we are discussing. If you don't know or can't figure out the Scripture I'll post it for you. While appreciate your participation in this discussion please remember I asked for Scripture - not your opinions without support, a grammar lesson, or your insults.

Wayne

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sarcrew, I will respond when I get off of work, since this is going to take a while (passages on eternal punishment [Dan. 12:2; Matt. 25:46...] the "biblical" concept of death, etc). ***Off-topic*** I don't think I was rude, but if I were then many apologies. I do however believe that your OP statement was totally uncalled for and arrogant. There are many others (including scholars) who have diligently studied the biblical concept of death long before you have, and understand that the biblical concept of "death" refers to an unnatural sepration of something to which it belongs. So the little snide remark of how you have you have done "so much" studies whilst I was still in diapers is neither conducive or relevant to this discussion - moot point.

Daniel 12:2 - And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Matthew 25:46 - And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The Hebrew word "olam" used twice in Daniel 12:2 is used to signify eternity, and so are the Greek words "aionios" used twice in Matthew 25:46.

If the punishment in Matt. 25:46 is not eternal, then neither is eternal life with God.

Love,
Madeline

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Madeline, thank you for the Scripture. I already addressed 12:2 in an earlier post. If you have a chance to scan back it will save the retyping.
Regarding Mark the punishment is indeed eternal - they cease to exist - never to rise again. Notice that the unbeliever is punished, where as Scripture says satan and his are tormented. As Jesus says in John 3:16 they (unbelievers) perish - apollumi - (Strong's - From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully ) This punishment, as you correctly state, is aionios. Aionios is the plural of aion - which means age. The punishment will last the ages - they are not going to rise again, and we - the saved - will be alive for ages. As I mentioned above, the Bible, especially in REV - which is the book and author under discussion, has a very clear wording sequence when describing eternity - age to age - aion to aion.
Since I haven't the benefit of your full response I will only add a little more - the author of REV also states that there will be no more death (REV21:4). If this author means, as you say, seperation from God, then it would mean that no one could still be alive in the lake of fire (which we know is not true because we know satan and his will burn forever). I believe he means just what he says - death is death. Either way this verse would refute anyone being alive in hell. I'll wait for your future comments to see how you address the other issues brought up in my last post.

Wayne

PS - Also, you still have not addressed the second part of the question, I would appreciate Scriptural input for that as well.

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