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Warning - a long discourse and question regarding Hell


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WARNING - It's a little long!
PART 1
I am sure many of you are aware that there are those who posit that either A) there is no "Hell" or B) everybody will be saved, or C) "Hell" is just death (or the grave), or finally D) they can not believe in "a God" that would condemn so many to eternal punishment.
I am not interested in "apologetics" for the sake of debate. I am interested in "apologetics" so I can better answer questions when dealing with either non believers or with a fellow maturing Christian (of which I too am hopefully growing).
Background: The term "hell" in the Bible (KJV) in the OT is translated from the word "sheol". It is translated as such 31 times. Sheol is also translated as grave 30 times. In the NT "hell" is translated from "geenna" 12 times, from "hades" 10 times (hades is once translated as grave) and from "tartaroo" once.
I would easily refute the first three (A,B, and C) above mentioned positions based on the following verses (a few among many):
Luke 12:5 "But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him." If hell did not exist, was just death or the grave, or everyone was going to be saved - Jesus would not warn us we could be cast there after being killed.
and
Rev 1:18 "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive forevermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death." If hell did not exist, was just death or the grave, or everyone was going to be saved - Jesus would not have specifically stated He had the keys to both hell and death.

PART 2 - Countering "D" mentioned above:
We know that hell already has occupants awaiting judgment: 2Pe 2:4
We know that all will be judged: Rev 20:12 and Rev 20:13
We know that Satan and his followers will burn forever in the lake of fire: Rev 20:10

The Bible states that those not saved will be cast into hell and that death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire and suffer the second death (Rev 20:14). The Bible goes on to say, ". . . shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Rev 21:8)

This indicates to me that we fall into one of three categories:
1. God will indeed eternally (for ever and ever) punish those who chose to go against Him. Note: They will live forever - and be punished forever.
2. Those who do not follow Him will suffer a terrible burning second death - the degree according to the judgment of their works. (Rev 20:12) Note: This punishment is "eternal" since they will cease to exist once they suffer the second death.
3. Those who are Christians, the saved, will live eternally and never taste the second death.

While I know number 1 and 3 are correct I have been unable to find a Biblical basis for the believe that everyone not saved will "Burn in hell forever". Number two, if I understand the concept of second death correctly this would refute "D" from above. Please understand I am not trying to make the Bible "fit" so as to counter an arguement. I am trying to base my testimony on Scripture and not on "tradition".

Any thoughts, feedback, etc. please let me know. While I consider myself a "maturing" Christian I highly value the Biblical wisdom of others that may be more "mature". Please cite the Scriptures - not commentaries. I seek not debate but the wisdom of those of you who may have Scriptural guidance to help me - for myself and for others.

Wayne

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This is the right place to ask those questions! As far as I know, this is the ONLY message board that even dares to mention the subject of "hell" in any type of intelligent discussion!

We had a thread that started out discussing Biblical Fiats and then drifted over into a really really good discussion about hell just over a month ago...

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=18143&hilit=+hell

I learned A LOT from that discussion BTW! :amen: :clap:

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I believe Rev 20 might be the answer to your question that you asked.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This is how we understand the scriptures to mean that those who do not follow Christ will go to hell. There is only one way and one way only to have your name written into the book of life, and that is through becoming a born-again blood-bought bible believing Christian, and no other way.

The Book of Life contains the names of the saved [bible]Philippians 4:3[/bible] and the deeds of the righteous [bible]Malachi 3:16-18[/bible].

See also [bible]Luke 10:20[/bible], [bible]Hebrews 12:23[/bible] and [bible]Daniel 7:10[/bible]

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I believe Rev 20 might be the answer to your question that you asked.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This is how we understand the scriptures to mean that those who do not follow Christ will go to hell. There is only one way and one way only to have your name written into the book of life, and that is through becoming a born-again blood-bought bible believing Christian, and no other way.

I whole heartedly agree with you about how we are saved.
Hell and the lake of fire are not the same thing since hell is cast into the lake of fire and those who are in hell suffer the second death. So the question remains - where is the Biblical basis for "burning in hell for eternity" since those in hell are cast into the lake of fire and suffer the second death. If they were to burn "for eternity" what then is the second death. As I cited in the first post the Bible clearly states that Satan and his followers will burn for eternity in the lake of fire whereas those in hell will suffer the second death after hell is cast into the lake of fire.
On other threads here on OB I have seen people discuss the "levels of hell" and consider "how hot it is" or "getting stripes "as to the level of punishment. I don't see it as "how hot" but as how long will that person burn before suffering the second death. We know that God is a just God. All unbelievers will indeed burn in hell, and hell will be cast into the lake of fire, and the unbelievers will suffer a second death. This indicates to me that, by way of example, that an unbeliever such as say Ghandi would burn quickly and die the second death and an unbeliever that was also a mass murderer would burn quite awhile before suffering the second death - according to how they were judged on their acts. Only statan and his followers will burn for eternity.

Note: Think of the pain of just a quick little burn. Imagine feeling that for an hour, a day, a week, etc -- now that is indeed enough to scare any intelligent person. Makes me shudder just to think about it!

Wayne

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I believe (and I could be wrong) that anyone who goes to hell will remain there for all eternity. It is not some vast crematorium where your soul just burns up - I think it is everlasting - your soul is eternally tormented by the flames. And yes, I believe the souls of Mahatma Ghandi and even Mother Teresa for that matter, are burning in hell right beside Adolph Hitler and Saddam Hussein, if they did not accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, and receive the gift of salvation before they died.

Matthew 25

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

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Thanks for the verse. I can see where some could view that as you do. However, note that in Matt 25:41 Jesus specifies that the everlasting fire is prepared for the devil and his angels - the fire in REV calls this the lake of fire. Here I totally agree, satan and his followers, and the lake of fire will burn forever - they do not suffer the second death. Again, please note that hell is cast into the lake of fire and those in hell suffer the second death. That second death is everlasting - they will never be resurrected again. But it makes no sense to say they those in hell burn forever if they suffer the second death - which they clearly do. How does one who believes those sent to hell live and burn forever explain the second death.

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I don't recall ever hearing about a "second death" - can you tell me what verses of scripture you are using for that? The Bible says that we only die once...

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

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Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Wayne

PS - thanks for talking with me about this. I guess maybe I posted it in the wrong section here on OB. I expected more feedback. Perhaps as you said earlier - it scares people - as it should.

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Revelation 20:14 - And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

The Lake of Fire is where all the wicked (Satan, demons, unbelievers, etc) will dwell for all of eternity, which is the 2nd death. The bible often speaks of "death" as separation between 2 things (Rom 6:2,11,23; 7:4,8,9,11; 8:35; Gal. 2:19; Eph 2:1,5). Death in those passages (Rev. 2:11, 20:6,14; 21:8) don't mean annihilation. Death here refers to spiritual death and eternal separation from God, which is everlasting punishment in the lake of fire. Hope that helps! :smile

Love,
Madeline

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Madeline, you state:
"The bible often speaks of "death" as separation between 2 things (Rom 6:2,11,23; 7:4,8,9,11; 8:35; Gal. 2:19; Eph 2:1,5)."
The following is a break down of the verses you selected:
ROM 6:2 uses apothnesko
ROM 6:11 uses nekros
ROM 6:23 says thantos and it says it is the wage of sin
ROM 7:4 uses nekros
ROM 7:8 uses nekros
ROM 7:9 uses apothnesko
ROM 7:11 uses apokteino
ROM 8:35 doesn't contain any word about death
GAL 2:19 uses apothnesko
EPH 2:1 uses nekros
EPH 2:5 uses nekros

Every time the second death is mentioned it is thanatos. As you can see the only verse you selectd for comparison that is appropriate is ROM 6:23 which is in agreement with my statement that the second death is real.

On what do you base the statement that the second death is not actually death. The word used is thanatos - death. It would indicate to me that the first death is of the body - the second death is of the soul. If as you say all unbelievers will burn forever then judging them according to their works would be moot and saying they suffer a second death moot as well? The Bible explicitly states satan and his followers will be burned forever - they will not suffer the second death. It also explicitly states that the saved will never suffer the second death. Only those from hell are judged according to their works and then cast with hell into the lake of fire to suffer the second death.
Our God is a just God and I don't believe he would hand out the same punshment for everyone. Do you?

Wayne

PS - I found it interesting that the term thanatism is used to decribe the belief that the soul dies with the body.

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I think I am going to sit back on the sidelines for awhile and give some of our resident theologians/preachers an opportunity to join in this discussion. The main thing that I know about Hell is that it is NOT place that I want to be!!! :amen:

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I guess it's a two fold question. In my original post I listed some of the comments some make concerning hell. The position listed as (D) is essentially that they can not believe in "a God" that would be so unjust as to punish, for example, Adolph Hitler the same as Ghandi. I refute this by pointing out that He doesn't. To which many unbelievers and believers alike say that all unbelievers will burn in hell forever. I see no Biblical proof for that asertion. As I have stated I do see proof that satan and his followers (his angels, adherents, and those who recieve the mark) will burn forever. I see only proof that other unbelievers will be judged according to their works and then suffer a second death after hell is cast into the lake of fire and they have had their "part". I have asked fo others Biblical wisdom on this issue.

Wayne

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