Baptist Briders.

[Calvary]

I don't need or care to prove it to you - many others have written extensively on this subject. I am just challenging your statement - just because you say it doesn't make it right.

Typical.

Jerry, you should be able to back up your dogmatism. I do have their writings, that's why I said what I said. I own the Key of Truth, written in the "dark ages" as you put it. I have the prayer books of Paulicans, Dontatist. I don't state stuff off the cuff. I don't say prove it to satisfy me. I say it to see if you're a ready and willing student, which I should have known you are not.

Jerry you have always impressed me as a bully and a bluff. You read Cloud and that settles it for you.

Nope, you don't have to beleive me because i say it's so. But should I believe you because you haven't even tried to confirm your beliefs outside of a Cloud data base?

So, there you have it. Jerry said so, it's so. No quote, no homework, no effort. Must be nice to be your own final authority.

Paulicans? Yea right. http://books.google.com/books?id=f-5EE0 ... esult&cd=1

Waldenses? Sure brother. http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/num3.htm

Donatist? Whatever you say beloved. http://www.carm.org/heresy/donatism.htm

Ya know Jerry, you might actually try thining before you speak once in a while.

Go back to that link on the Waldenses and try to get that book by a Baptist who slams the false teaching that there has "always been a Baptist distinctive", with actual historic quotes and research, something you seem to have no time for when it goes agaistn your little pre packaged ideas. That book by the way is available.

I'll pass on you're reply as it will be filled with more self serving, casuticism and indifference to a little thing called truth.

Waldenses are not old timey Baptist. They were ascetic, poverty vows, monastic and only slightly removed from Catholics.

That's just what the history will prove.

God bless,

Calvary

Charity rejoices in the truth.

[Jerry]

Grow up, Calvary. What's the difference - you state something and want us to believe it... :roll I at least stated WHERE you could find this info available. Here are the website links for some of what I referred to:

http://www.wayoflife.org/ There is a link near the bottom of this page that goes to the section of his site dealing with Baptist and Anabaptist history - but there is also a search bar at the top where you can type some of these names in. (Sorry for not providing a direct link to that part, but his site seems unavailable right now.)

http://www.biblebelievers.com/Grady/Fin ... ority.html

Trail of Blood - book can be found online at various sites

Cloud is not my only source read on this subject - quit making assumptions just because you are apparently rabidly anti-Cloud. I refer to him because of his vast amount of articles and each of finding resources online. My theology is not based on Cloud - I read Cloud because he takes the same positions I do on doctrine - yes, he does fine tune some of my positions. I haven't written books and thousands of articles on all those subjects, so I certainly can't link to mine - but if he does have an excellent article or book on a certain theme, I am not going to hesitate to refer to it or link to it.

[Guest Guest]

"James 3:10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be."

Remember We have a Christian testimony to uphold guys, insults aren't called for. :Green

[John81]

"James 3:10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be."

Remember We have a Christian testimony to uphold guys, insults aren't called for. :Green

:amen:

[Calvary]

Duly noted and apologies oferred.

God bless,

Calvary

[John81]

Duly noted and apologies oferred.

God bless,

Calvary

Thank you Calvary! :thumb

[sarcrew]

This is why I am so glad I found you guys. We can share "intense" discussions, and if it gets "too intense" we have fellow brothers and sisters to gives us a gentle nudge! I'll admit sometimes I will speak to fast to feel the nudge from inside.


Wayne

[JerryNumbers]

All you have to do is do a search on various websites, such as Way Of Life, and you will see. I don't need or care to prove it to you - many others have written extensively on this subject. I am just challenging your statement - just because you say it doesn't make it right.

Anyone on these boards can do an online search on sound Baptist sites (and even KJVonly sites), and see where these groups stood and what they believed. I believe the evidence proves that for the most part, these groups believed the Baptist Disctinctives. Trail of Blood is one source. I think Final Authority and Rome And The Bible mentions some of these groups, and show how they were part of the remnant of true believers - and especially how the Waldensians were used to preserve our Bible, and the part they played in the lives of the reformers and leading to the KJV. As far as quoting some of their works - as anyone knows, the Catholics have destroyed many of these people and their writings, so it is hard to find anything - but what is available or known about them has been quoted in the above books as well as various Baptist and Anabaptist histories. I know the Waldensians have gone apostate now - but we are not dealing with now, but with where they stood in the Dark Ages.

Amen Bother Jerry, but Calvary does not accept that, and he does not know as much about those who are on this broad as he thinks he does, or he would not have made that blanket statement.

I believe he may have been reading , please notice I said may have, what the RCC says about those folks, they brand all of them as hectics because they would not reject what they believed and join up with them.

[kevinmiller]

I think the whole idea is pretty crazy. I mean, what difference does it make whether they shared the same beliefs? I had always assumed that Baptists did their best to hold to BIBLE beliefs. So, the Waldensians and whoever else, are not Baptists, they're Christians. We come from an unbroken line of Christians. To say they were Baptists when they never labeled themselves such is completely unfounded. The entire premise is faulty since we all claim to follow the Bible, not the Baptist religion. The Waldensions were true Christians, not true Baptists. :loco

[Jerry]

Remember We have a Christian testimony to uphold guys, insults aren't called for.

Right - and I have not made any insults in this thread, and will refrain from doing so.

[Jerry]

I mean' date=' what difference does it make whether they shared the same beliefs?[/quote']

Alot!



Why do many call themselves Baptists on these boards? Because it does matter. Mormons and Catholics call themselves Christians - it is a vague term that no longer means much in itself.

There is also a major difference - Baptists are the only ones historically (I realize many today no longer stand where Baptists have once stood) who have stood for what is commonly referred to as the Baptist Distinctives. Some denominations believe many of them - but only Baptists have believed them all (hence the term) - and these groups, as has been documented in these various books, weren't just Christians, but held to the Baptist Distinctives.

B - Bible is the sole authority
A - Autonomy of the local church
P - Priesthood of the believer
T - Two offices of the local church: Pastor and Deacon
I - Individual soul liberty, equality of believers
S - Saved, then baptized for church membership
T - Two Ordinances: Believer's Baptism and the Lord's Supper
S - Separation of church and state

[kevinmiller]

Are the Baptist Distinctives Biblical or are they not? If they are Biblical then the Waldensions were following the Bible. They were Bible-believing Christians, they weren't Baptists. Since when did Baptist become interchangeable with Christian?? I mean, maybe they weren't Baptists at all, maybe we are actually Waldensions... :huh:

[Jerry]

All those distinctives are Biblical and are clearly taught in the Bible - YET NOT ALL (or even most) denominations believe those, even if they still hold to the fundamentals of the faith (which someone MUST hold to to even be saved). Believing the fundamentals and receiving Jesus as their Saviour makes someone a Biblical Christian - believing the Baptist Distinctives makes someone a Biblicist and Baptist (at least in doctrine, even if they do not identify themselves as such - I was one long before I ever knew what a Baptist was), rather than some generic "Christian".

[Calvary]

A Jerry with numbers,

Matter of fact beloved, I do find it hard to believe that you would own the doctrines of the Cathari or the main tenants of the Waldenses, or those of the Paulicans or the Albigenses or many other names you'll find in the Trail of Blood history book.

But perhaps you're right. You might believe that the virgin Mary was perpetually virgin (Paulican)or the human nature of Jesus was all that remained while on the cross (Waldenses) or perhaps you might beleive in the sacrament of marriage like you ancestors the Albigenses. The list goes on.

I have found that most brethren that defend the Trail of Blood have never really researched the works of the names they encounter in that book. I find that men claim for their heritage many heritical sects.

God bless,

Calvary

[kevinmiller]

Whoa....you have some scary views, I must say. You were a Baptist long before you realized you were? A generic Christian? Believing the fundamentals AND receiving Jesus for salvation???

Wow....

I call myself a Christian first and foremost. I didn't realize that being Baptist was more important than being a "generic Christian." Sounds almost Catholic...
So, let's see, you become a Christian first. Then the second step of obedience is Baptism. Then, you partake of the third ordinance, the Baptist church. :loco