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Bryon

The Last Trump

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On earth huh' date=' well the truth is when Jesus comes that time it will only be in the air, He will not step foot on earth until He comes to rein after the tribulations.[/quote']

Yes I understood that is what you like to teach. I just don't find it to be true.
Randy

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The Rapture of the Church:

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

The Apostle Paul said that those who "love His appearing" would get a "crown of righteousness"

2 Timothy 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Do we "love His appearing" as Paul did?

These verses say nothing of Jesus Christ returning back to earth with His Church after He meets them in the air. From chapter 4 to chapter 19 of Revelation, there is no mention of the Church.

The Second Coming is when Jesus Christ comes back to earth to reign for 1,000 years from Jerusalem. The Church will be with Him at that time:

Zechariah 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Revelation 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

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Deputy Dog stated:

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Saved people are not appointed unto wrath. We will not go through the Trib.

Would you take your child out and kill them for wrong doing? or are they your child you love would die for and do anything to protect.

The wrath we deserve was nailed to the cross 2000 years ago. praise God.


Why do faithful, Christ honoring, believers suffer under horrible persecution, torture, and death for the testimony of Christ every day in places like Viet Nam, China, Pakestan, etc. Not to mention what happened in the communist block nations during the cold war, or the believers of the 1st and 2nd centuries under the hand of Rome, or the believers under the crushing hand of Catholicism during the dark ages. Why has the loving Father allowed them to suffer "wrath" now? If they have done so and remained faithful to Christ, why wouldn't the Lord let the church go through the tribulation? Why are we so special????

A scripture I have always wanted to see is the one that states that the rapture is going to broken up into two events: one prior to the tribulation, and on at the end. I've yet to see one. There is one last trump mentioned in the Bible:

Mat 24:29

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I guess we are blessed that you know something Jesus doesn't know. It would have made it easier on me if Jesus taught what you state the bible teaches as I follow Jesus.

Randy

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John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

There is not going to be any true peace until Jesus, the Prince of Peace, returns. The church will not be going through the Tribulation. The trials and tribulations we go through in this life are NOTHING compared to the tribulation which is to come to this earth:

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Matthew 24:29-31 is speaking of the Second Coming and the re-gathering of Israel into her land after Armageddon. This has nothing to do with the church and everything to do with Israel. The Tribulation is the fulfillment of Daniel's 70th week (Daniel 9:24-27). The last 3 and 1/2 years of the Tribulation is called the Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:7).

Mark 13:23-27 is the same discourse as Matthew 24:29-31.

1 Thess. 4:13-18 is the Rapture of the Church BEFORE the beginning of Daniel's 70th week. Same thing in 1 Cor. 15:51-52.

Revelation 19 is also the Second Coming.

There needs to be a distinction made between Israel and the Church. The Tribulation/Daniel's 70th week is God's wrath and judgment on the Christ-rejecting world and to fulfill the prophecy of Daniel's 70th week for Israel. That would not include the Church.

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Please give the New Testament scripture text that clearly states that these verses are talking about Israel? You explanation is handy, but I have never had anyone, ever, give a single New Testament verse to clarify that these texts in Matthew and Mark are talking about Israel. Please post them, you will be the first.

Ben

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Please give the New Testament scripture text that clearly states that these verses are talking about Israel? You explanation is handy, but I have never had anyone, ever, give a single New Testament verse to clarify that these texts in Matthew and Mark are talking about Israel. Please post them, you will be the first.

Ben

To whom was Jesus speaking in Matthew 24 and Mark 13?

Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Matthew 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Matthew 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Matthew 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Matthew 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Mark 13:1 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!
Mark 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mark 13:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
Mark 13:4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?
Mark 13:5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:
Mark 13:6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mark 13:7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.
Mark 13:8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.

Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

This period of time (The Time of Jacob's Trouble) starts with the abomination of desolation. This is Daniel's 70th week (Daniel 9:24-27)....this all takes place in ISRAEL...the church is NOT present here.

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this all takes place in ISRAEL...the church is NOT present here.


Really? There is no church in Israel? Do you have scripture to substantiate that?

1Cr 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

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Really? There is no church in Israel? Do you have scripture to substantiate that?

1Cr 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

Did you read my entire post? The church is not present during the Tribulation. The abomination of desolation takes place in Israel...that is where the temple is located. I never said there was no church in Israel. Today there are many churches in Israel...some of those "churches" are called "Messianic Congregations"....but that is not what I was referring to in my post. We are speaking of the church being present during the Tribulation and I said it wasn't...how you came up with "there is no church in Israel" I have no clue.

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The Rapture of the Church:

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

The Apostle Paul said that those who "love His appearing" would get a "crown of righteousness"

2 Timothy 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Do we "love His appearing" as Paul did?

These verses say nothing of Jesus Christ returning back to earth with His Church after He meets them in the air. From chapter 4 to chapter 19 of Revelation, there is no mention of the Church.

The Second Coming is when Jesus Christ comes back to earth to reign for 1,000 years from Jerusalem. The Church will be with Him at that time:

Zechariah 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Revelation 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Nothing you just posted speaks of a early pullout of Christians. Only a gathering on the return of the Lord just as Jesus taught. Those who have died in Christ rising and those left alive on earth being caught up. As Jesus stated he would send out His angels to gather His elect.

Randy

Randy

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As shown there are saints in tribulation and there currently are a large number of believers in Israel. The two witnesses who do belong to Jesus will testify to the whole world, but I do expect some new believers to come into the fold when they rise after 3-1/2 days and are taken up to heaven. Rev 12:17 suggests outside of geographic area of Israel. Rev 13:9-10 states "saints" not recent coverts from Judaism

Jesus told people in Jerusalem when those events happened to flee not that He would pull out anyone early. This is also supported in Zech 14:5 Israel will be saved by the Lord in those days. Those who have died in the Lord will come back with Him just as Paul taught. Paul made no mention of a early pull out. He was teaching there would be christians alive on earth at the Lords return. (2nd coming) Just as Jesus taught He will come like a thief on that last day Rev 16:15. Zech 14 shows detail about that day and those events happen swiftly

Randy

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Linda, you said:

Did you read my entire post? The church is not present during the Tribulation.


This is an asumption based on the fact that you, like I, have always been taught that the church is going out before the tribulation, therefore, you cannot see that it might be otherwise. Did you know that the pretrib position is a new position (late 1800's early 1900's,) that was derived from a woman in the Plymouth Brethren movement? Her pastor started teaching it and it took off like wild fire. Other godly PB, like George Mueller (of Bristol,) and others stood up in firm opposition. It hit the seminaries throught poeple like C.I. Scofield and boom it was on it's way. Do some research about where the pretrib rapture teaching started and what the godly men of the Bible thought when it started. It was NOT the Baptist stand at all but was foist upon the the Baptists by the evangelicals that started it.

Scofield, Darby, Ruckman, and other hyper dispensationalist have put such a skew on things that it is hard for one to read the scripture without the preconcieved notions that we are going out before the tribulation. I was a firm pretribber until challenged to do some independent research (this doesn't include Tim LaHaye and the such,) but other men of God whom we trust and revere like the great old evangelist Oswald J. Smith. I challenge you to look into this, sister. I sure don't want to come across contrary, but this has serious implications.

I hope, I'm wrong. I'd love to go out before. BUT!!!! If we don't go out before, we will see antichrist come on the scene. Thinking we are going to be gone, many who have false professions will think this guy is the new Billy Graham. He will sweep the professing church (not the true believers,) off their feet. I know I sound like a fruit cake for buying all this, but I have serious concern about the niavatee (sp?) of the church in regards to the question: "Would God let his children go through tribulation?" He has in the past and still does all around the world. The professing church is dirty right now. God has always turned up the heat to purge and bring forth the gold. Pray, study.

Ben

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Yes, for some it was new teaching, for the rapture to occur before the tribulation, but for those who always held to the truth, it was not new teachings, it was the truth the Bible always taught.

Some people will try to make people believe anything in order to get them to accept their false paths, remember, Old Satan has been a liar and a deceiver from the beginning, and he is still hard a work.

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Yes, for some it was new teaching, for the rapture to occur before the tribulation, but for those who always held to the truth, it was not new teachings, it was the truth the Bible always taught.


I'm just curious, Jerry, do you know of anyone who taught pretrib rapture prior to its discovery this last century? Afterall:

Ecc 1:9 The thing that hath been, it [is that] which shall be; and that which is done [is] that which shall be done: and [there is] no new [thing] under the sun.
Ecc 1:10 Is there [any] thing whereof it may be said, See, this [is] new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.

Ben

P.S. As far as false paths and Satan's lies, great men of God taught a post trib, pre wrath rapture.

No Pre-Tribulationists Before the Last Century

It has long been pointed out that pre-tribulationism is a relatively new doctrine. With one possible exception, there is no record of it being taught before the past century. Now this does not in itself mean that it is false, but it should raise some eyebrows. If Peter and Paul taught pre-tribulationism, then we would expect the early church to have been pre-trib. This challenge intrigued Grant R. Jeffrey so much that he searched for over ten years for evidence of pre-tribulationism before the 1800s.1 He found one person in the fourth century whom he claims was a pre-tribulationist.2 This person is called Pseudo-Ephraem.3 Since there had been no official translation of this work into English, Jeffrey had someone translate it for him.

According to his translation, Pseudo-Ephraem wrote "See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: ?Woe to those who desire to see the Day of the Lord!? Because all saints and the Elect of the Lord are gathered together before the tribulation which is about to come and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins." Now on the surface this does seem to support Jeffrey?s claim. But a few things are worthy of note. According to this document, Pseudo-Ephraem correctly understood the Tribulation to refer to the second 3

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Yes, for some it was new teaching, for the rapture to occur before the tribulation, but for those who always held to the truth, it was not new teachings, it was the truth the Bible always taught.

Some people will try to make people believe anything in order to get them to accept their false paths, remember, Old Satan has been a liar and a deceiver from the beginning, and he is still hard a work.

:amen::amen: Satan knows his time is short...he is working overtime!

There seems to be some here who are not "loving His appearing" and not "looking for the blessed hope".
2 Timothy 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Don't be like the "scoffers" in 2 Peter 3:3-4:

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2 Peter 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

It is highly probable that Paul and the other Apostles truly expected Jesus to return "in the air" for His Bride during their lifetime. The rapture was imminent then as it still is today.

Maranatha!

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:amen::amen: Satan knows his time is short...he is working overtime!

There seems to be some here who are not "loving His appearing" and not "looking for the blessed hope".
2 Timothy 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Don't be like the "scoffers" in 2 Peter 3:3-4:

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2 Peter 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

It is highly probable that Paul and the other Apostles truly expected Jesus to return "in the air" for His Bride during their lifetime. The rapture was imminent then as it still is today.

Maranatha!


Linda, Many buy into those lies, but there really is nothing we can do to change their minds. It seems PreacherBen is very strong in what he believe about this judging from his post.

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Linda, you said:

There seems to be some here who are not "loving His appearing" and not "looking for the blessed hope".

Don't be like the "scoffers" in 2 Peter 3:3-4:


Sister, why would you accuse me of such a terrible thing? I love my Lord Jesus Christ and I can think of nothing to compare with the wonder of who He is in my life now, and the glory of His appearing. It is only me, you, and Jerry talking right now, who would be the "some here?"

Furthermore, did you hear a scoffing tone in my posts?
2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation.

Did I say where is the promise of his coming? I know he is coming, I am sure of it. I realize I am the only one here, or the only one who I've seen so far, that have done extensive study regarding this issue. I feel you (and Jerry) are Bereans and study the scripture, but many are spoon fed and only parrot what they have been taught. When I dug in, I came to a different conclusion that what my fathers have taught me. I set out to prove the pretrib rapture, and found otherwise. I feel many times people hyper define, cross reference, etc., a scripture into oblivion and make it say what they want, and yes, I'm sure I can be accused of the same thing.

I assure you, I love his appearing, and I am not a scoffer. I take my relationship with Christ very seriously and I am appauled at the worldly, lustful nature of the 21st century church. I am afraid that even in fundamental ranks, many have made a shallow profession and are in grave danger of eternal ruin. Others, knowing Christ, trample under foot the blood of the covenant and walk in the flesh to the shame of the beauty of the bride Christ is coming back for.

I am listening for the trumpet, but, I am convinced, we are not going to hear it prior to the trib. As I said, I hope I am wrong, I'd love to miss the trouble ahead. But, if I am right, we had better be ready.

Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

The thief is coming...

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Linda, you said:



Sister, why would you accuse me of such a terrible thing? I love my Lord Jesus Christ and I can think of nothing to compare with the wonder of who He is in my life now, and the glory of His appearing. It is only me, you, and Jerry talking right now, who would be the "some here?"

Furthermore, did you hear a scoffing tone in my posts?
2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation.

Did I say where is the promise of his coming? I know he is coming, I am sure of it. I realize I am the only one here, or the only one who I've seen so far, that have done extensive study regarding this issue. I feel you (and Jerry) are Bereans and study the scripture, but many are spoon fed and only parrot what they have been taught. When I dug in, I came to a different conclusion that what my fathers have taught me. I set out to prove the pretrib rapture, and found otherwise. I feel many times people hyper define, cross reference, etc., a scripture into oblivion and make it say what they want, and yes, I'm sure I can be accused of the same thing.

I assure you, I love his appearing, and I am not a scoffer. I take my relationship with Christ very seriously and I am appauled at the worldly, lustful nature of the 21st century church. I am afraid that even in fundamental ranks, many have made a shallow profession and are in grave danger of eternal ruin. Others, knowing Christ, trample under foot the blood of the covenant and walk in the flesh to the shame of the beauty of the bride Christ is coming back for.

I am listening for the trumpet, but, I am convinced, we are not going to hear it prior to the trib. As I said, I hope I am wrong, I'd love to miss the trouble ahead. But, if I am right, we had better be ready.

Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

The thief is coming...


I haven't been able to keep up with this thread as my schedual has been hectic. If you don't believe in the pre-trib Rapture, when do you believe Christ will return? I've probably missed much, including your explanation of this, but if you could, please answer this as I don't know if I will have the time to go back over this thread or not before I forget it's here. Thank you!

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PreacherBen...

I'm with John81 here....when do you believe the Lord Jesus will come for His Bride if you don't believe He will return "in the air" before the Tribulation? Please don't use the commentaries of the men...Matthew 24 and Mark 13 speak of Israel, not the Church.

Another question: Why in the world would you want to "prove" the pre-trib rapture? Did you not believe it or did you already believe in it and were trying to prove it to others who didn't?

Why would you say many are "spoon fed" and only "parrot what they are taught"? I don't find this to be true. Most Christians I know study the Scriptures and seek answers from that study. I'm not against commentaries, but they are man's interpretations...they are helpful and informational, but they are not inspired by God.

The day of the LORD will come as a "thief in the night"..in the twinkling of an eye, 16 the LORD will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Thess. 4:16-17) He will be coming for those who "love His appearing" and are "looking for the blessed hope". If you "love His appearing", He is coming for you!

I believe that Scripture teaches that the LORD's coming is imminent as it was back in first century...in Paul's lifetime. I believe that the Church today has lost that hope of imminency of which the Apostle Paul spoke about.

Maranatha!

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:amen::amen: Satan knows his time is short...he is working overtime!

There seems to be some here who are not "loving His appearing" and not "looking for the blessed hope".
2 Timothy 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Don't be like the "scoffers" in 2 Peter 3:3-4:

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2 Peter 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

It is highly probable that Paul and the other Apostles truly expected Jesus to return "in the air" for His Bride during their lifetime. The rapture was imminent then as it still is today.

Maranatha!


Scoffers? Linda please. We all believe in the Lords 2nd Coming and the judgment that will one day come upon the whole world. Jesus didn't teach a pretrib pullout of anyone. Pauls writing clearly speaks of the dead in Christ rising First and that is the resurection as spoken of by Jesus. Paul stated we would be with the Lord forever not that the people would go back to heaven. Our place at that time will be on the earth with Jesus. Jesus taught He would send out His angels to gather His elect and Pauls teaching that very "gathering". Hence "the dead in Christ will rise first then those left alive are caught up". Shows us where Paul stated those that rise from death turn around and go back to heaven. Pauls teaching is consistent with the Lords.

Randy

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Randy W,

Are you saying that when Christ comes for the 'dead in Christ' in 1 Thessalonians 4, that He is only coming back for the dead at that time and those who 'are alive and remain in Him' will remain on the earth?

If not, please explain what you mean.


I am stating Paul is speaking of the 2nd coming and the 1st ress. (No going back to heaven - as Jesus taught after the distress of those days He would send out his angels to gather His elect) - See zech 14 6-9 by evening of that day.. That event happens on that last day

We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

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PreacherBen...

I'm with John81 here....when do you believe the Lord Jesus will come for His Bride if you don't believe He will return "in the air" before the Tribulation? Please don't use the commentaries of the men...Matthew 24 and Mark 13 speak of Israel, not the Church.

Another question: Why in the world would you want to "prove" the pre-trib rapture? Did you not believe it or did you already believe in it and were trying to prove it to others who didn't?

Why would you say many are "spoon fed" and only "parrot what they are taught"? I don't find this to be true. Most Christians I know study the Scriptures and seek answers from that study. I'm not against commentaries, but they are man's interpretations...they are helpful and informational, but they are not inspired by God.

The day of the LORD will come as a "thief in the night"..in the twinkling of an eye, 16 the LORD will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Thess. 4:16-17) He will be coming for those who "love His appearing" and are "looking for the blessed hope". If you "love His appearing", He is coming for you!

I believe that Scripture teaches that the LORD's coming is imminent as it was back in first century...in Paul's lifetime. I believe that the Church today has lost that hope of imminency of which the Apostle Paul spoke about.

Maranatha!


Yes, the Lord will return as a thief in the night and that event as shown in Rev 16:15 is just as Jesus taught- no prep trib pull out

15"Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed."

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