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The Last Trump


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We all believe in the Lords 2nd Coming and the judgment that will one day come upon the whole world. Jesus didn't teach a pretrib pullout of anyone.



2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ (Bridegroom) is at hand.

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. (Comforter/Church rapture)


8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, (Tribulation period)

whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: (Day of the lord)

The tribulation is "Sandwiched" between the Day of Christ (Bridegroom/Rapture) and the "day of the Lord", (Jesus's return to earth)


Pauls writing clearly speaks of the dead in Christ rising First and that is the resurection as spoken of by Jesus. Paul stated we would be with the Lord forever not that the people would go back to heaven.


Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. (heaven)

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; (Jesus reaping, not angels) that where I am, there ye may be also. (heaven)




Our place at that time will be on the earth with Jesus. Jesus taught He would send out His angels to gather His elect and Pauls teaching that very "gathering".


Jesus is the "Reaper" in the rapture, (day of Christ) the angels are the "Reapers" in the "day of the Lord". (Return to earth, "first resurrection")

Re 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, (saints) and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. (rapture)

Da 9:27 And he shall confirm the (new) covenant with many for one week:


Hence "the dead in Christ will rise first then those left alive are caught up". Shows us where Paul stated those that rise from death turn around and go back to heaven. Pauls teaching is consistent with the Lords.

Randy


"NO RIGHTEOUS DEAD" are "resurrected" from the Grave when Jesus returns, all "SOULS" of the "DECEASED" are in heaven and return "WITH HIM",
1Th 3:13 at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

the angels reaper only "separate" the "LIVING", (Wheat/tares), unsaved dead stay dead until the GWT.

Mt 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

In the Rapture the "Righteous" are "FIRST" gathered, Jesus's return the "TARES" are "FIRST" gathered.

Daniel's book wasn't to be understood except by the generation to whom it pertained, the "LAST generation" AT THE "TIME OF THE END", God doesn't necessarily reveal scripture/prophecy to generations to whom the scripture/prophecy doesn't pertain,

The disciples wanted to know when Jesus would restore Israel, he told them it wasn't for them to know, today we do, and understand Daniel's book.

I'd keep this in mind when quoting someone from a generation to whom the prophecy didn't pertain, not that they were always wrong, just that God doesn't normally reveal it to people if it's not "relevant" to their generation.
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I haven't been able to keep up with this thread as my schedual has been hectic. If you don't believe in the pre-trib Rapture, when do you believe Christ will return? I've probably missed much, including your explanation of this, but if you could, please answer this as I don't know if I will have the time to go back over this thread or not before I forget it's here. Thank you!


Bro. John,
I believe the rapture is a singular event at the close of the tribulation right before the Lord returns and pours out his wrath on the armies of the kingdoms of the earth.

Rev 19:11
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2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ (Bridegroom) is at hand.

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. (Comforter/Church rapture)


8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, (Tribulation period)

whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: (Day of the lord)

The tribulation is "Sandwiched" between the Day of Christ (Bridegroom/Rapture) and the "day of the Lord", (Jesus's return to earth)



Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. (heaven)

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; (Jesus reaping, not angels) that where I am, there ye may be also. (heaven)





Jesus is the "Reaper" in the rapture, (day of Christ) the angels are the "Reapers" in the "day of the Lord". (Return to earth, "first resurrection")

Re 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, (saints) and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. (rapture)

Da 9:27 And he shall confirm the (new) covenant with many for one week:



"NO RIGHTEOUS DEAD" are "resurrected" from the Grave when Jesus returns, all "SOULS" of the "DECEASED" are in heaven and return "WITH HIM",
1Th 3:13 at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

the angels reaper only "separate" the "LIVING", (Wheat/tares), unsaved dead stay dead until the GWT.

Mt 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

In the Rapture the "Righteous" are "FIRST" gathered, Jesus's return the "TARES" are "FIRST" gathered.

Daniel's book wasn't to be understood except by the generation to whom it pertained, the "LAST generation" AT THE "TIME OF THE END", God doesn't necessarily reveal scripture/prophecy to generations to whom the scripture/prophecy doesn't pertain,

The disciples wanted to know when Jesus would restore Israel, he told them it wasn't for them to know, today we do, and understand Daniel's book.

I'd keep this in mind when quoting someone from a generation to whom the prophecy didn't pertain, not that they were always wrong, just that God doesn't normally reveal it to people if it's not "relevant" to their generation.


None of anything you posted either implys or states that those who have fallen asleep in christ that rise with the Lords return go back to heaven. Those that are left alive are caught up and changed in a twinkling of eye from mortal to immortal bodies. Jesus didn't teach a pretrib rapture. If He did I would be with you on this subject.

Randy
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None of anything you posted either implys or states that those who have fallen asleep in christ that rise with the Lords return go back to heaven. Those that are left alive are caught up and changed in a twinkling of eye from mortal to immortal bodies. Jesus didn't teach a pretrib rapture. If He did I would be with you on this subject.

Randy


The OT taught that when "Messiah" came he would set up a kingdom on earth, and Jews/Israel would be "Resurrected", back on earth,

Jesus taught that he was preparing a place in "HEAVEN" for the "Church" where we would go for a short time period, (one week/7 years)

The OT teaches a "Resurrection", the NT, a "Rapture", two different doctrine,

Both are correct, but answer this,

"WHAT" is the purpose in Rapturing only the church (believers) from earth for this time period and

why was this revealed only to the church saints???

Anyone can read what is happening in scripture, but if they don't know "WHY" it's happening, they really don't understand the scriptures, so "WHY" is the most important question you can answer.
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Anyone can read what is happening in scripture, but if they don't know "WHY" it's happening, they really don't understand the scriptures, so "WHY" is the most important question you can answer.

I think Daniel 9:24-27 is the "why":

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
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The OT taught that when "Messiah" came he would set up a kingdom on earth, and Jews/Israel would be "Resurrected", back on earth,

Jesus taught that he was preparing a place in "HEAVEN" for the "Church" where we would go for a short time period, (one week/7 years)

The OT teaches a "Resurrection", the NT, a "Rapture", two different doctrine,

Both are correct, but answer this,

"WHAT" is the purpose in Rapturing only the church (believers) from earth for this time period and

why was this revealed only to the church saints???

Anyone can read what is happening in scripture, but if they don't know "WHY" it's happening, they really don't understand the scriptures, so "WHY" is the most important question you can answer.


If I died today I believe Jesus has prepared a place for me in heaven with Him until that last day when I rise with the rest of my brothers and sisters in Christ to come down and dwell on earth with Jesus. There are already a great many saints in heaven. I don't see "B" in scripture. The word of God is plain for all to read. I understand and believe what Jesus taught.

Randy
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If I died today I believe Jesus has prepared a place for me in heaven with Him until that last day when I rise with the rest of my brothers and sisters in Christ to come down and dwell on earth with Jesus. There are already a great many saints in heaven. I don't see "B" in scripture. The word of God is plain for all to read. I understand and believe what Jesus taught.

Randy



Israel believed the soul stays in the "grave" until "resurrected", "BACK ON EARTH", they don't believe the soul goes to heaven, and then returns.

So what you believe is not what the OT people believed, therefore you don't see any differences between their belief and your's.

Jesus/church/comforter/rapture/going to heaven/returning are all "mysteries" to Israel, one reason they reject it.

The OT pretty much stops with the "Virgin Birth", then pickup again with Jesus's "returning" on Mt Olives", this is why Israel is "BLINDED", during the church period.

"CLUES" about the church period are in the OT, but being blind, Israel doesn't see these clues.

Israel never "dreamed" of going to heaven when they died, only to the "grave". (Abraham's bosom)
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Thank you. I'll have to study over this better when I have more time.

Do you believe that Believers will suffer along with the unsaved during the Tribulation or do you believe they will have some sort of Divine protection? I've heard both views stated by some who hold to a post-trib Rapture.
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Do you believe that Believers will suffer along with the unsaved during the Tribulation or do you believe they will have some sort of Divine protection? I've heard both views stated by some who hold to a post-trib Rapture.


I believe some will suffer, just as they do today in China, Viet Nam, Muslim nations, etc. However, I do think there will be divine protectioin and provision just as the Hebrews receved in Egypt. God did not keep them from trouble, but kept them through the trouble. God's wrath is for the ungodly and unrepentant, not his children.

Ben
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I believe some will suffer, just as they do today in China, Viet Nam, Muslim nations, etc. However, I do think there will be divine protectioin and provision just as the Hebrews receved in Egypt. God did not keep them from trouble, but kept them through the trouble. God's wrath is for the ungodly and unrepentant, not his children.

Ben


Okay, this right here is why I asked because I believe this: "God's wrath is for the ungodly and unrepentant, not his children".

Even so, I've heard some post-trib folks who seem to think otherwise.

I have read that some believe that just as God plagued Egypt without it effecting the Jews, that God will thus protect His people through the Tribulation. Of course it would have to be somewhat different because Christians would be spread througout the world rather than be localized in a small area.

I'll have to study this further. I studied the Rapture/end times a couple of years ago for an entire year and while I came away from that studying believing the Pre-trib Rapture to be most likely, I could not come up with conclusive proof say 100% that this would be the case. That said, from all that I studied, the Pre-trib Rapture seemed to have more of a foundation than the othes. I believe it was amillinialism that had the least.
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I believe some will suffer, just as they do today in China, Viet Nam, Muslim nations, etc. However, I do think there will be divine protectioin and provision just as the Hebrews receved in Egypt. God did not keep them from trouble, but kept them through the trouble. God's wrath is for the ungodly and unrepentant, not his children.

Ben


Why would God protect some saints and allow satan to kill others???

Satan is given "power" (dominion) over all kindren, tongues and nations, that doesn't exclude anyone, even "saints".

Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you:

The OT reveals much of the tribulation period, and the "day of the Lord", (Jesus' return) but you won't find any mention of the church in the OT or it's description of the tribulation,

The reason being is the church has no part in the 70 week prophecy for "Israel", that is "Jacob's trouble" (tribulation) for rejecting "GOD". (Jesus)

The "comforter" will never leave "Believers", and so long as "HE" is in the world, Satan can't prevail over "Saints" indwelled by him,

OT Testament saint didn't have this "comforter", they were under the "law and Prophet" system, as they will be during the trib, God will send "Prophets" to speak to Israel for him. (two witnesses, Moses/Elijah)

Israel rejected God speaking "DIRECTLY" to them at Mt Sinai and again through Jesus, perferring God speak to prophets who then could speak to them.

Ex 20:19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.


Heb 1:1 God, spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 (God) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,

speaking directly is the "voice of God" or "comforter/holy ghost", I.e. Jesus.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my (Jesus's) name.

As shown above, there are numberous contradiction of scripture if the Comforter/Church are still in the world during the tribulation period,

Satan fleeing from/can't prevail over church saints indwelled by the comforter, but yet attacking/prevailing over trib saints are just a few of the many difference between the church and Israel.

Israel enter the trib as "Chastisement" fo rejecting God/Jesus, and "chastisement" results in "STRIPES" in their flesh, Jesus has already suffer the "Chastisement" for "HIS BODY" (church) with "HIS BODY".

Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

There's no Chastisement due the church.
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Israel believed the soul stays in the "grave" until "resurrected", "BACK ON EARTH", they don't believe the soul goes to heaven, and then returns.

So what you believe is not what the OT people believed, therefore you don't see any differences between their belief and your's.

Jesus/church/comforter/rapture/going to heaven/returning are all "mysteries" to Israel, one reason they reject it.

The OT pretty much stops with the "Virgin Birth", then pickup again with Jesus's "returning" on Mt Olives", this is why Israel is "BLINDED", during the church period.

"CLUES" about the church period are in the OT, but being blind, Israel doesn't see these clues.

Israel never "dreamed" of going to heaven when they died, only to the "grave". (Abraham's bosom)


I believe that Jesus has prepared a place for me so when I die my spirit will be with Him. Just as Jesus taught His disciples. . Ot people, as you call them, didn't have the benefit of the teaching of Jesus. Jesus did teach us about what would take place in the time of the end. Jesus didn't make any statements about anyone being pulled out before the distress of those days. Neither did Paul.
Randy
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Jesus did teach us about what would take place in the time of the end.

Jesus didn't make any statements about anyone being pulled out before the distress of those days. Neither did Paul.
Randy


How do you know what Jesus was teaching if you don't understand it "in context" with the OT as compared to the NT???

You cripple yourself when you decide what you're going to believe before studying/learning,

and worse of all, the "Spirit" won't attempt to teach you, because it demands total submission.
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How do you know what Jesus was teaching if you don't understand it "in context" with the OT as compared to the NT???

You cripple yourself when you decide what you're going to believe before studying/learning,

and worse of all, the "Spirit" won't attempt to teach you, because it demands total submission.



I would state your premise is false and the scriptures about the timing of the Lord returns and the dead in Christ rising are consistent except with the timing of the 2nd death. I am premil because of the testimony of Jesus in rev 20. Daniel 12:2 & matt 25:26 don't imply a 1000 year gap. Either way we are going in circles

Randy
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Me4Him said:

Why would God protect some saints and allow satan to kill others???


Answer this: do saints die right now under God hating regimes?

Why?

What's the difference is they die in the last 7 years and if they die now?

Does God not love the one's who die now?

Don't skirt these, answer them.
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