The Last Trump

[LindaR]

There is a list of reasons why we believe in the Rapture of the Church in the articles section of OB. I'll see if it is still there.

This book by Renald Showers is also a good study if one is unsure or mistaken about the Rapture vs. the 2nd Coming.

http://www.amazon.com/Maranatha-Our-Lor ... 75-7831167

If you don't want to buy the book, go to http://www.bbnbi.org to hear Dr. Showers' 6 messages on prophecy. The link is for the Bible Broadcasting Network's Bible Institute. To hear the messages, sign up as a student (its FREE!), click on "Browse Courses" at the top, select "Bible Doctrines" and then scroll down until you find "Doctrine of Future Events" by Renald Showers. There are 6 sermons.

I have a couple of books by Dr. Renald Showers: Maranatha Our Lord, Come!: A definition of the Rapture of the Church; and There Really Is A Difference: A comparison of Covenant and Dispensational Theology. Both are excellent. Also by Renald Showers, is an article comparing the Rapture of the Church to a Jewish wedding ceremony...it's called Behold! The Bridegroom Comes! That last article was written in the 70s for Israel My Glory magazine, a publication of Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry. I don't have the web page url, but I can look it up and post it.

Heres's the link to that article:

http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/jewish_marriage_customs.htm

[JerryNumbers]

Thanks be to God that we who are in Christ have;

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Titus 2:13 (KJV)

that blessed hope and shall be taken out prior to the tribulations falling upon this earth and that anti-christ being revealed.

[deputydog530]

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Saved people are not appointed unto wrath. We will not go through the Trib.

Would you take your child out and kill them for wrong doing? or are they your child you love would die for and do anything to protect.

The wrath we deserve was nailed to the cross 2000 years ago. praise God.

[RandyW]

Get real, please read the verse.

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Thess 4:17 (KJV)

Yes just as I stated we will be with the Lord. The scripture made no statement about going back to heaven. Our place will be on the earth with Jesus as is stated elsewhere in regard to the 1st resurrection.
Randy

[JerryNumbers]

On earth huh, well the truth is when Jesus comes that time it will only be in the air, He will not step foot on earth until He comes to rein after the tribulations.

[RandyW]

On earth huh' date=' well the truth is when Jesus comes that time it will only be in the air, He will not step foot on earth until He comes to rein after the tribulations.[/quote']

Yes I understood that is what you like to teach. I just don't find it to be true.
Randy

[LindaR]

The Rapture of the Church:

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

The Apostle Paul said that those who "love His appearing" would get a "crown of righteousness"

2 Timothy 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Do we "love His appearing" as Paul did?

These verses say nothing of Jesus Christ returning back to earth with His Church after He meets them in the air. From chapter 4 to chapter 19 of Revelation, there is no mention of the Church.

The Second Coming is when Jesus Christ comes back to earth to reign for 1,000 years from Jerusalem. The Church will be with Him at that time:

Zechariah 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Revelation 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

[JerryNumbers]

Actually why I like to teach that is because it is what the Bible teaches.

[PreacherBen]

Deputy Dog stated:

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Saved people are not appointed unto wrath. We will not go through the Trib.

Would you take your child out and kill them for wrong doing? or are they your child you love would die for and do anything to protect.

The wrath we deserve was nailed to the cross 2000 years ago. praise God.

Why do faithful, Christ honoring, believers suffer under horrible persecution, torture, and death for the testimony of Christ every day in places like Viet Nam, China, Pakestan, etc. Not to mention what happened in the communist block nations during the cold war, or the believers of the 1st and 2nd centuries under the hand of Rome, or the believers under the crushing hand of Catholicism during the dark ages. Why has the loving Father allowed them to suffer "wrath" now? If they have done so and remained faithful to Christ, why wouldn't the Lord let the church go through the tribulation? Why are we so special????

A scripture I have always wanted to see is the one that states that the rapture is going to broken up into two events: one prior to the tribulation, and on at the end. I've yet to see one. There is one last trump mentioned in the Bible:

Mat 24:29

[RandyW]

I guess we are blessed that you know something Jesus doesn't know. It would have made it easier on me if Jesus taught what you state the bible teaches as I follow Jesus.

Randy

[LindaR]

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

There is not going to be any true peace until Jesus, the Prince of Peace, returns. The church will not be going through the Tribulation. The trials and tribulations we go through in this life are NOTHING compared to the tribulation which is to come to this earth:

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Matthew 24:29-31 is speaking of the Second Coming and the re-gathering of Israel into her land after Armageddon. This has nothing to do with the church and everything to do with Israel. The Tribulation is the fulfillment of Daniel's 70th week (Daniel 9:24-27). The last 3 and 1/2 years of the Tribulation is called the Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:7).

Mark 13:23-27 is the same discourse as Matthew 24:29-31.

1 Thess. 4:13-18 is the Rapture of the Church BEFORE the beginning of Daniel's 70th week. Same thing in 1 Cor. 15:51-52.

Revelation 19 is also the Second Coming.

There needs to be a distinction made between Israel and the Church. The Tribulation/Daniel's 70th week is God's wrath and judgment on the Christ-rejecting world and to fulfill the prophecy of Daniel's 70th week for Israel. That would not include the Church.

[PreacherBen]

Please give the New Testament scripture text that clearly states that these verses are talking about Israel? You explanation is handy, but I have never had anyone, ever, give a single New Testament verse to clarify that these texts in Matthew and Mark are talking about Israel. Please post them, you will be the first.

Ben

[LindaR]

Please give the New Testament scripture text that clearly states that these verses are talking about Israel? You explanation is handy, but I have never had anyone, ever, give a single New Testament verse to clarify that these texts in Matthew and Mark are talking about Israel. Please post them, you will be the first.

Ben

To whom was Jesus speaking in Matthew 24 and Mark 13?

Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Matthew 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Matthew 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Matthew 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Matthew 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Mark 13:1 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!
Mark 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mark 13:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
Mark 13:4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?
Mark 13:5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:
Mark 13:6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mark 13:7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.
Mark 13:8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.

Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

This period of time (The Time of Jacob's Trouble) starts with the abomination of desolation. This is Daniel's 70th week (Daniel 9:24-27)....this all takes place in ISRAEL...the church is NOT present here.

[PreacherBen]

this all takes place in ISRAEL...the church is NOT present here.

Really? There is no church in Israel? Do you have scripture to substantiate that?

1Cr 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

[LindaR]

Really? There is no church in Israel? Do you have scripture to substantiate that?

1Cr 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

Did you read my entire post? The church is not present during the Tribulation. The abomination of desolation takes place in Israel...that is where the temple is located. I never said there was no church in Israel. Today there are many churches in Israel...some of those "churches" are called "Messianic Congregations"....but that is not what I was referring to in my post. We are speaking of the church being present during the Tribulation and I said it wasn't...how you came up with "there is no church in Israel" I have no clue.