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The Last Trump


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Ok, I'll make myself very clear then:

I believe, without a doubt, that anyone who KNOWS it's pre-trib, post-trib, mid-trib, is fooling themselves.

You can believe what you want, but the arguments are there for all of them, and as far as pre or post trib, the biblical verses that back up both arguments are just as strong.

I fully believe, that with a study of scripture, and even using logical practices, you can't make a firm stand for either. There is just not enough evidence in scripture to discount one, or put one above the other.

You wanna get dogmatic about something, go ahead. But in being dogmatic what you're saying is that anyone who doesn't agree with you is wrong and must be corrected. If a church agrees with everything you stand for, except this issue, you see it as a church you cannot belong too or fellowship with, because dogmatic issues don't line up.

Realize exactly what it is you're so "serious" about, and ask yourself how in the world it matters. Oh, everything in the bible matters, don't get me wrong. Everything in the bible is worth studying as deeply as one wants. But no ones walk with God is effected by a pre-post rapture view. No ones salvation depends on a pre-post rapture view. No ones prayer life depends on a pre-post rapture view.

If you say it's a dogmatic issue, then I ask you WHY?!? Name one thing this would effect.

Rolf.. this is so what I was talking about:

I dodge talk about the rapture and end times more then anything else. I have found that nothing gets people more upset then any questioning of what they believe' date=' and usually what they believe is what they have been taught.[/quote']
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From Revelations 4:1 to Revelations 19:11 the church is not mentioned. Why? Because its in heaven, not on earth.

Jesus came in the air, 1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 4:18 and took it off the face of the earth up into heaven.

Surely, if Jesus' Church, as important as it is, was on this earth during that time it would have been mentioned.

No, Jesus' Church will not go thru the tribulations. But there will be people saved during that time, because of the stand they make for Jesus they will be murdered by the anti-christ.

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yea.. you know... I'm not gonna get into this with you. There is no argument, no bible verse, no "view" of things, that I haven't seen, and I've danced this dance to many times to bother watching you run around in circles trying to prove a non-provable point.

murdered by the anti-christ.

Unless you want me to point out stupid things like the fact there is no mention of an "anti-christ" in the book of revelation. There is no SINGLE person in the entire BIBLE called "the anti-christ"
Instead, anyone who's against God is called an anti-christ in 1st and 2nd John.

Of course, given that there is no mention of an anti-christ in the book of revelation, by your argument, that means in the end, there will be no anti-christs. Oh, no mention also of donuts, so those must have been made illegal and no longer exist at world's end.
You must have known this though, given that you're SUCH an expert on the rapture and end times, that you MUST be right about these things. Maybe your bible says anti-christ somewhere in revelation? Maybe you should check the cover for a 1611.

So if people are getting saved, they are not going to be part of the church? That's what you're saying.

Oh man, you know, I'm starting to get into it again.

Tell you what, you go nuts and respond about how smart you are, and how stupid I am.. go ahead and put your little verses that say nothing more then two people in a field and one is gone, and then say that fields are not mentioned in revelation so this must take place before the trib.. la la la la. Like I said, the arguments abound for both views, my view is no one should argue to strongly for any view, and some how you think after I already pointed out that I studied this greatly, that you can post a couple verses with a bad string of garbage and it proves you're right.

I think that's why I can't stop typing. I seriously feel insulted that you would think that I have not only never seen the verses on this topic, or heard those arguments, but you actually think that what you said means anything to anyone outside of people who read the left behind series.

Hey, you're an expert huh? How come Jesus let the people fold their clothing when they where raptured? Rolf.....

The funny thing is, I bet I can argue a pre-trib rapture better then you can. If what you just posted is any measure, seems like you think you can post one argument that's full of speculation and guess work and this is a solid argument for you?

Well, I said I wasn't gonna do it, but man that just sorta burns me when people do that. I don't harbor bad feelings toward you Jerry80871852, I mostly hate how I see so many Christians get passionate about needless stuff like pre-post trib, and I bet you hear someone drop a GD and you ignore it. Sweet priorities.

Well, he tried to win me over to pre-trib... any mid tribbers or post trib people wanna shoot their verses at me now? I mean, lets give fair room for it all huh? lol....

so silly
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They are many reason why the rapture is before the tribulations, I offered one of them, others have given you many other reason in previous post. I did not mention them because they have already been mentioned, put them all together, them you have a solid reason to believe the rapture takes place before the tribulations.

And you come up with.

<>

:uuhm: Now, who was it that said anyone was smart, or anyone was dumb?

Why bring that into the topic? Is that an attack on me and others who hold to the rapture before the tribulation and disagree with you?

Its uncalled for, completely uncalled for. And rightly has not place in this topic.

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Wow, Qwerty, first you say it doesn't matter - then you get all bent out of shape!

Besides, if the endtimes didn't matter - and the order of events didn't matter - then God wouldn't have put them in the Bible.

If all you are going to do is flaunt your ignorance and get all hot under the collar, perhaps you would be better off sticking to the threads you actually know something about.

Most people on these boards hold to a Pre-Trib stand - why? Because they are convinced that the Bible teaches that position.

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:uuhm: Now, who was it that said anyone was smart, or anyone was dumb?

Why bring that into the topic? Is that an attack on me and others who hold to the rapture before the tribulation and disagree with you?


Nope, not an attack on you, or any others. Like I said, I've had this conversation so many times before, I already know where it would head if I continued. No need for the gift of prophecy on that lol.

I don't disagree with a pre-trib rapture. I've stated my thoughts now a couple times.

If all you are going to do is flaunt your ignorance and get all hot under the collar' date=' perhaps you would be better off sticking to the threads you actually know something about.[/quote']

Just to point out here, you are not just saying I'm ignorant on this topic, but you have called me a liar. I have stated that I have done extensive study on this topic. I have read over 2 dozen books dealing with this, I have spent, as God as my witness, at least 80 hours of direct biblical study dealing with this. I have had many teachers and people who I've questioned extensively on this.

This is what I pointed out, I just got the Jerry's wrong I guess. You're now saying "I'm smart you're dumb" because you hold to a firm belief in pre-trib rapture, and I say you can't know that by the bible alone.

I don't care what people believe on the rapture. It SERIOUSLY does not matter in any regard to a person's Christian life. I think only a fool gets dogmatic about it. I have not engaged in any argument about it for this reason, this has been totally an argument about why it shouldn't be argued lol. I didn't realize people are so messed up on this.. wow.. arguing about not arguing.

I could give all the mid or post trib rapture verses and logic, but I assume they are already on this forum somewhere, and I also assume unless you've been 100% spoon fed your knowledge by a bible college, you know them also.

That's where I got upset... you see, I assume you have intellegence, and knowledge of such things, until you ask... You assume that I'm.. how did you put it? Ah yes.. you assume I'm ignorant, even though I had already stated I was not. You have this view of most people sir? That they are ignorant unless they have talked to you about things? Man... that's some uber ego ya got there.

I have NOT said that the end times do not matter... I have NOT said anyone who holds the pre-trib, or the post-trib, or the mid-trib stance is wrong. I like how you don't seem to catch on though...

Maybe you should go back, read what I really posted instead of getting all hot under the collar and mis-representing my view. I'd ask you stop insinuating that I'm a liar. I asked a question earlier, that this all comes down too. It's an easy question, no trick to it. Go look it up.
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Whats the point of the rapture if its at the end and why would one be left in the feild and the other taken? I dont know for sure, but I would beleive in mid tribulation before I would beleive in post tribulation. The KJV also says that God is going to send a strong delusion that they would beleive a lie. Sounds to me like the " Lie" would be something the anti christ would tell the world. This doesn sound like a post tribulation to me.

Julia

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Whats the point of the rapture if its at the end and why would one be left in the feild and the other taken? I dont know for sure, but I would beleive in mid tribulation before I would beleive in post tribulation. The KJV also says that God is going to send a strong delusion that they would beleive a lie. Sounds to me like the " Lie" would be something the anti christ would tell the world. This doesn sound like a post tribulation to me.

Julia


Israel rejected God speaking "DIRECTLY" to them at Mt Sinai, preferring God speak to Moses, then Mose could tell them what God said.

Ex 20:19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.

Israel still rejects God speaking "DIRECTLY" to them through the "COMFORTER/HOLY GHOST".
Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 (GOD) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,

Israel didn't have a "COMFORTER" because of this, and it's the reason "PROPHETS" were sent to speak to Israel.

Lu 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, (by Jesus/God/Comforter/Holy Ghost)

Ec 4:1 So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of such as were oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter.

The "Comforter" is the "VOICE OF JESUS/GOD" speaking "DIRECTLY" to people,

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice,

Just as the "Prophet system" of leadership ended when Jesus came, the "LAST TRUMP" of the "VOICE OF THE COMFORTER" will "RAPTURE" the Church and Israel will return under the "law and "PROPHETS" system for the tribulation period, the "TWO WITNESSES", Moses/Elijah, will again speak to Israel "FOR GOD".

Ec 4:1 and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter.

As long as the "COMFORTER" is "IN THE WORLD", power is on the side of the church, so "HE" must be "TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY"...BEFORE".. the AC can "PREVAIL" over the saints of the tribulation period.

"LEADERSHIP" by both God (law and prophets) and Jesus (Comforter/Holy Ghost) do not function in the same time frame, at the same time, the reason the "prophets system" stopped when Jesus/Comforter came, and the "prophets" (Two witnesses) won't return until Jesus Leaves. (rapture)

God was married to Israel, but made a wedding for his SON, and it's Unlawful for a man (Jesus) to have his father's (God) "WIFE".

1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

In order for Israel to be married to Jesus they must become "Dead to the law", "Born again, New Creature.


Ro 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead,

As "CHASTISEMENT" God does to Israel exactly what Paul wrote.

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

At the time of the Rapture, Israel still hasn't accepted Jesus as Messiah, they haven't been "Born again", therefore they can't attend the "Lambs marriage supper" as the "BRIDE".

And since the "Comforter" is gone, "POWER" is on the side of their "OPPRESSOR", to "PREVAIL AGAINST THEM".

The "Church" only Spiritually crucifies the "old man" to destroy the "BODY OF SIN", because Jesus suffer the "STRIPES" of Chastisment in his "FLESH" for "Believers",

but as "CHASTISEMENT" for rejecting Jesus, God will require them to "LITERAL DIE" for Jesus's salvation as he had to die for their salvation. (drink of his cup)

God uses Satan/AC as a "ROD" to Chastise Israel.

Pr 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, (Satan/AC) the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.

When Moses cast down his "ROD" down to the earth it turned into a "SERPENT", so does the "ROD" God uses to chastise Israel.

Re 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Re 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman (israel) which brought forth the man child.(Jesus)


Unless the "SPIRIT" teaches you the scripture, it's doesn't pay to be "DOGMATIC".
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From Revelations 4:1 to Revelations 19:11 the church is not mentioned. Why? Because its in heaven, not on earth.

Jesus came in the air, 1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 4:18 and took it off the face of the earth up into heaven.

Surely, if Jesus' Church, as important as it is, was on this earth during that time it would have been mentioned.

No, Jesus' Church will not go thru the tribulations. But there will be people saved during that time, because of the stand they make for Jesus they will be murdered by the anti-christ.



That is the 2nd coming, (the Lords return), and the 1st ress. As is suggested in 1 Thess 4 vs 14. Gathered up in the air is consistent with Matt 24:31 and Jesus will gather those that belong to Him. (After the distress of those days) I am positive that all saints will go through tribulation and be gathered up on the last day. By evening of that very day the Lord will be reigning in Israel. Zach 14:6-9 Behold He will come like a thief on that last day Rev 16:15. The bowl judgments are the last of Gods judgments Rev 15:1 and are the judgments that plunge the beasts kingdom into darkness Rev 16:10

Randy
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Wrong, I humbly disagree, the saint will not go thru the tribulation period.

Reason, Jesus Chruch, the Holy Spirit, has to be taken out of the way before th Wicked on is revealed, when it is taken out of this world, all the saints will go with it.


7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2 Thess 2:7-8 (KJV)

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From Revelations 4:1 to Revelations 19:11 the church is not mentioned. Why? Because its in heaven, not on earth.

Jesus came in the air, 1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 4:18 and took it off the face of the earth up into heaven.

Surely, if Jesus' Church, as important as it is, was on this earth during that time it would have been mentioned.

No, Jesus' Church will not go thru the tribulations. But there will be people saved during that time, because of the stand they make for Jesus they will be murdered by the anti-christ.



The church is the body of Christ

Non of the below verses speak of the timing of the Lords return. They do speak of saints in the tribulation period.


Rev 12
17Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring?those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 13
7He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them.

7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

10He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

10If anyone is to go into captivity,
into captivity he will go.
If anyone is to be killed[c] with the sword,
with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.
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The church is the body of Christ

Non of the below verses speak of the timing of the Lords return. They do speak of saints in the tribulation period.


Rev 12
17Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring?those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 13
7He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them.

7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

10He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

10If anyone is to go into captivity,
into captivity he will go.
If anyone is to be killed[c] with the sword,
with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.


Those who come to Christ during the Tribulation are the saints referred to here.
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Wrong, I humbly disagree, the saint will not go thru the tribulation period.

Reason, Jesus Chruch, the Holy Spirit, has to be taken out of the way before th Wicked on is revealed, when it is taken out of this world, all the saints will go with it.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2 Thess 2:7-8 (KJV)


From Revelations 4:1 to Revelations 19:11 the church is not mentioned. Why? Because its in heaven, not on earth.

Jesus came in the air, 1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 4:18 and took it off the face of the earth up into heaven.

Surely, if Jesus' Church, as important as it is, was on this earth during that time it would have been mentioned.

No, Jesus' Church will not go thru the tribulations. But there will be people saved during that time, because of the stand they make for Jesus they will be murdered by the anti-christ.


What exactly is going to Convict them and save them?
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There are "TWO STICKS" in scripture, the "House of Joseph/Ephraim" (Church) and the "House of Judah" (Israel)

These "two sticks" aren't "jointed together" until the "CANA MARRIAGE" during the "Seventh day" or Mill Reign, that takes place here on earth after Jesus returns.

The "lamb's marriage" takes place in heaven during the trib.

Da 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:

As the "MOTHER" of the "MAN CHILD", Israel can't "MARRY HER SON", they must become "NEW CREATURES", "BORN AGAIN" "DEAD TO THE LAW", before they can be the "BRIDE OF CHRIST".

Ro 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead,

1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Satan/AC are used as a "ROD" to chastise Israel.

Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.

Pr 23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.

14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

You're not going to understand the Rapture until you first understand the purpose of the "tribulations", then you'll understand why the church is raptured "BEFORE" it starts.
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